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gejfsyd
Poland156 Posts
The hard thing is transitioning from roach-hydra-corrupor to something better. I think it should be done by dropping small amount of forces(like 16 roaches) in your oponents main/other undedended areas. It will do some damage(unlike attacking his army head on) and frre some suply. The other way is building spores/spines and canceling (or not) It will make your army bigger. Obviously having 500 larve waiting to be morphed is always good | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
I have decided to continue updating this until we zergs figure out the best way to deal with the 200/200 army, so that I DO have the possibility of just macroing up and beating a 200/200 toss, and the Overmind shall finally put its final blade into the heart of Aiur. | ||
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Airact
Finland366 Posts
On March 06 2011 19:17 Pandain wrote: Given the fact this has been bumped, I have decided to update it with some of my new ideas as well as a replay of that. I have decided to continue updating this until we zergs figure out the best way to deal with the 200/200 army, so that I DO have the possibility of just macroing up and beating a 200/200 toss, and the Overmind shall finally put its final blade into the heart of Aiur. If Ling/Bane Mass Expand style becomes viable in ZvP, as it is now(Can't get it to work atm T_T), Banelings are so supply-efficient that they just wreck Protoss Deathballs if you properly spread out and surround against Splash damage units. Ling/Baneling/Corruptor does much better against Stalker/Colossus/VR or Zealot/Colossus/VR than Roach/Hydra/Corruptor does as Banelings kinda end the battle before Colossi get critical amount of Splash done. In 200/200 vs. 200/200 that is. If they have resourses to get enough Sentries as well with the Colossus/VR ball, you should have a couple Ultras to kill the FFs. Not 12 - 2 are enough. | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
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moonylo
Germany68 Posts
However I prefer 2 different approaches. 1) Immobility. If the toss finally moves out, just counterattack with muta/ling. If he retreats, just leave. This of course is only possible when there are no templar, but guess how long it will take to transition from 2stargate 1 robo+bay into templar tech and having enough templar.. and probably all this on 2 base. Not really a possibility. 2) Go f***** kill him (or his expensive units). So the toss is sitting on 2 base and massing up voidrays and colossus. Why not just make a spire and go with a group of corrupters and kill some of his voidrays? It takes quite some time to build those numbers up and you can make a decent corrupter group quite fast. So why not send them in (of course theyre going to die.. but the push will be delayed very hard and by constantly going in you have 1) the scout infos and 2) you force him to make many stalkers and 3) you are able to overdrone (>80) and get enough resources. Or you just go and watch MooNs replays of the IEM and his hydra/ling drop play. | ||
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PrisMBender
United States7 Posts
He made something like 30 corrupters and 5ish broodlords with supplementary roaches if I remember correctly. He absolutely steamrolled minigun making it look effortless. Now one thing I think people need to realize especially OP is that the colosi/void ray deathball is strongest with 4-5 colosi and a ton of voids. The colosi pretty much cap out in effectiveness at 4-5 and then the void rays kill colosi counter of corrupters so they usually overmake voids and stalkers and get a minimal amount of colosi. OP said they would make 6-7 colosi and 4-5 voids. I would say the more scare version is reversed with 4-5 colosi and with that extra gas you dont use you can make 7-9 voids. Supplemented with stalkers this is scary as crap. Now what destiny did that zergs need to do in order to counter void ray/collosi is drop main with hydras and such. Hydras deal phonomenal dps and can destroy the main pretty fast if not dealt with. Furthermore, hydras deal enough dps that the toss will have to take a significant number of units to his base to counter. This slows him down a ton and can help you get to the corrupter/broodlord mix you want to have. | ||
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sixzeros
72 Posts
If you're considering pushing forward with ultras or banes, make sure they go together. Say 5 ultras, make sure they're rolling in together with at least 4+ banes per ultra. The ultras tank for your banes, they also move at the same speed which helps the tanking effect (unlike speedlings which run ahead and jam everything up). Together they can move in at the front lines taking down the zeal/sentry lines, allowing the ultras to move in onto the stalks. And there is mention of nydus, my experience with nydus is that by the time you get 10 units out of it, you have a deathball on top of it - so the most effective nydusing I've managed to pull off is with 8 banes in a nydus, build it, and rally it into the mineral lines, and the instant it spawns, hit the D key then anything else you get out of it is a bonus. The trick is to make sure the nydus is empty when you load it with banes, and THEN put your main troops into it, because nydus is generally a First In First Out device. This article might give you some ideas as to how Zerg needs to be handled, and why muta/ling/bling has been the most effective use of zerg so far http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare | ||
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loving it
Canada271 Posts
I'm just gonna put this video here. The video description basically explains it. A 120 supply army consisting of banelings and zerglings against a 120 supply army of protoss. Banelings have gave me reasonable success against the protoss ball recently. Even though it's not as cost effective as people would like, it doesn't matter when you're maxed out at 200/200 army. You're bound to stock up on resources, so you might as well have 50 banelings handy. This video is just an example of what potential the banelings have. Not neccessarily a real case scenario. Forcefields are the main concern, and so these guys pair well with ultralisks who can break down those forcefields. Even then, you have other options too such as flanking with banelings, overlord drops and burrow. | ||
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Airact
Finland366 Posts
Can I get away without Hydras in ZvP? -If I can, I can keep up with the Ling/Bane Mass Expand style, get 4th base around ~10-12min mark and completely stomp his Deathball by pure Ling/Bane/Corruptor numbers because Banes end the fight early and because I got more bases early. -If I cannot, I need to All-In him before the deathball because in my eyes, anything that has Roaches and/or Hydras can't effectively beat the ball due to me not having my 4th and possibly 5th base up in time to benefit enough from them. If I'm forced to get Roaches and/or Hydras due to various openings, I want suggestions on how to All-In the Protoss before he has the deathball. That's all. | ||
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farseerdk
Canada504 Posts
Also, mutas are gas heavy while roaches are mineral heavy, which allows you to make an army without wasting anything. Corruptor BL will leave you with 23948273948234 minerals. I realize the supply efficiency of this may be an issue, but with these fast, cheap units, you can constantly trade supplies with the protoss and keep him from reaching critical mass. Banelings... I somehow don't see them being effective against the massive colossus which are not light and are too big to be effectively splashed. Roaches are actually decent against colossus as they can tank more shots. Sure, they do nothing to voids, but that's why u have mutars. With a combination of burrow roaches and mutas... think of the harass potential! | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
Its good for now but i think it will fall out of style because any kind of engagement in a choke with decent FF wrecks it. Its supply effective but very situational and cost inefficient. | ||
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moonylo
Germany68 Posts
Cant comment on wether mass ling/baneling works or not. No one in my league is playing it it seems -.- | ||
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Airact
Finland366 Posts
On March 07 2011 06:01 uSnAmplified wrote: the ling/banling is kind of FOTM and only effective on the maps with big open areas, especially the new temple more then anything. Its more taking advantage of protoss dropping sentrys for more gas in Vray/colossi, i have no problem with it when i play standard gateway/colossi with good FF. Its good for now but i think it will fall out of style because any kind of engagement in a choke with decent FF wrecks it. Its supply effective but very situational and cost inefficient. Well I don't know, but would engaging in a choke with FFs break Zerg armies anyway? Well, if Ling/Bane works, it works. If it eventually doesn't, I'll change to something else. I think I'll use Hydra drops more if I'm ever against a 1base Stargate opener. | ||
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nairolF
1 Post
I have a lot of difficulties as a zerg against void/colossus and just 5 minutes ago, a friend gave me a good idee(according to me). Instead of thinking about which units make to counter it, some overseers can stop the production of robo/stargate units with contaminate. Sure some will die, but it could give you the time you needed to make whatever response you want to. I've heard on some MrBitter coaching session a pro saying that you should keep the number of colossi/void rays as low as you can, even if you have to trade more ressources doing it. If the key is to keep the number low, overseers could help with it, right? I would like to see your opinion on that. | ||
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Airact
Finland366 Posts
On March 07 2011 06:24 nairolF wrote: Hey TL. I have a lot of difficulties as a zerg against void/colossus and just 5 minutes ago, a friend gave me a good idee(according to me). Instead of thinking about which units make to counter it, some overseers can stop the production of robo/stargate units with contaminate. Sure some will die, but it could give you the time you needed to make whatever response you want to. I've heard on some MrBitter coaching session a pro saying that you should keep the number of colossi/void rays as low as you can, even if you have to trade more ressources doing it. If the key is to keep the number low, overseers could help with it, right? I would like to see your opinion on that. I have mixed opinions about Overseers contaminating the buildings. The Protoss is kinda safe if you use gas for Overseers(100 gas for one is kinda much, even if you go Ling/Bane style). You basically cut into your Corruptor, Baneling or Hydralisk numbers if you go Overseers and the opponent can just camp nearby his buildings, or warp them in safe so that he can defend them. If you suggest this as a tactic to use with a couple Overseers that scout at the same time, yeah why not do that. If you suggest that as a core strategy part, it's a bit too vulnerable. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
On March 07 2011 06:16 Airact wrote: You are neglecting to think about how good FFs can stop bling surrounds from being effective in the wider open maps, the choke just exponentially makes the build worse.Well I don't know, but would engaging in a choke with FFs break Zerg armies anyway? Well, if Ling/Bane works, it works. If it eventually doesn't, I'll change to something else. I think I'll use Hydra drops more if I'm ever against a 1base Stargate opener. The only reason it works is because protoss are more interested in an attack move composition then placing decent forcefields. | ||
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Airact
Finland366 Posts
On March 07 2011 07:01 uSnAmplified wrote: You are neglecting to think about how good FFs can stop bling surrounds from being effective in the wider open maps, the choke just exponentially makes the build worse. The only reason it works is because protoss are more interested in an attack move composition then placing decent forcefields. On some maps, Roaches are probably the only choice vP. Those maps being Backwater Gulch(was it?) and Delta Quadrant at least. Arguably Xel'Naga Caverns as well because of rocks everywhere and pretty chok-ish mid-ground. I would also say Typhon Peaks(whatever it's called) is one. I don't see a major problem going Ling/Bane on Shattered Temple and Metalopolis because of the former being so open and the latter having easy backstab routes and easy to take expansions, as well as some openness. For the other point: The game evolves and we don't really know what builds are going to win and what are not. Protoss FF micro might get better but Zerg unit control might also get better forcing more and more FFs off. And in late-game if I see Sentries, I just get a couple Ultralisks out so yeah. I'm not particularly afraid of Sentries in the deathball and you probably know the reason. There are not enough of them and if there are, it's not a deathball anymore. | ||
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hun13
55 Posts
with the vision and speed creep grantz flanking is much easier for a zerg, combine this with some queen play and you will ensure decent creep while having some very tanky units to "occupy" protoss with while flanking. I have a replay here using queens, creep vision, and flanking to take a LESS than 200 Zerg army to kill a 200 Toss deathball (voids, stalkers, colossus). Play isnt perfect, but its still a good replay that shows off some potential. Its a diamond Zerg(me) vs a Master Toss http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194220 | ||
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sixzeros
72 Posts
but I was a bit disturbed that 25 minutes into the game the master level toss had barely any upgrades, was only 1:1:0 on the ground and 000 in the air and you had been ahead on the upgrades all game. I suspect this was the main reason you got the upper hand on him. I'll take the lesson though, upgrade hard, dont fight head on, and you'll win more games. | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
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