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On July 07 2011 14:18 enemy2010 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 13:56 Scipaeus121212 wrote:
Broodlord attacks like a normal unit, each attack does 20 damage (+2 per flyer attack upgrade). As a side effect each attack spawns a broodling, who as a different unit is affected by different upgrades (melee attack and ground carapace). So when a broodling hits an enemy unit, there are 20 damage being dealt, just with this initital hit (which is affected by the air upgrades). And this broodling does some DPS per seconds itself after this initial hit (which are affected by the ground upgrades). Right? 
Correct
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On July 07 2011 14:41 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 14:18 enemy2010 wrote:On July 07 2011 13:56 Scipaeus121212 wrote:
Broodlord attacks like a normal unit, each attack does 20 damage (+2 per flyer attack upgrade). As a side effect each attack spawns a broodling, who as a different unit is affected by different upgrades (melee attack and ground carapace). So when a broodling hits an enemy unit, there are 20 damage being dealt, just with this initital hit (which is affected by the air upgrades). And this broodling does some DPS per seconds itself after this initial hit (which are affected by the ground upgrades). Right? Correct
Nice, thanks
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On July 07 2011 09:27 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 09:00 bankai wrote:Not sure if this is a short answer, so let me know if I should post somewhere else.... In PvZ, if I open 2 gate sentry expand, and Z goes for a ling/baneling or ling/baneling/infestor build, how do I counter this? Especially on large open maps I feel that using FF to keep those banelings away only protect me so long as they just surround me and wait till my FFs drop  Is the best counter to just turtle up when I see this behind cannons/walls and get HT storms or Colossus?? THANKS!! Depends what kind of attack you are talking about. Seems to me like you are talking about a mid game army composition (infestors ...), in which case it has nothing to do with the way you are opening. If you are talking about an early game baneling bust, the key to defending it is just good building placements. Surround your base in buildings (forge, pylons, gateways) and leave an opening for your units. If he attacks with banelings, just FF the entrance once and shoot at what is behind it. If he uses baelings to bust holes in your wall, place FFs where the hole's were made. You should have A LOT of FFs with a 2 gate sentry expand, and keep in mind that all the time that the FFs are here, you are shooting at his stuff, and he is doing nothing to you. Just don't panic, don't spam FFs and waste them all in one shot, place calm FFs at critical points, and with good sim city it should be all right
thank you geiko, that sounds like solid advice for early game baneling busts which i do need help with
my mistake, but to clarify, i did mean my original question to be dealing with mid game zerglings/banelings or zerglings/banelings/infestors...how do I deal with that?? some solutions i have heard is:
1) 6 gate him before infestors come out. My issue with this is when i do this attack with zealots/stalkers/sentries, if it fails, i end up really behind in tech (due to loss of all my sentries). Actually not even sure if i have the correct concept of 6 gating!
2) Taking a quick 3rd and turtling behind cannons/sim city and getting HT with storms. By this though, not sure what is considered a 'quick 3rd'. I know its situational but what does that mean?
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On July 07 2011 15:13 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 09:27 Geiko wrote:On July 07 2011 09:00 bankai wrote:Not sure if this is a short answer, so let me know if I should post somewhere else.... In PvZ, if I open 2 gate sentry expand, and Z goes for a ling/baneling or ling/baneling/infestor build, how do I counter this? Especially on large open maps I feel that using FF to keep those banelings away only protect me so long as they just surround me and wait till my FFs drop Is the best counter to just turtle up when I see this behind cannons/walls and get HT storms or Colossus?? THANKS!! Depends what kind of attack you are talking about. Seems to me like you are talking about a mid game army composition (infestors ...), in which case it has nothing to do with the way you are opening. If you are talking about an early game baneling bust, the key to defending it is just good building placements. Surround your base in buildings (forge, pylons, gateways) and leave an opening for your units. If he attacks with banelings, just FF the entrance once and shoot at what is behind it. If he uses baelings to bust holes in your wall, place FFs where the hole's were made. You should have A LOT of FFs with a 2 gate sentry expand, and keep in mind that all the time that the FFs are here, you are shooting at his stuff, and he is doing nothing to you. Just don't panic, don't spam FFs and waste them all in one shot, place calm FFs at critical points, and with good sim city it should be all right thank you geiko, that sounds like solid advice for early game baneling busts which i do need help with my mistake, but to clarify, i did mean my original question to be dealing with mid game zerglings/banelings or zerglings/banelings/infestors...how do I deal with that?? some solutions i have heard is: 1) 6 gate him before infestors come out. My issue with this is when i do this attack with zealots/stalkers/sentries, if it fails, i end up really behind in tech (due to loss of all my sentries). Actually not even sure if i have the correct concept of 6 gating! 2) Taking a quick 3rd and turtling behind cannons/sim city and getting HT with storms. By this though, not sure what is considered a 'quick 3rd'. I know its situational but what does that mean?
I can give you MY opinion on zergling/baneling/infestor midgame. I say "my" opinion because zergs are really only trying out this style and I don't know that there is a universal way either to play it, or play against it.
From what I've seen on the ladder, zergs are trying to reach this composition on two bases and survive early on by making a shit ton of spine crawlers. This is actually the same exact way that they would prepare for a 2 base fast muta cheese.
With a 2 gate sentry expand, you should scout the spines and the no roaches with your first "sharking" and indeed want to make a 6 gate push. (also I do believe that it's a good idea to get hallu when 2 gate sentry expanding, so you should scout it fairly easily). I don't know what level you are at, but if you don't have an exact build order for the 6 gate push, it is going to fail miserably. Think of it this way, when people didn't know how to 4 gate and just went with it, they were hitting ridiculously late timings. So work on your 6 gate timings. There is no build or timing per se. You can either go for a fast 6 gate, or a delayed 6 (7) gate with an observer and +1, or other variations, but it has to be tight.
In either case, if you scout it late, or lose early units you shoudn't have, or don't feel like doing a 6 gate which is pretty all in you don't really have to. I never take my third if the zerg is staying on 2 bases. I feel when going for that composition, the zerg can't really respond to colossi, so stalker/sentry/colossi should be good. (lol i give that answer to everyone that wants an army comp vs zerg :D). But seriously with all the money they are spending, they're not going to have air units anytime soon, and colossi melt infester lings and banes.
They'll probably try to drop your mineral line with banelings.but that 300 more gas (for overlord techs) and some banelings so you can push their base and not expect much resistance. They'll also try to baneling drop your army while forcing you to FF around your protoss ball. Try not to clump your sentries and it should be fine.
So really, just make sure to apply enough pressure that they don't completely by-pass making spines and just mass zerglings off their 3 or 4 hatches (they will always get macro hatches)
In theory I feel like zergling/baneling/infestors is a good idea, but in practise it just cost too much gas, requires lucky baneling hits. You need a LOT of spines to stay alive and then your army is just weak and dies to everything. People at my level who have been trying this have been failing hard, but I'm not experienced enough playing against this to give you a definite answer on its viability at higher levels.
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On July 07 2011 15:36 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 15:13 bankai wrote:On July 07 2011 09:27 Geiko wrote:On July 07 2011 09:00 bankai wrote:Not sure if this is a short answer, so let me know if I should post somewhere else.... In PvZ, if I open 2 gate sentry expand, and Z goes for a ling/baneling or ling/baneling/infestor build, how do I counter this? Especially on large open maps I feel that using FF to keep those banelings away only protect me so long as they just surround me and wait till my FFs drop Is the best counter to just turtle up when I see this behind cannons/walls and get HT storms or Colossus?? THANKS!! Depends what kind of attack you are talking about. Seems to me like you are talking about a mid game army composition (infestors ...), in which case it has nothing to do with the way you are opening. If you are talking about an early game baneling bust, the key to defending it is just good building placements. Surround your base in buildings (forge, pylons, gateways) and leave an opening for your units. If he attacks with banelings, just FF the entrance once and shoot at what is behind it. If he uses baelings to bust holes in your wall, place FFs where the hole's were made. You should have A LOT of FFs with a 2 gate sentry expand, and keep in mind that all the time that the FFs are here, you are shooting at his stuff, and he is doing nothing to you. Just don't panic, don't spam FFs and waste them all in one shot, place calm FFs at critical points, and with good sim city it should be all right thank you geiko, that sounds like solid advice for early game baneling busts which i do need help with my mistake, but to clarify, i did mean my original question to be dealing with mid game zerglings/banelings or zerglings/banelings/infestors...how do I deal with that?? some solutions i have heard is: 1) 6 gate him before infestors come out. My issue with this is when i do this attack with zealots/stalkers/sentries, if it fails, i end up really behind in tech (due to loss of all my sentries). Actually not even sure if i have the correct concept of 6 gating! 2) Taking a quick 3rd and turtling behind cannons/sim city and getting HT with storms. By this though, not sure what is considered a 'quick 3rd'. I know its situational but what does that mean? I can give you MY opinion on zergling/baneling/infestor midgame. I say "my" opinion because zergs are really only trying out this style and I don't know that there is a universal way either to play it, or play against it. From what I've seen on the ladder, zergs are trying to reach this composition on two bases and survive early on by making a shit ton of spine crawlers. This is actually the same exact way that they would prepare for a 2 base fast muta cheese. With a 2 gate sentry expand, you should scout the spines and the no roaches with your first "sharking" and indeed want to make a 6 gate push. (also I do believe that it's a good idea to get hallu when 2 gate sentry expanding, so you should scout it fairly easily). I don't know what level you are at, but if you don't have an exact build order for the 6 gate push, it is going to fail miserably. Think of it this way, when people didn't know how to 4 gate and just went with it, they were hitting ridiculously late timings. So work on your 6 gate timings. There is no build or timing per se. You can either go for a fast 6 gate, or a delayed 6 (7) gate with an observer and +1, or other variations, but it has to be tight. In either case, if you scout it late, or lose early units you shoudn't have, or don't feel like doing a 6 gate which is pretty all in you don't really have to. I never take my third if the zerg is staying on 2 bases. I feel when going for that composition, the zerg can't really respond to colossi, so stalker/sentry/colossi should be good. (lol i give that answer to everyone that wants an army comp vs zerg :D). But seriously with all the money they are spending, they're not going to have air units anytime soon, and colossi melt infester lings and banes. They'll probably try to drop your mineral line with banelings.but that 300 more gas (for overlord techs) and some banelings so you can push their base and not expect much resistance. They'll also try to baneling drop your army while forcing you to FF around your protoss ball. Try not to clump your sentries and it should be fine. So really, just make sure to apply enough pressure that they don't completely by-pass making spines and just mass zerglings off their 3 or 4 hatches (they will always get macro hatches) In theory I feel like zergling/baneling/infestors is a good idea, but in practise it just cost too much gas, requires lucky baneling hits. You need a LOT of spines to stay alive and then your army is just weak and dies to everything. People at my level who have been trying this have been failing hard, but I'm not experienced enough playing against this to give you a definite answer on its viability at higher levels.
I like your analogy of comparing 6 gate to 4 gate and the 'tightness' required to execute...very helpful
So I take it your answer is to attack them even if they have lots of spines with 6 gate or otherwise, build up on Colossus on 2 base? To pressure, I am often scared to walk around with my gateway (sentry heavy) army for fear of zergling surrounds which has happened often to me i guess that just requires good scouting??
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On July 07 2011 15:48 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 15:36 Geiko wrote:On July 07 2011 15:13 bankai wrote:On July 07 2011 09:27 Geiko wrote:On July 07 2011 09:00 bankai wrote:Not sure if this is a short answer, so let me know if I should post somewhere else.... In PvZ, if I open 2 gate sentry expand, and Z goes for a ling/baneling or ling/baneling/infestor build, how do I counter this? Especially on large open maps I feel that using FF to keep those banelings away only protect me so long as they just surround me and wait till my FFs drop Is the best counter to just turtle up when I see this behind cannons/walls and get HT storms or Colossus?? THANKS!! Depends what kind of attack you are talking about. Seems to me like you are talking about a mid game army composition (infestors ...), in which case it has nothing to do with the way you are opening. If you are talking about an early game baneling bust, the key to defending it is just good building placements. Surround your base in buildings (forge, pylons, gateways) and leave an opening for your units. If he attacks with banelings, just FF the entrance once and shoot at what is behind it. If he uses baelings to bust holes in your wall, place FFs where the hole's were made. You should have A LOT of FFs with a 2 gate sentry expand, and keep in mind that all the time that the FFs are here, you are shooting at his stuff, and he is doing nothing to you. Just don't panic, don't spam FFs and waste them all in one shot, place calm FFs at critical points, and with good sim city it should be all right thank you geiko, that sounds like solid advice for early game baneling busts which i do need help with my mistake, but to clarify, i did mean my original question to be dealing with mid game zerglings/banelings or zerglings/banelings/infestors...how do I deal with that?? some solutions i have heard is: 1) 6 gate him before infestors come out. My issue with this is when i do this attack with zealots/stalkers/sentries, if it fails, i end up really behind in tech (due to loss of all my sentries). Actually not even sure if i have the correct concept of 6 gating! 2) Taking a quick 3rd and turtling behind cannons/sim city and getting HT with storms. By this though, not sure what is considered a 'quick 3rd'. I know its situational but what does that mean? I can give you MY opinion on zergling/baneling/infestor midgame. I say "my" opinion because zergs are really only trying out this style and I don't know that there is a universal way either to play it, or play against it. From what I've seen on the ladder, zergs are trying to reach this composition on two bases and survive early on by making a shit ton of spine crawlers. This is actually the same exact way that they would prepare for a 2 base fast muta cheese. With a 2 gate sentry expand, you should scout the spines and the no roaches with your first "sharking" and indeed want to make a 6 gate push. (also I do believe that it's a good idea to get hallu when 2 gate sentry expanding, so you should scout it fairly easily). I don't know what level you are at, but if you don't have an exact build order for the 6 gate push, it is going to fail miserably. Think of it this way, when people didn't know how to 4 gate and just went with it, they were hitting ridiculously late timings. So work on your 6 gate timings. There is no build or timing per se. You can either go for a fast 6 gate, or a delayed 6 (7) gate with an observer and +1, or other variations, but it has to be tight. In either case, if you scout it late, or lose early units you shoudn't have, or don't feel like doing a 6 gate which is pretty all in you don't really have to. I never take my third if the zerg is staying on 2 bases. I feel when going for that composition, the zerg can't really respond to colossi, so stalker/sentry/colossi should be good. (lol i give that answer to everyone that wants an army comp vs zerg :D). But seriously with all the money they are spending, they're not going to have air units anytime soon, and colossi melt infester lings and banes. They'll probably try to drop your mineral line with banelings.but that 300 more gas (for overlord techs) and some banelings so you can push their base and not expect much resistance. They'll also try to baneling drop your army while forcing you to FF around your protoss ball. Try not to clump your sentries and it should be fine. So really, just make sure to apply enough pressure that they don't completely by-pass making spines and just mass zerglings off their 3 or 4 hatches (they will always get macro hatches) In theory I feel like zergling/baneling/infestors is a good idea, but in practise it just cost too much gas, requires lucky baneling hits. You need a LOT of spines to stay alive and then your army is just weak and dies to everything. People at my level who have been trying this have been failing hard, but I'm not experienced enough playing against this to give you a definite answer on its viability at higher levels. I like your analogy of comparing 6 gate to 4 gate and the 'tightness' required to execute...very helpful So I take it your answer is to attack them even if they have lots of spines with 6 gate or otherwise, build up on Colossus on 2 base? To pressure, I am often scared to walk around with my gateway (sentry heavy) army for fear of zergling surrounds which has happened often to me i guess that just requires good scouting??
2 bases if they are on 2 bases (which they should if they are rushing for this army composition).
You should really scout with halucinated phoenix (use the timings for this 2 gate sentry expand thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225509) Sharking is good as well but you have to indeed be extra careful.
But yeah, colossi are good against this.
I guess one could also advocate going for templar tech : feedback on the infestors, and then archon for ling/bling. Archons would indeed be very good against this. It really is personal preference. However that would pretty much force you into getting zealots for mineral sink, and archon zealot is just way too vulnerable to a roach tech switch. (and zealots do pretty poorly vs banelings and infestors).
Sentry/Stalker/Colo is the solid way to go imo.
Also, since you're not taking an expo, you can afford a couple (not more than 5 or 6) zealots in your army composition. As Anihc said before though, try not to clump your sentries, and be reactive with your forcefielding. You don't want any FG to go down on your army before you had the chance to properly FF.
Edit : This is all very personal feelings about this build I'm telling you, if you want there is an ongoing discussion about it here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223676. No one really knows what the best way to deal with it is yet, and no one really knows how effective it can be....
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On July 07 2011 16:02 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 15:48 bankai wrote:On July 07 2011 15:36 Geiko wrote:On July 07 2011 15:13 bankai wrote:On July 07 2011 09:27 Geiko wrote:On July 07 2011 09:00 bankai wrote:Not sure if this is a short answer, so let me know if I should post somewhere else.... In PvZ, if I open 2 gate sentry expand, and Z goes for a ling/baneling or ling/baneling/infestor build, how do I counter this? Especially on large open maps I feel that using FF to keep those banelings away only protect me so long as they just surround me and wait till my FFs drop Is the best counter to just turtle up when I see this behind cannons/walls and get HT storms or Colossus?? THANKS!! Depends what kind of attack you are talking about. Seems to me like you are talking about a mid game army composition (infestors ...), in which case it has nothing to do with the way you are opening. If you are talking about an early game baneling bust, the key to defending it is just good building placements. Surround your base in buildings (forge, pylons, gateways) and leave an opening for your units. If he attacks with banelings, just FF the entrance once and shoot at what is behind it. If he uses baelings to bust holes in your wall, place FFs where the hole's were made. You should have A LOT of FFs with a 2 gate sentry expand, and keep in mind that all the time that the FFs are here, you are shooting at his stuff, and he is doing nothing to you. Just don't panic, don't spam FFs and waste them all in one shot, place calm FFs at critical points, and with good sim city it should be all right thank you geiko, that sounds like solid advice for early game baneling busts which i do need help with my mistake, but to clarify, i did mean my original question to be dealing with mid game zerglings/banelings or zerglings/banelings/infestors...how do I deal with that?? some solutions i have heard is: 1) 6 gate him before infestors come out. My issue with this is when i do this attack with zealots/stalkers/sentries, if it fails, i end up really behind in tech (due to loss of all my sentries). Actually not even sure if i have the correct concept of 6 gating! 2) Taking a quick 3rd and turtling behind cannons/sim city and getting HT with storms. By this though, not sure what is considered a 'quick 3rd'. I know its situational but what does that mean? I can give you MY opinion on zergling/baneling/infestor midgame. I say "my" opinion because zergs are really only trying out this style and I don't know that there is a universal way either to play it, or play against it. From what I've seen on the ladder, zergs are trying to reach this composition on two bases and survive early on by making a shit ton of spine crawlers. This is actually the same exact way that they would prepare for a 2 base fast muta cheese. With a 2 gate sentry expand, you should scout the spines and the no roaches with your first "sharking" and indeed want to make a 6 gate push. (also I do believe that it's a good idea to get hallu when 2 gate sentry expanding, so you should scout it fairly easily). I don't know what level you are at, but if you don't have an exact build order for the 6 gate push, it is going to fail miserably. Think of it this way, when people didn't know how to 4 gate and just went with it, they were hitting ridiculously late timings. So work on your 6 gate timings. There is no build or timing per se. You can either go for a fast 6 gate, or a delayed 6 (7) gate with an observer and +1, or other variations, but it has to be tight. In either case, if you scout it late, or lose early units you shoudn't have, or don't feel like doing a 6 gate which is pretty all in you don't really have to. I never take my third if the zerg is staying on 2 bases. I feel when going for that composition, the zerg can't really respond to colossi, so stalker/sentry/colossi should be good. (lol i give that answer to everyone that wants an army comp vs zerg :D). But seriously with all the money they are spending, they're not going to have air units anytime soon, and colossi melt infester lings and banes. They'll probably try to drop your mineral line with banelings.but that 300 more gas (for overlord techs) and some banelings so you can push their base and not expect much resistance. They'll also try to baneling drop your army while forcing you to FF around your protoss ball. Try not to clump your sentries and it should be fine. So really, just make sure to apply enough pressure that they don't completely by-pass making spines and just mass zerglings off their 3 or 4 hatches (they will always get macro hatches) In theory I feel like zergling/baneling/infestors is a good idea, but in practise it just cost too much gas, requires lucky baneling hits. You need a LOT of spines to stay alive and then your army is just weak and dies to everything. People at my level who have been trying this have been failing hard, but I'm not experienced enough playing against this to give you a definite answer on its viability at higher levels. I like your analogy of comparing 6 gate to 4 gate and the 'tightness' required to execute...very helpful So I take it your answer is to attack them even if they have lots of spines with 6 gate or otherwise, build up on Colossus on 2 base? To pressure, I am often scared to walk around with my gateway (sentry heavy) army for fear of zergling surrounds which has happened often to me i guess that just requires good scouting?? 2 bases if they are on 2 bases (which they should if they are rushing for this army composition). You should really scout with halucinated phoenix (use the timings for this 2 gate sentry expand thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225509) Sharking is good as well but you have to indeed be extra careful. But yeah, colossi are good against this. I guess one could also advocate going for templar tech : feedback on the infestors, and then archon for ling/bling. Archons would indeed be very good against this. It really is personal preference. However that would pretty much force you into getting zealots for mineral sink, and archon zealot is just way too vulnerable to a roach tech switch. (and zealots do pretty poorly vs banelings and infestors). Sentry/Stalker/Colo is the solid way to go imo. Also, since you're not taking an expo, you can afford a couple (not more than 5 or 6) zealots in your army composition. As Anihc said before though, try not to clump your sentries, and be reactive with your forcefielding. You don't want any FG to go down on your army before you had the chance to properly FF. Edit : This is all very personal feelings about this build I'm telling you, if you want there is an ongoing discussion about it here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223676. No one really knows what the best way to deal with it is yet, and no one really knows how effective it can be....
Some really good advice, even if it is your own opinion Geiko. Thanks a lot for your help!!
BTW, wat league are you??  im only plat so alot of ppl will say improve your mechanics (which i dont agree with), but i also think its important to develop a good 'game plan' and decide on a solid build order (especially when many ppl now say that 3 gate sentry is kinda redundant now and that 2 gate sentry expand lets you expand earlier)
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On July 07 2011 17:00 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 16:02 Geiko wrote:On July 07 2011 15:48 bankai wrote:On July 07 2011 15:36 Geiko wrote:On July 07 2011 15:13 bankai wrote:On July 07 2011 09:27 Geiko wrote:On July 07 2011 09:00 bankai wrote:Not sure if this is a short answer, so let me know if I should post somewhere else.... In PvZ, if I open 2 gate sentry expand, and Z goes for a ling/baneling or ling/baneling/infestor build, how do I counter this? Especially on large open maps I feel that using FF to keep those banelings away only protect me so long as they just surround me and wait till my FFs drop Is the best counter to just turtle up when I see this behind cannons/walls and get HT storms or Colossus?? THANKS!! Depends what kind of attack you are talking about. Seems to me like you are talking about a mid game army composition (infestors ...), in which case it has nothing to do with the way you are opening. If you are talking about an early game baneling bust, the key to defending it is just good building placements. Surround your base in buildings (forge, pylons, gateways) and leave an opening for your units. If he attacks with banelings, just FF the entrance once and shoot at what is behind it. If he uses baelings to bust holes in your wall, place FFs where the hole's were made. You should have A LOT of FFs with a 2 gate sentry expand, and keep in mind that all the time that the FFs are here, you are shooting at his stuff, and he is doing nothing to you. Just don't panic, don't spam FFs and waste them all in one shot, place calm FFs at critical points, and with good sim city it should be all right thank you geiko, that sounds like solid advice for early game baneling busts which i do need help with my mistake, but to clarify, i did mean my original question to be dealing with mid game zerglings/banelings or zerglings/banelings/infestors...how do I deal with that?? some solutions i have heard is: 1) 6 gate him before infestors come out. My issue with this is when i do this attack with zealots/stalkers/sentries, if it fails, i end up really behind in tech (due to loss of all my sentries). Actually not even sure if i have the correct concept of 6 gating! 2) Taking a quick 3rd and turtling behind cannons/sim city and getting HT with storms. By this though, not sure what is considered a 'quick 3rd'. I know its situational but what does that mean? I can give you MY opinion on zergling/baneling/infestor midgame. I say "my" opinion because zergs are really only trying out this style and I don't know that there is a universal way either to play it, or play against it. From what I've seen on the ladder, zergs are trying to reach this composition on two bases and survive early on by making a shit ton of spine crawlers. This is actually the same exact way that they would prepare for a 2 base fast muta cheese. With a 2 gate sentry expand, you should scout the spines and the no roaches with your first "sharking" and indeed want to make a 6 gate push. (also I do believe that it's a good idea to get hallu when 2 gate sentry expanding, so you should scout it fairly easily). I don't know what level you are at, but if you don't have an exact build order for the 6 gate push, it is going to fail miserably. Think of it this way, when people didn't know how to 4 gate and just went with it, they were hitting ridiculously late timings. So work on your 6 gate timings. There is no build or timing per se. You can either go for a fast 6 gate, or a delayed 6 (7) gate with an observer and +1, or other variations, but it has to be tight. In either case, if you scout it late, or lose early units you shoudn't have, or don't feel like doing a 6 gate which is pretty all in you don't really have to. I never take my third if the zerg is staying on 2 bases. I feel when going for that composition, the zerg can't really respond to colossi, so stalker/sentry/colossi should be good. (lol i give that answer to everyone that wants an army comp vs zerg :D). But seriously with all the money they are spending, they're not going to have air units anytime soon, and colossi melt infester lings and banes. They'll probably try to drop your mineral line with banelings.but that 300 more gas (for overlord techs) and some banelings so you can push their base and not expect much resistance. They'll also try to baneling drop your army while forcing you to FF around your protoss ball. Try not to clump your sentries and it should be fine. So really, just make sure to apply enough pressure that they don't completely by-pass making spines and just mass zerglings off their 3 or 4 hatches (they will always get macro hatches) In theory I feel like zergling/baneling/infestors is a good idea, but in practise it just cost too much gas, requires lucky baneling hits. You need a LOT of spines to stay alive and then your army is just weak and dies to everything. People at my level who have been trying this have been failing hard, but I'm not experienced enough playing against this to give you a definite answer on its viability at higher levels. I like your analogy of comparing 6 gate to 4 gate and the 'tightness' required to execute...very helpful So I take it your answer is to attack them even if they have lots of spines with 6 gate or otherwise, build up on Colossus on 2 base? To pressure, I am often scared to walk around with my gateway (sentry heavy) army for fear of zergling surrounds which has happened often to me i guess that just requires good scouting?? 2 bases if they are on 2 bases (which they should if they are rushing for this army composition). You should really scout with halucinated phoenix (use the timings for this 2 gate sentry expand thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225509) Sharking is good as well but you have to indeed be extra careful. But yeah, colossi are good against this. I guess one could also advocate going for templar tech : feedback on the infestors, and then archon for ling/bling. Archons would indeed be very good against this. It really is personal preference. However that would pretty much force you into getting zealots for mineral sink, and archon zealot is just way too vulnerable to a roach tech switch. (and zealots do pretty poorly vs banelings and infestors). Sentry/Stalker/Colo is the solid way to go imo. Also, since you're not taking an expo, you can afford a couple (not more than 5 or 6) zealots in your army composition. As Anihc said before though, try not to clump your sentries, and be reactive with your forcefielding. You don't want any FG to go down on your army before you had the chance to properly FF. Edit : This is all very personal feelings about this build I'm telling you, if you want there is an ongoing discussion about it here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223676. No one really knows what the best way to deal with it is yet, and no one really knows how effective it can be.... Some really good advice, even if it is your own opinion Geiko. Thanks a lot for your help!! BTW, wat league are you?? im only plat so alot of ppl will say improve your mechanics (which i dont agree with), but i also think its important to develop a good 'game plan' and decide on a solid build order (especially when many ppl now say that 3 gate sentry is kinda redundant now and that 2 gate sentry expand lets you expand earlier)
Mid master ^^
I'm part of those people that think that unit control (mecanics) is the first thing you should be worried about to improve. To be honest, a perfect 4 gate will bring you to master league, in all match ups.
Being really strict with your self on build tightness and reaching exact timings is really the only way to know what are the good strategies and what are the bad ones. If you are doing all your builds at + or - 30 seconds, you don't really realize that wow, I can have my second stalker at time t, which is exactly when his reaper should be coming in my base etc... When you spend a lot of time focusing on getting your timings down exactly, the pro builds make a lot more sense, and your overall approach to strategy is much better.
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What is the best reponse on seeing a Forge FE in PvP?
I feel like it should be vulnerable to a one base attack of some kind because we never see this in pro games, but which one? Or should I just do something like double expand and carry on as normal?
I'm Gold league.
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On July 07 2011 21:58 Soleron wrote:
What is the best reponse on seeing a Forge FE in PvP?
I feel like it should be vulnerable to a one base attack of some kind because we never see this in pro games, but which one? Or should I just do something like double expand and carry on as normal?
I'm Gold league.
Two responses, they should done in the following order :
1) Laugh at how naive your opponent is
2) 4 gate and win.
If he is "smart" and blocks ramp with cannons and this is tal darim or something, just get a second gas, rush to blink stalkers and win.
You may repeat step 1 as many times as you see fit.
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A few quick terran questions:
1. How many unit producing buildings can be supported by 1 base?
2. What is the correct ratio of units for MMM? How many medivacs should be built?
3. What is the correct order for upgrades? For instance, do I want combat shields before stim? Weapons before armor?
Thanks!
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In ZvZ when you defend against a 6pool. You can put workers on hold so that the opponent only attacks your zerglings due to workers on hold being lower attack priority.
How do you most efficently then attack the drones? ( or as many drones as possible )
(use stop-command, a-move, move, patrol?)
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
One general question:
Is it illegal in competitions/frowned upon by community to use programs that alter functions of your keyboard? For example I would like to use alt+tab as a hotkey, but its not possible in-game of scII, I would have to use a program that would make my tab act like for example "Q".
That doesn't break 1 key-1 action rule, but I still want to check if it is OK to use.
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What is a good response to gas steal by Zerg?
I like to go VR expand vs them, but im not sure what to do because i don't have the gas required for the sentries. I think one of a few directions:
1. Be Zealot and Stalker heavy rather, kill the Extractor, VR and expansion with standard timings but with venerability to Roach-Ling allin.
2. Kill the Extractor with Zealot and continue the standard sentry number but with delayed but safer expansion, the Zerg might get ahead.
3. 4 Gate, the Zerg will be expecting that.
4. 3 Gate expand, with less sentries and less pressure on the Zerg.
5. Much earlier 2nd Assimilator before he can steal, screws the timings and wallin completes much later.
If you have any other suggestion I would like to know.
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On July 08 2011 02:25 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
What is a good response to gas steal by Zerg?
I like to go VR expand vs them, but im not sure what to do because i don't have the gas required for the sentries. I think one of a few directions:
1. Be Zealot and Stalker heavy rather, kill the Extractor, VR and expansion with standard timings but with venerability to Roach-Ling allin.
2. Kill the Extractor with Zealot and continue the standard sentry number but with delayed but safer expansion, the Zerg might get ahead.
3. 4 Gate, the Zerg will be expecting that.
4. 3 Gate expand, with less sentries and less pressure on the Zerg.
5. Much earlier 2nd Assimilator before he can steal, screws the timings and wallin completes much later.
If you have any other suggestion I would like to know.
n°5
Doesn't screw the timings if you design your BO to have an earlier gas. I like 14 gate 15 gas 16 gas when I expand into voidray.
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sup guys, not a big poster here but a big lurker.
silver league, protoss and i have a question, whats a good way to know when i should transition into robo or into dt/ht?
I usually open up 3gate robo but then i changed my opening build to 3gate twilight council to dt since i've been having better success with that.
but then, i was thinking, i lost a few games because i didnt transition into robo for collosi or immortals or that i didn't transition into dt's or ht's.
so i guess my problem is knowing when to tech into different more important units in the meta-game?
idk if i made sense, i'm having trouble just trying to explain this myself
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Hey, If I have gateway/HT vs MMM, is it generally better to feedback the medivacs then storm or storm then feedback with whats leftover?
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Sorry this is not a strategy related question but it's still simple so i'll ask here instead of opening a thread :
Is it possible to load up a replay from windows without having to log in ?
cheers
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On July 08 2011 03:02 IstandAlone wrote:
Sorry this is not a strategy related question but it's still simple so i'll ask here instead of opening a thread :
Is it possible to load up a replay from windows without having to log in ?
cheers
try it and see, I know that if you load old version replays it will actually want to disconnect you from bnet (after you log in) to view it
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On July 08 2011 03:02 IstandAlone wrote:
Sorry this is not a strategy related question but it's still simple so i'll ask here instead of opening a thread :
Is it possible to load up a replay from windows without having to log in ?
cheers
Just make the replay open with sc2. It will still ask you to log in when game loads but you can just say play offline and it will still work.
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EPT
