EPT2) In PvZ FFE, what is the most solid opening method (vs 15 hatch or 14gas/pool)? The one I saw Emperor do against Dimaga on Xelnaga Caverns was 9 Pylon, 15 Forge, 16 Pylon (natural), 18 Nexus/Cannon/Cannon/Gateway, 19 Gas, 20 Gas. Overall is this a good build to use for FFE? Would it be different if it was on Taldarim where there is a choke at the natural?
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bankai
362 Posts
2) In PvZ FFE, what is the most solid opening method (vs 15 hatch or 14gas/pool)? The one I saw Emperor do against Dimaga on Xelnaga Caverns was 9 Pylon, 15 Forge, 16 Pylon (natural), 18 Nexus/Cannon/Cannon/Gateway, 19 Gas, 20 Gas. Overall is this a good build to use for FFE? Would it be different if it was on Taldarim where there is a choke at the natural? | ||
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Geiko
France2012 Posts
The first pylon is obviously on the low ground so I can't go into standard play once I scout the early pool so how should I go about defending ? Now on the good maps (tda, shakuras or even scrap) I can throw a panic wall and expand later, but on open maps like xelnaga, I try to wall myself in with cannon + forge plus gateway but then I am totaly unable to expand for a very long time, and since I went forge first, zerg is free to do anything he wants while I am on one base with very late tech. Any ideas would be appreciated  | ||
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Geiko
France2012 Posts
On July 22 2011 08:46 bankai wrote: 1) Can the PvP 3 stalker build that Cecilsunkure posted be used on maps with wide ramps (e.g. scrap station)? If not, what is a good solid build to use? 2) In PvZ FFE, what is the most solid opening method (vs 15 hatch or 14gas/pool)? The one I saw Emperor do against Dimaga on Xelnaga Caverns was 9 Pylon, 15 Forge, 16 Pylon (natural), 18 Nexus/Cannon/Cannon/Gateway, 19 Gas, 20 Gas. Overall is this a good build to use for FFE? Would it be different if it was on Taldarim where there is a choke at the natural? 1) no it can't. Actually, it can if you're feeling lucky and you feel that your 3 stalkers will be able to scout every possible location for a proxy (and trust me there are a lot). It would seem that for the time being, the only solid build is the standard 4 gate (and I'm not sure how many extra probes you can slip in if you are playing it defensively, really depends at what level you are playing.) 2) On choke maps, you're better off getting the nexus before the second pylon (9pylon, 13 forge, 17 nexus 17 gate 17 cannon). On other maps I don't know (see my question above). I've been doing a 9pylon 15 nexus 15 forge 17 pylon 19 cannon x2 build that I stole from watching Anhic's replays and it works really well for me. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On July 22 2011 08:53 Geiko wrote: 1) no it can't. Actually, it can if you're feeling lucky and you feel that your 3 stalkers will be able to scout every possible location for a proxy (and trust me there are a lot). It would seem that for the time being, the only solid build is the standard 4 gate (and I'm not sure how many extra probes you can slip in if you are playing it defensively, really depends at what level you are playing.) 2) On choke maps, you're better off getting the nexus before the second pylon (9pylon, 13 forge, 17 nexus 17 gate 17 cannon). On other maps I don't know (see my question above). I've been doing a 9pylon 15 nexus 15 forge 17 pylon 19 cannon x2 build that I stole from watching Anhic's replays and it works really well for me. Thanks Geiko I was trying to avoid ever having to do 4 gate, but alas, it seems unavoidable in this instance! So on choke maps, if I use your suggested build, does that work against 14 pool or 15 hatch? If its 15 hatch, do I skip the 13 Forge you suggest, and go straight for 17 Nexus, then 17 Forge/Gate/Cannon?? Also when do you get your gas?? | ||
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JabbaDaButt
United States77 Posts
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
On July 22 2011 09:18 JabbaDaButt wrote: In ZvT, about what time should I be sacrificing an overlord to scout the base to when I scouted a standard gas opening with the drone at the beginning of the game? Around 30 suppylish, though a lot of it is personal preference. Nonetheless, that timing should be a general idea for you. | ||
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harhar!
Germany190 Posts
On July 22 2011 08:00 harhar! wrote: Thx for the answer. Okay let me get this straight (ignoring the reaper for now): I push when I have 2 Rauders and concussive just finishes. CASE1: No nexus. -> retreat immediatly CASE2: Nexus warping -> we can assume its some kind of 2gate, 3gate or 1 gate+ robo expand, probably not 1-gate, because that would be a pretty slow Nexus, so I poke the ramp, see if I could kill that in an open battle: 2.1: Too much stuff -> retreat 2.2: Not so much stuff -> ??? should I attack immediatly or pull ~5 SCVs? build bunker? CASE3: Nexus done -> 2.2 Ill just quote myself here to push. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
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bankai
362 Posts
Where do I go to watch streams of pro players? E.g. If i really like LiquidTyler's play and wanna see all his games, where do I go for this?? Also, who is a good pro player that has a solid/safe/macro-oriented play in PvZ? Nothing too funky, just shows similar styles every game and wins with it  | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On July 22 2011 08:47 Geiko wrote: I've been starting to try to incroporate Forge expands or nexus first builds in all the ladder maps. I have a good understanding of how I should defend all the standard timing pushes zergs can do in reaction to scouting the early nexus, but I'm at a bit of a loss when dealing with earlyish pools (9-10) zerg. The first pylon is obviously on the low ground so I can't go into standard play once I scout the early pool so how should I go about defending ? Now on the good maps (tda, shakuras or even scrap) I can throw a panic wall and expand later, but on open maps like xelnaga, I try to wall myself in with cannon + forge plus gateway but then I am totaly unable to expand for a very long time, and since I went forge first, zerg is free to do anything he wants while I am on one base with very late tech. Any ideas would be appreciated As I mentioned in my previous post, in terms of FFE on open natural maps I have seen Emperor do the 9 Pylon and 15 Forge in his main (next to Nexus), then the 16 Pylon in natural and 18 Nexus. So if a early pool comes, you can cannon up. Doing this obviously slows down your expansion, but then his economy is slowed down too for doing the early pool. Not sure if that is the answer ur looking for but hope it helps! | ||
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XiGua
Sweden3085 Posts
Upgrade armor or attack if going for an timing attack? I heard somewhere that armor is always more benefitial so that's why I always upgrade armor in my engi-bay first. But seeing as pros always upgrade attack, I start to wonder. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On July 22 2011 08:47 Geiko wrote: I've been starting to try to incroporate Forge expands or nexus first builds in all the ladder maps. I have a good understanding of how I should defend all the standard timing pushes zergs can do in reaction to scouting the early nexus, but I'm at a bit of a loss when dealing with earlyish pools (9-10) zerg. The first pylon is obviously on the low ground so I can't go into standard play once I scout the early pool so how should I go about defending ? Now on the good maps (tda, shakuras or even scrap) I can throw a panic wall and expand later, but on open maps like xelnaga, I try to wall myself in with cannon + forge plus gateway but then I am totaly unable to expand for a very long time, and since I went forge first, zerg is free to do anything he wants while I am on one base with very late tech. Any ideas would be appreciated Make a low ground wall. I know MLG maps are annoying with the depot, but throw down extra gates and pylons and leave as small a hole as you can that you can block off with some probes. When your cannon finishes you can cancel the extra gateways and pylons. Then make a second cannon that's in range of your initial cannon but can protect your future natural nexus. Then place your nexus and continue on as normal. The trick is to not panic and keep making probes. You won't be behind in econ, and your tech will be faster now too since you've gotten your gateway so early. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On July 22 2011 14:03 bankai wrote: As I mentioned in my previous post, in terms of FFE on open natural maps I have seen Emperor do the 9 Pylon and 15 Forge in his main (next to Nexus), then the 16 Pylon in natural and 18 Nexus. So if a early pool comes, you can cannon up. Doing this obviously slows down your expansion, but then his economy is slowed down too for doing the early pool. Not sure if that is the answer ur looking for but hope it helps! This is only necessary/good against 6/7 pools. Against 9/10 pools it's unnecessary. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On July 22 2011 09:13 bankai wrote: So on choke maps, if I use your suggested build, does that work against 14 pool or 15 hatch? If its 15 hatch, do I skip the 13 Forge you suggest, and go straight for 17 Nexus, then 17 Forge/Gate/Cannon?? Also when do you get your gas?? 15 nexus 15 forge works against 14 pool. On large 4 player maps go 13 forge in case of early pool. Against 15 hatch cannon rush ^^ But if you don't want to, you can go 17 nexus 17 pylon 18 gate 18/19 forge. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On July 22 2011 14:04 XiGua wrote: A simple question here: Upgrade armor or attack if going for an timing attack? I heard somewhere that armor is always more benefitial so that's why I always upgrade armor in my engi-bay first. But seeing as pros always upgrade attack, I start to wonder. What kind of timing? Please list at least a matchup somewhere, because if you didn't say engi-bay I wouldn't have even known you were terran. But as for terran timings, I know in tvz that, because marines generally attack faster than they take in damage because of stim (the only exception is zerglings, in terms of cost/attack speed). Because of this, you get more benefit out of attack upgrades, as armor doesn't do anything against banelings, and the faster you can kill mutalisks, the better. It's also cheaper than armor, which is another plus. I'm not sure who/what told you that armor was better, but it must have been either a very specific, non-standard build, or someone who was just wrong. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On July 22 2011 13:59 bankai wrote: Also, who is a good pro player that has a solid/safe/macro-oriented play in PvZ? Nothing too funky, just shows similar styles every game and wins with it The most solid PvZ I've ever seen (as a zerg player) is HuK's. Past that, San has shown some good play in the past but lacks consistency (in the GSL, at least), Kiwikaki also shows some late game prowess. Naniwa would also be an excellent player to learn from. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On July 22 2011 15:06 Soluhwin wrote: The most solid PvZ I've ever seen (as a zerg player) is HuK's. Past that, San has shown some good play in the past but lacks consistency (in the GSL, at least), Kiwikaki also shows some late game prowess. Naniwa would also be an excellent player to learn from. Thanks, will check them out! Are there streams or websites I can go to to find replays for specific players? | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On July 22 2011 14:48 Anihc wrote: 15 nexus 15 forge works against 14 pool. On large 4 player maps go 13 forge in case of early pool. Against 15 hatch cannon rush ^^ But if you don't want to, you can go 17 nexus 17 pylon 18 gate 18/19 forge. Cool thanks! Can I ask as well when do you get your 2 assimilators for 15 nexus/15 forge (14pool) and 17nexus (hatch first)? Sorry, Im a bit of a numbers freak | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On July 22 2011 15:22 bankai wrote: Cool thanks! Can I ask as well when do you get your 2 assimilators for 15 nexus/15 forge (14pool) and 17nexus (hatch first)? Sorry, Im a bit of a numbers freak I don't remember numbers. After gateway (assuming forge pylon cannon cannon gate), I keep up non stop probe production from both nexus, and my next 150 extra minerals goes to 2 gas. If I get suspicious of 1 base all in I only get 1 gas. | ||
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Geiko
France2012 Posts
On July 22 2011 14:44 Anihc wrote: Make a low ground wall. I know MLG maps are annoying with the depot, but throw down extra gates and pylons and leave as small a hole as you can that you can block off with some probes. When your cannon finishes you can cancel the extra gateways and pylons. Then make a second cannon that's in range of your initial cannon but can protect your future natural nexus. Then place your nexus and continue on as normal. The trick is to not panic and keep making probes. You won't be behind in econ, and your tech will be faster now too since you've gotten your gateway so early. Thanks for that ! Seems solid but now I have to put it in practise. | ||
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