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On February 23 2012 15:58 MaverickSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 14:20 GWBuffalo wrote:
Is anyone else having problems ZvP on cloud kingdom? I have not beaten a single Protoss on that map. It just seems like a clusterfuck of chokes everywhere. Any good discussions somewhere, or ZvP replays to watch? (I haven't found anything)
This map is just driving me crazy. Protoss just has a choke to retreat to EVERY-FUCKING-WHERE. I know this map is the TL contest winner, so the problem must be with me... but seriously, I just don't see balanced ZvP on this map. Flanking/surounding may not be totally impossible, but it's harder to pull off than just about any other map in the pool. How would you know that it's not balanced? Are you GM in Korea? ID and char code pls
FFS, do you have the reading comprehension of a squirrel?
(1) Look at my sig
(2) I wrote this: "I know this map is the TL contest winner, so the problem must be with me..."
(3) I wrote: "but seriously, I just don't see balanced ZvP on this map". "I don't see" is my personal experience, clearly not equivalent to "there cannot be".
(4) I asked the question, because I assume there must be a good way to handle the map. Otherwise, I would not pose it as a question.
Where in the world does your comment even come from in relation to my post?
I honestly want some help with this map ZvP, because I'm getting completely owned.
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Hi, I was wondering the best way to deal with mass chargelot/high temp/archon in tvp. I usually end up having MMM, with a few ghosts, and have to kite backwards as far as possible. However if I am being attacked, I dont have the kind of space I need to do that. Would you recommend a tank or two or maybe a few banshees? I dont like banshees, because feedback kind of rapes them, and it is expensive to start producing them, when I dont have the tech labs, but I am getting kind of desperate. It seems to me because the terran high tech units, such as banshees, thors, battlecruisers, and ravens all need energy, they are extremely vulnerable to feedback, making them useless.
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Hey guys,
I play protoss and i usually go FFE. I've been having quite some troubles with baneling busts, and thats just because i don't go he's going banelings, when i find out i know how to stop it. My question is: How do i know the zerg is going for a baneling bust if my scout can't get further than his expansion?
Thanks in advance.
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On February 23 2012 14:20 GWBuffalo wrote:
Is anyone else having problems ZvP on cloud kingdom? I have not beaten a single Protoss on that map. It just seems like a clusterfuck of chokes everywhere. Any good discussions somewhere, or ZvP replays to watch? (I haven't found anything)
This map is just driving me crazy. Protoss just has a choke to retreat to EVERY-FUCKING-WHERE. I know this map is the TL contest winner, so the problem must be with me... but seriously, I just don't see balanced ZvP on this map. Flanking/surounding may not be totally impossible, but it's harder to pull off than just about any other map in the pool.
I'm having the same problem on this map. I think I will be trying to go for a more aggressive mutalisk style to keep the protoss in their base while I take more of the map. I think flanks near the map center are likely more effective than near to entrance to the main base.
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On February 23 2012 23:27 blug wrote:
Howdi mate, it is indeed more economical to open up hatchery first in any matchup, however, you must consider how safe it is depending on what race you are vsing.
That's weird because in TvZ I always go for a 3 marine bunker pressure and when my opponent opens 14hatch/14pool, he seems to be much safer compared to all other openings (barring some super late pools). First of all his hatch might even finish before my scouting SCV found him, therefore denying good bunker positions. Secondly, his lings are out very early and I often find myself unable to do any sort of damage.
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On February 24 2012 06:04 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:51 moregamethanSEGA wrote:On February 24 2012 05:03 roymarthyup wrote:On February 24 2012 04:50 moregamethanSEGA wrote:On February 24 2012 04:08 roymarthyup wrote:
thors are highly effective against gateway units for-cost and for-food
feedback is the only reason thors are not viable
however what may be really strong against toss is trying to do 2base thor rushes which eliminate forcefields and also force the toss to get fast HT's to counter it, however if he got fast HT's he cant get fast collossi, and if he did get fast collossi thors are strong against that.
2base timings with thors may have strong promise in TvP. thors DECIMATE gateway units for cost and the attack can hit long before a toss can have 2-2 Worst and most incorrect statement(s)... ever. Feedback is not THAT useful against thors. Thors are too slow to go cross position, hence a 2-base timing will arrive prob when he has 1-2 colosi and you have thor marine... HT's dont counter Thors (where did you get this false information?), Robo/SG tech does (or is SUPPOSED to). Meaning for all intent and purpose, Colosi counter thors, even with 50mm cannon upgrade (there are youtube videos to prove this - go watch them). Standard toss opens FE into 3 gate robo or just 3 gate robo, either way when the obs sees what you have, you will get pwnd by immortals, not HT's (unless he is in bronze/silver, or you). Lastly, dt rush would OWN this. 3 gate voidray would OWN this. Again, the answer is blizzard dropped the ball, and pigeon-holed terrans into bio vs protoss if they want a macro game. For the record, the only toss units (upgrades included) that don't own bio are the stalker, immortal, observer, voidray (after early-game), and pheonix. Well guess what, they buffed the immortal and the pheonix such that now pretty much every single toss units outranges terran and owns biological units. The ONLY reason zergs dont complain is because they have tier 3 units (broodlord) which levels the playing field lategame, and the transition actually MAKES SENSE -> corrupters to counter colosi then morph corrupters to broods when colosi count has been lowered, or after/before big engagement. Here's the BEST IDEA IN THE WORLD BLIZZARD. Allow two units to combine (like an archon - OMG oringinal, right?) that would allow a transition to a lategame beefy unit. For instance: Thor combines with 2 vikings to create tier 3 unit (think Voltron) which has an air AoE. This would somewhat incentivise stargate use in TvP which would be cool outside of VR all-ins. Imho, 'pure' lategame should involve the synergy of all 3 techs, not just 100% robo/twilight against tier 1 terran units with air support which is useless otherwise (unlike the corrupter which MORPHES INTO SOMETHING LATEGAME). How often do you see a marcro game in a ZvP where zerg only makes lings (or roaches), infestors, and corrupters - and doesnt make broods...) It sounds just as dumb as I feel it would play out in a game. You NEED a single viable (and transitionable) tier 3 unit for terran, blizzard. Eat some shrooms if need be and figure it out - use your imagination. Sorry if I offended anyone. i find it hard to believe you play terran every pro terran will tell you THE REASON thors are not viable and THE REASON mech is not viable lategame is because 1 HT, with feedback, will deal 600 damage in a second to 3 thors. 2 food dealing 600 damage in a second to 18food worth of units is the reason thors suck. every pro terran will tell you that stargate/robo tech is NOT the problem. immortals (4food) counters a thor (6food), however a thor (6food) easily beats 8food of gateway units with its high dps. Also, barracks units destroy immortals as long as forcefields are gone (which thors crush) so thors are NOT BAD against stargate/robo tech as long as you have bio to back it up. So it balances out considering you can combine thors with barracks units doing a 2base thor attack (like a standard bio attack but with a couple thors instead of medivacs, both cost the same) imo is something that could work pretty well, and i should probably try it out more against toss because you would hit at a timing where he can have maybe 2 collossi but you have mass bio with stim plus thors and all his gateway units will melt instantly. and you hit at a time before thors get to 200 energy other than 2base thor attack thors become useless once they get 200 energy and the toss has feedback I find it hard to believe you play... starcraft. You are assuming lots of seemingly incorrect things. For instance: 1) Only a max energy thor would take 200 damage, let alone 3 with max energy, which would never happen based on your supposed 2-base attack timings, plus you could just emp your own thors - sorry dude PROS do that. Also thors have 400 HP, meaning you will still have 200 HP - which is a lot. This is also why HT's DO NOT COUNTER BC's. Contrary to popular belief. 2) A single thor beats 8 food of gateway units... since when does that ever translate to actual game? 3) The only 'bio' you will be making with your thors are marines, which will get so so so owned by colosi/stalkers or chargelots - he doesnt even need immortals. 4) Thor is only 1 component of mech, HT get crushed by both tanks and hellions. 5) You start talking about mech and then slipperly slope into bio/mech? What IS YOUR POINT? Thors suck vs P? Duh. Mech sucks vs P? Duh. Did you really make this post based on the fact I said HT's dont hard counter thors? 6) If Mech bio was so good how come no one uses it (unless they 1-1-1 all-in)? 7) "so thors are NOT BAD against stargate/robo tech as long as you have bio to back it up" -> Thors ARE terrible vs Voids and Carriers. Terrible vs immortals AND colosi. Adding marines doesnt change the equation. Its like saying marines arent bad against colosi IF you have vikings... no they suck vs colosi. period. 8) HOW DOES THIS TRANSITION TO MID-LATEGAME?????? Let's say I do your attack timing... and it doenst KILL him. Do I 'gg'? I probably should given I cant retreat with slow thors and marines with no medivac (but have stem - the concept alone makes me facepalm). It's like a zerg doing some 2 base hydra attack - so immobile and a dumb idea in general which is why you never see it. 9) Thors range is 7 vs Colosi (more than 7), so in your 'battle' what exactly is hitting the colosi again? The slow thors? The fragile marines? LOL. The answer is NOTHING is hitting them.Even if the thors kill all gateways units your marines are dead, then your thors are dead because they have no support. Then toss warps in 6 zealots and boom, no more army for you. ...I grow weary at this point so I will stop and leave you with this: "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." When you truely understand what that means come back and lets have some coffee and cigs together while we play backgammon a the local starbucks. yup. knew it. you dont play terran. at least not terran at a level higher than diamond. ht's not only are the counter to bc's, but they are the singular reason why BC's are 99% nonviable only EMP'ing your BC's to prevent feedback (which isnt viable with thors because it takes too many ghosts) is the one way where BC's might be viable. thats where that 1% of possible viability comes from. other than that, having a 2food unit deal 200 damage to 6food units with a 50 energy cast is simply too powerful, too effective, and the reason every terran goes MMM all game TvP Thors are nonviable period because it takes too many ghosts to keep thor energy down. Show nested quote +
7) "so thors are NOT BAD against stargate/robo tech as long as you have bio to back it up"
-> Thors ARE terrible vs Voids and Carriers. Terrible vs immortals AND colosi. Adding marines doesnt change the equation. Its like saying marines arent bad against colosi IF you have vikings... no they suck vs colosi. period.
sorry i didnt completely explain what i meant, so this is your one argument that has some truth to it at first, i said stargate/robo tech was not the problem with thors, then i said quote """so thors are NOT BAD against stargate/robo tech as long as you have bio to back it up. So it balances out considering you can combine thors with barracks units""" now if you read that qoute, you probably think im saying thors are not bad against robo/stargate tech. thats not exactly what i meant. heres what i mean Thors are ONLY "not bad" to get against stargate/robo tech as long as the enemy also has alot of gateway tech with his robo/stargate tech. This game is about balanced armies consisting of multiple techs. If the enemy has ALL stargate/robo tech, then thors are bad to get against that. however if your enemy has a mixed army, then you yourself getting a mixed army with thors can also be good against that. If your enemy has stargate tech with gateway tech, then you can get some thors to counter the gateway tech, and some bio to counter the stargate tech. if he has more stargate tech, you get more bio. If he has masses and masses of gateway tech, getting 6 thors wouldnt be bad against it because THORS ARE GOOD AGAINST GATEWAY UNITS however, this does not hold any truth once thors get 200 energy, which happens 100% of the time lategame when high level players will scout and try to build units to react and usually there is a period where players are moving around the map and trying to find a good position for 60 seconds. in this time, thors will gain almost 200 energy (and thors build early will get 200 energy) which causes feedback to COMPLETELY CRUSH any army with a couple thors in it because now 2food of templars are taking 18food of thors and cutting their hp in half. thats a huge hard counter when only 2food of templar can do 200 damage feedbacks to 6food thors
"so this is your one argument that has some truth to it"
-REALLY?
You are crazy obsessed with HT's dude. Apparently, they need nerf because what you are saying is that high templar counter everything terran makes. That's cute. Let me guess... you are masters... protoss?
Who cares about the food cost man, honestly.
100 High Templars, maxed out on energy, cannot kill a single thor or BC. Yet they are the "single reason they aren't used in matchup." You truely are the most ignorant person ever...
Try cost, build time, transition timing, opportunity cost, aka the fact you have to build 1 starport with techlab for EACH BC... these are all reasons they aren't used much (if at all).
I suggest you play a 4v4 and max on thors while some dude get stalker, HT - YOU WILL OWN HIM... but i suppose that's 'beneath you.'
You are also ignoring the fact that
a) the same logic you just stated applies to bio as well, so why go BIO? Omg is that a paradox I sense?
b) mech can be... repaired... a lot... quickly... you should prob bring scvs... cause you're masters, right?
c) make a ghost dude and snipe the feedbacking punks before they are in range of bcs.
d) the HT is a GATEWAY UNIT, DUDE
In the end though I dont even know what we are arguing about, I am saying "mech sucks" not because of HT but because Blizzard sucks cause they can't figure out how to tweak metagame right now with current units (hence they are basically removing the worthless Thor unit in HoTs and making hellions more viable mid-late game. While you are saying "mech sucks" because a single unit counters all terran tier 3 units.
Therefore what we can agree on is this (lets come together, my terran friend):
IF YOU ARE GOING TO NERF SNIPE FOR THIS VERY REASON AGAINST ZERG WHY NOT DO THE SAME THING FOR HT???? Oh wait, cause the people at blizzard are being hypocrites and are enforcing double-standards? Lategame TvP is broken for this reason. If you are going to accept the ghost nerf then you are inherently agreeing with me.
They 'fix' broken ZvP with mutas by giving range to a unit that was supposed to counter it anyways because HoTs comes out whenever down the road and they can't wait that long... but they can wait for me to just go BIO vs toss for next 365 days? Frack that. Please so something NOW, so i can actually do TRANSITIONS other than:
BIO->MEDIVAC->GHOST ->LOSE
or my personal favorite
BIO -> Ghost -> LOSE.
and completely ignore half my units in every single matchup cause marines and mauraders are good.
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On February 24 2012 03:25 Risljaninasim wrote:
Hey guys,
I play protoss and i usually go FFE. I've been having quite some troubles with baneling busts, and thats just because i don't go he's going banelings, when i find out i know how to stop it. My question is: How do i know the zerg is going for a baneling bust if my scout can't get further than his expansion?
Thanks in advance.
An unusually high Zergling count is a solid tell. I usually research Hallucinate as soon as WG is done to get a solid scout in, until then I just keep my attention on the front. You usually build a lot of Sentries before making anything else when you FFE, so as long as you are focusing and get your force fields down in time, you shouldn't have anything to fear from a Baneling bust.
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PvZ
best thing to do vs baneling bust if i forge fast expanded?
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Match Up: PvP
Question: I have just encountered an opening that I hadn't seen before. Pretty much a standard opening with the 2nd Pylon and 2nd Gateway in a Proxy location. This allowed my opponent to have 1 Zealot and 2 Stalkers at my base at a really unexpected time. My question: Has anyone played this style or any experience with it? Is it worth it?
Map: Cloud Kingdom LE
Replay: JRex vs PeggyHill
+ Show Spoiler +I am JRex and PeggyHill is doing this opening I have never seen before.
Thanks in advance for any feedback.
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On February 22 2012 10:29 Gugg wrote:
Is an average of 80 apm good for being in Bronze?
dont care about your apm. If you win games then its fine. If you lose games because of multitasking then something is wrong, but apm is only something to worry about then, not if you are winning, or losing games for other reasons. Otherwise work on macro.
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how should you arrange your production structures as terran?
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I need to learn how to cheese so that I won't be very predictable when playing with friends. I'm a random player, so whatever help can be given about your respective races would be awesome.
Right now, all I know how to do is the 2 rax bunker pressure vs a protoss FE.
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On February 24 2012 03:55 mind0killer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 14:20 GWBuffalo wrote:
Is anyone else having problems ZvP on cloud kingdom? I have not beaten a single Protoss on that map. It just seems like a clusterfuck of chokes everywhere. Any good discussions somewhere, or ZvP replays to watch? (I haven't found anything)
This map is just driving me crazy. Protoss just has a choke to retreat to EVERY-FUCKING-WHERE. I know this map is the TL contest winner, so the problem must be with me... but seriously, I just don't see balanced ZvP on this map. Flanking/surounding may not be totally impossible, but it's harder to pull off than just about any other map in the pool. I'm having the same problem on this map. I think I will be trying to go for a more aggressive mutalisk style to keep the protoss in their base while I take more of the map. I think flanks near the map center are likely more effective than near to entrance to the main base.
Some notes on this map:
- The natural has a nice choke making spines very effective at shutting down any sort of aggression. Although this is a nice feature, it actually isn't terribly important for you because protoss will almost always FFE on this map which essentially allows you to grab your 3rd relatively early.
- Do not let any probes hide on the map. This is a no brainer on any map, but it is so easy to deny on this map there is no reason to let it happen. Sneaking a probe out is almost impossible for toss if you have the towers and not-retarded ling positioning. Do not let probes sneak by and get a free scout or to place future proxies. ***Please do not overlook the importance of denying probes from hiding on the map.
- Creep spread. Again this seems like common sense but it really needs to be emphasized on this map. Not only is your 3rd far from your natural, it is completely vulnerable to several avenues of attacks and chokes that protoss can abuse. Holding your 3rd against an early all-in will be very difficult without good creep spread. It is not enough to connect to your 3rd, it's also really important you get your creep to the center of the map. It appears difficult but it really isn't. Getting to the downhill portion is well, as simple as it sounds, but the uphill is just as easy thanks to the xel'naga towers which you critically, should/need-to have control over (more on this later).
- This map isn't the greatest for surrounds, but it is very good for counter attacking and run-bys. A toss who sits on two base is almost untouchable on this map. However, once he attempts to secure his 3rd, you now have 3 avenues to attack him. Pressure his 3rd like crazy (this is not easy to wall as toss!), attack from all 3 angles and pull his army back and forth between his 3rd and his natural. This is obviously not impossible for the toss to defend and not a game ending move by any means but it is definitely a feature that favours you and one that you should consider taking advantage of.
- The corner expos, along with the 4 expansions in the center of the map are controlled by whomever holds the center of the map. For the early to mid game, this should be you. You can secure these one after another relatively quickly (but not early unless you want to die) and apply a lot of economic pressure on to the protoss. The corner expos in particular are very hard for toss to secure / pressure. For this reason it is pretty much a game deciding factor if you are capable of controlling the center or not. If you let the toss claim control of the xel'nagas/center, suddenly all your expansions (minus your main/nat/3rd are completely vulnerable. He can easily swing from one to another and there isn't much you can do about it if you have the weaker army.
- I wouldn't go mutas on this map simply because there isn't actually a lot of dead space for your mutas to make use of their mobility. There is only one angle you can actually fly into the natural and toss can just throw a few cannons in that one spot. The 3rd and main are essentially connected and there is no dead space for you to sneak from the 3rd into the main. Even if you suicide-charge / catch-him-out-of-position blink stalkers will get from the 3rd to the main instantaneously and now you have nowhere to run with your mutas. There is no dead space. You can't do damage without committing, and you can't run if you commit. I don't think this is a good map for mutas at all.
- If a toss manages to secure his 3rd, his 4th is a couple steps outside his door which leads to some control over the center, which leads to an easy 5th, which leads to more control over the center, and tons of avenues to attack you. If you let him get to this stage without the means of beating his deathball head on, you're pretty screwed.
Hope you found something useful!
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On February 24 2012 09:41 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
how should you arrange your production structures as terran?
Preference really, just make sure they're arranged in such a way they're not so close that addons will block units. Most efficient way to save space is to make downward rows of rax, with 1 hex of space between rows. You can also choose to add later production at expansions, which saves you from losing all of it in a base race, but also leaves it vulnerable at an undefended expo.
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Whats the best way to deal with an engineering bay block(blocking your natural that is) in zvt? do i just put down a pool? pull some drones?
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On February 24 2012 16:54 RedHelix wrote:
Whats the best way to deal with an engineering bay block(blocking your natural that is) in zvt? do i just put down a pool? pull some drones?
Your second overlord should ALWAYS be positioned in your natural expo to see if enemy is building something there.
When u see for example scv, which is trying to build an ebay u can just pull 2 drones and stop it before its placed.
If ebay is not scouted and almost done (allowing terran to cancel it), the best response would be speedling expand instead of hatch first.
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On February 24 2012 20:58 haaz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 16:54 RedHelix wrote:
Whats the best way to deal with an engineering bay block(blocking your natural that is) in zvt? do i just put down a pool? pull some drones? Your second overlord should ALWAYS be positioned in your natural expo to see if enemy is building something there. When u see for example scv, which is trying to build an ebay u can just pull 2 drones and stop it before its placed. If ebay is not scouted and almost done (allowing terran to cancel it), the best response would be speedling expand instead of hatch first.
Oh yeah I always have that overlord there, it's just that for this method to work i would need to have the drones already at the bottom of my ramp in order to stop it, because as it is now the scv just comes up and plants the engi bay down, i guess it's going to have to be normal to have those drones down there early? because that hatch HAS to go down or everything goes wrong from there...hellions start to run in because the spine wont be there yet, second queen will be very delayed, etc.
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I scouted nothing in his base in pvp and assumed 2 gate proxy but really he just done a normal build with his gate and core out of sight, already made 2 gates and chrono zealots when i found his buildings near his base so i was behind. What should i do if this happens/ how can i determine if he is going 2gate proxy to prevent this?
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I have a couple questions:
If a cloaked ghost is going to nuke somewhere, and you kill the ghost that is calling down the nuke, does the nuke still land?
Long Question but shorter answer: I am a bronze league terran, and in replays I have often found that my opponent had a couple ninja expansions that I didn't know about. I usually scout no expansion and just assume that my opponent's macro sucks, as is often the case, but as I am getting better and playing more silver and gold players, their macro is not so bad, so I can't always assume that they just have bad macro. What is the best way to make sure my opponent does not get a lot of ninja expansions? And in addition, is there any easy way to tell whether my opponent's macro is awful or if he is just tricking me? I could really use some help with this.
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On February 25 2012 11:08 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
I have a couple questions:
If a cloaked ghost is going to nuke somewhere, and you kill the ghost that is calling down the nuke, does the nuke still land?
Long Question but shorter answer: I am a bronze league terran, and in replays I have often found that my opponent had a couple ninja expansions that I didn't know about. I usually scout no expansion and just assume that my opponent's macro sucks, as is often the case, but as I am getting better and playing more silver and gold players, their macro is not so bad, so I can't always assume that they just have bad macro. What is the best way to make sure my opponent does not get a lot of ninja expansions? And in addition, is there any easy way to tell whether my opponent's macro is awful or if he is just tricking me? I could really use some help with this.
if the ghost is killed the nuke won't land. i'm not sure if the nuke has appeared onscreen and the ghost is killed though, so hopefully someone can confirm.
basically just be diligent about scouting expansions. in the late game this is super important, but if you ever get that feeling that "is this guy just terrible or....?" always investigate the "or"! for example, only having 1 pylon when i scout a protoss isn't a "lol he's bad" situation, it's an "oh shit where's the proxy"
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EPT
