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On July 22 2011 01:50 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:20 ShnAndrei wrote:
My question is about mutas before banes. In what circumstances is this viable or possible in a ZvT? (I am a Terran player btw) Maybe if the terran player is trying to do some sort of marauder hellion composition that's low on AA and try to attack before mutas? Faster mutas would clean it up. Against a terran player with marines and tanks, though, you usually want a few banelings along with your mutas to at least get the marines to run away. Marines tend to chew up mutas, and banelings tend to chew up marines, which is why you see ling/bling/muta to deal with marine/tank/medivac.
Would using this as a surprise factor, such that the zerg player will have much more mutalisks by skipping baneling tech (or much faster mutalisks - I don't know if it is possible), would this leave the Zerg player too exposed? Or is it viable?
Thanks for the first answer!
edit: what I mean to say it's 'is this something you may meet on ladder as a terran player?' or is it completely out of the question?
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On July 22 2011 02:00 Xaeldaren wrote:
What deals with mass Thor/Hellion as Protoss?
Voidrays, Immortals, HT, DT, Blink Stalkers (if used right). A lot of things can kill it. Just not Zealots 
Oh and archons would also be strong.
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On July 22 2011 02:13 ShnAndrei wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:50 Blazinghand wrote:On July 22 2011 01:20 ShnAndrei wrote:
My question is about mutas before banes. In what circumstances is this viable or possible in a ZvT? (I am a Terran player btw) Maybe if the terran player is trying to do some sort of marauder hellion composition that's low on AA and try to attack before mutas? Faster mutas would clean it up. Against a terran player with marines and tanks, though, you usually want a few banelings along with your mutas to at least get the marines to run away. Marines tend to chew up mutas, and banelings tend to chew up marines, which is why you see ling/bling/muta to deal with marine/tank/medivac. Would using this as a surprise factor, such that the zerg player will have much more mutalisks by skipping baneling tech (or much faster mutalisks - I don't know if it is possible), would this leave the Zerg player too exposed? Or is it viable? Thanks for the first answer! edit: what I mean to say it's 'is this something you may meet on ladder as a terran player?' or is it completely out of the question?
I very rarely see mutas on the ladder without banelings. It's happened to me once or twice, but usually in weird situations. The main thing is that giving up, say, 3 mutas (300 gas) to get 10 banelings (250 gas for banes, 50 for a nest) is so tempting and effective that most players get at least some banes.
I've seen strats that really really mass mutas, enough to take down turrets-- this lets the zerg player get very strong map control, since he can snipe a turret or two if terran tries to move out, and terran has to keep most of his AA near his tanks. Until terran has like, ~2 thors, he can't push, buying time for the zerg 3rd to kick in and produce enough to stop the 2-base tank timing attack. As terran starts to move out, zerg morphs banelings, and transitions to a standard ling/bling/muta.
Almost all muta/ling strats include banelings in them. I've seen some muta/ling that gets infestors instead on some streams, but never played it.
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On July 22 2011 02:11 fuzzytoad wrote:
In ZvZ, after opening 15 hatch 16 gas 15 pool, what is the proper response to a 6 pool?
Does it change for 7-8 pool?
How about 10 pool?
Not sure why you would see a 6 pool in ZvZ, but for any pool build at or before 10 supply generally just takes a build order win against a hatch first. That being said though, I suppose it is possible to hold if your opponent didn't pull the drones, and you aren't in close positions by canceling the hatch and defending with drones until your pool gets out. If your opponent made more than the initial 6, build a spine. You will be quite far behind, however, because of your opponent having a queen so early (recovering from a failed 6 pool in sc2 is so easy  ), but I wouldn't be surprised if you could come back, because if someone is 6 pool-ing in ZvZ then that might be one of the only cases that you can bank on your opponent being bad.
note: The reason I'm bashing the idea of a 6 pool, is because 10 pool auto-kills hatch first just as well (so long as you scout your opponent and pull the drones with the attack) and your not quite as far behind if your opponent didn't hatch first, so I don't see the point in 6 pool-ing.
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I should probably just make a new thread for this and upload replays, but here it goes anyways...
I'm having a TON of problems in TvZ (Low masters level).
I've been going 1/1 expand with 4 hellions into 3-4 barracks 1 factory 1 starport 9-10 minute siege/stim marine/tank/medi timing push.
there are a couple problems I'm having:
1. as I push out, he can easily do a zergling runby at my natural. if i leave units behind, my push is really, really weak.
2. my push rarely does any damage. usually I can kill/deny his 3rd.. alright, great. but as soon as he gets his banelings and mutas out, my army gets WRECKED. if I try to kill 3rd, unsiege, and go back to my base, he can see me unsiege and then INSTANTLY runs in a ton of speedlings and my army gets completely fucked up.
what the hell am I supposed to do? I feel like if I leave my army there, its doing 0 damage (other than containing) and letting him build up an army for as long as he wants to, and then he CRUSHES my army. after he crushes my army, he can take a safe 3rd and i can't take a safe 3rd.
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On July 22 2011 04:01 blinkblue wrote:
I should probably just make a new thread for this and upload replays, but here it goes anyways...
I'm having a TON of problems in TvZ (Low masters level).
I've been going 1/1 expand with 4 hellions into 3-4 barracks 1 factory 1 starport 9-10 minute siege/stim marine/tank/medi timing push.
there are a couple problems I'm having:
1. as I push out, he can easily do a zergling runby at my natural. if i leave units behind, my push is really, really weak.
2. my push rarely does any damage. usually I can kill/deny his 3rd.. alright, great. but as soon as he gets his banelings and mutas out, my army gets WRECKED. if I try to kill 3rd, unsiege, and go back to my base, he can see me unsiege and then INSTANTLY runs in a ton of speedlings and my army gets completely fucked up.
what the hell am I supposed to do? I feel like if I leave my army there, its doing 0 damage (other than containing) and letting him build up an army for as long as he wants to, and then he CRUSHES my army. after he crushes my army, he can take a safe 3rd and i can't take a safe 3rd.
As you have pointed out, it is difficult to provide deep advice with no replay, but here are some things from a zerg perspective:
Killing the third is a HUGE deal, I don't know what things are like from a terran's point of view but if by third dies to the timing push and my initial mutas don't kill about 20 scvs, then I just feel like tapping out there. 2 base terran is very threatening for a zerg, because at that point I can't do the 'go kill you' response because you've already entered turtle mode, so I'd have to wait for hive tech. If you're doing this style that centers around the 2 base timing, you should expect to lose your army and delay your third, because as long as your ready for the mutalisk counter, I think you're ahead. Another thing to note is: You might see your army get totally roflstomped, but keep in mind banelings are suicide units and most of the lings probably died to the siege tanks. That's not a lot of resources I have to replace, but it is a lot of larva I have to use to feel safe again, so even if I replace my third immediately then the saturation of it is delayed.
I hope this helped at all, I know it's not much but I just wanted to throw out a piece of zerg mindset.
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Yeah, 2 base vs 2 base should favor T, but it just seems like it ends up being 3 base vs 2 base when the zerg quickly crushes my army, i have 0 units, he is safe to get 3rd and drone up and can choose to put enough pressure on my 3rd that i cant defend it, ESPECIALLY if he splits up lings @ my 3rd and mutas @ my main.
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On July 22 2011 04:13 blinkblue wrote:
Yeah, 2 base vs 2 base should favor T, but it just seems like it ends up being 3 base vs 2 base when the zerg quickly crushes my army, i have 0 units, he is safe to get 3rd and drone up and can choose to put enough pressure on my 3rd that i cant defend it, ESPECIALLY if he splits up lings @ my 3rd and mutas @ my main.
You should be getting a third up when you push. Also he can't have mutas and a big ground army and a third. If he has a fast third he will still be on hatch tech. If he is on lair tech and has a fast third, just kill him.
Anyway I suggest you open a thread with replays. I think what you think are the issues and what is really happening might be different.
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On July 21 2011 20:08 saaaa wrote:
Which upgrades should i do first again the early game of the zerg on my bio units?
Armor or Attack +1?
once again... maybe it would be skipped...
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Is it smart to to pressure when doing a 2 rax against toss? I feel like i lose more then I gain.
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:36 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 20:08 saaaa wrote:
Which upgrades should i do first again the early game of the zerg on my bio units?
Armor or Attack +1? once again... maybe it would be skipped...
Usually you want +1 attack for your marines against zerg. You shoot quickly and benefit from the increased damage. +1 armor is also good, but not quite as good given that there are banelings, fungals and the like. Also, +1 attack lets you kill more zerglings before they close with you. Overall, weapon upgrades are good against zerg as terran.
On July 22 2011 04:47 harhar! wrote:
Is it smart to to pressure when doing a 2 rax against toss? I feel like i lose more then I gain.
Only if you can keep up your macro, producing units and scvs and the like in a timely fashion while microing. Also, if you don't have marauders, he may make stalkers and try to kite you, which is very very hard to deal with with just marines. If this happens, retreat to your bunker.
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On July 22 2011 04:47 harhar! wrote:
Is it smart to to pressure when doing a 2 rax against toss? I feel like i lose more then I gain.
Close positions, yeah, but I'd say it's best to with concussive shells. Usually people do this to me if they feel my Nexus went down too early, and the smart Terrans pull back once they think WG has finished. I think the idea is to try to force a FF down from my early sentry, then once it dissipates push up and try to pick off the sentry(s). But once WG is finished it is a bad idea to stick around.
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On July 22 2011 04:48 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:47 harhar! wrote:
Is it smart to to pressure when doing a 2 rax against toss? I feel like i lose more then I gain. Only if you can keep up your macro, producing units and scvs and the like in a timely fashion while microing. Also, if you don't have marauders, he may make stalkers and try to kite you, which is very very hard to deal with with just marines. If this happens, retreat to your bunker.
I'm assuming you're referring to 2 rax 1 reactor 1 tech lab expand build. Yes you should pressure with it, but mostly so that you punish greedy 1 gate FE builds from the protoss. You need to be careful, because you will get owned if the protoss is doing something like 3 gate expo. How to be careful?
1) Scout ahead with SCV, poke up ramp with just SCV to get an idea of unit count and possibly even gateway count. Don't just run in with your units.
2) Learn timings of protoss expand - if you push into the natural and discover no expansion yet, I would run back to your base immediately. As fast as you can.
3) Reaper scout.
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Do infested terrans walk faster on creep
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On July 22 2011 05:01 Mementoss wrote:
Do infested terrans walk faster on creep
They walk 30% faster, moving at a speed of about 1.3 instead of a speed of about 1.0
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In PvT:
How to deal with an early Reaper when you do 16 Nexus in Shakuras?
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I Need to work on my mechanics, what's a good TvX strat I can use as my solitary build order while I spam some ladder matches to Improve?
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What is the standard transition after the 2 Rax Pressure FE (reactor on first rax construct another, push out with 1 marauder 5marines) if you know your opponent is not going a 4 gate/void ray build and are going the normal expand and building up a robo army or high templar
1. 3/4 Barracks Timing
2. Second Gas Timing
3. Factory Timing
4. Engineering Bay timing
What is the best way to scout to see if your opponent is going high templar or collusus. Is it a scan and if it is what time?
How many barracks + Starports are advised on 2 base vs a Protoss on two base with the standard colluses gateway army.
How many barracks + Starports (with ghosts) are advised on 3 base vs a Protoss on two base with the standard colluses high templar gateway army.
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On July 22 2011 05:23 Intricate1 wrote:
I Need to work on my mechanics, what's a good TvX strat I can use as my solitary build order while I spam some ladder matches to Improve?
It's hard to find a non-cheese build that works in all matchups. I'd say, in general, a 1 rax Fast Expand with a couple bunkers depending on the MU/spawns is always good. Alternatively, if you want to 1-base it, you could use a  3 Rax Stim (vs. Terran) style attack in every matchup.
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On July 22 2011 04:59 Anihc wrote:
I'm assuming you're referring to 2 rax 1 reactor 1 tech lab expand build. Yes you should pressure with it, but mostly so that you punish greedy 1 gate FE builds from the protoss. You need to be careful, because you will get owned if the protoss is doing something like 3 gate expo. How to be careful?
1) Scout ahead with SCV, poke up ramp with just SCV to get an idea of unit count and possibly even gateway count. Don't just run in with your units.
2) Learn timings of protoss expand - if you push into the natural and discover no expansion yet, I would run back to your base immediately. As fast as you can.
3) Reaper scout.
Thx for the answer.
Okay let me get this straight (ignoring the reaper for now):
I push when I have 2 Rauders and concussive just finishes.
CASE1: No nexus.
-> retreat immediatly
CASE2: Nexus warping
-> we can assume its some kind of 2gate, 3gate or 1 gate+ robo expand, probably not 1-gate, because that would be a pretty slow Nexus, so I poke the ramp, see if I could kill that in an open battle:
2.1: Too much stuff
-> retreat
2.2: Not so much stuff
-> ???
should I attack immediatly or pull ~5 SCVs? build bunker?
CASE3: Nexus done
-> 2.2
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EPT
