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On May 01 2011 13:32 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2011 09:07 Ibaneyou wrote:'Banelings damage buildings ignores the armor of the buildings, so the +1 armor on depot is irrelevant.' Also, is this true? Yes for Banelings deal direct spell damage to buildings through an ability instead of weapon damage. Notice Banelings can't attack buildings with their weapon swings. They target buildings with the spell next to the Explode button
While it's true that their building attack is not reduced by armor, the way it is displayed in the user interface is irrelevant, since armor reduction is a setting on each individual damage effect and they are both part of the same attack, blowing up on units still deals damage to nearby buildings and vice versa.
The button is there to allow you to choose their behaviour, since in a lot of situations banelings blowing up on random buildings would be a huge waste.
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Can somone explain to me the difference between Zerg FE timings and what they are best for
IE the difference between
14 Hatch 14 Pool
15 Hatch 15 Pool
15 Hatch 14 Pool
And so on.
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I'm a high diamond player trying to get masters, but am having some troubles. Bnet keeps matching me against diamond players with lower MMR than mine, and not against masters. Even though I'm winning ~90% of my matches, in all my games I seem to be the favourite and thus they don't raise my MMR. Is this normal due to there simply being more people in diamond than in masters? Should I expect to have to slog my way through a ton of games before bnet starts matching me up against better players, or am I just getting unlucky?
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On May 03 2011 08:34 Subllat wrote:
Can somone explain to me the difference between Zerg FE timings and what they are best for
IE the difference between
14 Hatch 14 Pool
15 Hatch 15 Pool
15 Hatch 14 Pool
And so on.
Generally, the later the timing on the hatch, the greater the economic advantage, but at greater risk to early aggression. Droning in between the placement of the hatch and pool results in more optimal larvae usage as otherwise there will be 3 larvae idle, but it is at the cost of the short term economy and delays the pool.
A 10 ovie 13 hatch 15 pool 18 ovie build will result in the best long term economy, but is quite a bit more vulnerable than the 15 hatch builds.
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On May 03 2011 08:44 fredre wrote:
I'm a high diamond player trying to get masters, but am having some troubles. Bnet keeps matching me against diamond players with lower MMR than mine, and not against masters. Even though I'm winning ~90% of my matches, in all my games I seem to be the favourite and thus they don't raise my MMR. Is this normal due to there simply being more people in diamond than in masters? Should I expect to have to slog my way through a ton of games before bnet starts matching me up against better players, or am I just getting unlucky?
If your win rate is indeed 90% and you aren't dropping 10% of your games to people that the system thinks you ought not lose against, then it's just a matter of time. There's some variance in the matchmaking system that could be attributed to luck, but really it's just the "fuzziness" in the system that averages out over time.
Beyond that, the matchmaking system tracks variables that are not directly observable by us (both in a "they don't post the numbers" sense and the "the variables measure second order effects" sense), so it is difficult to conclude any specifics as to your specific situation.
Obligatory excalibur_z link about laddering: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195273
And also to spice things up, here's a link to a layman's explanation of the trueskill ranking system of which the sc2 ranking system (probably) mimics: http://www.moserware.com/2010/03/computing-your-skill.html
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I have some questions that I thought would be common but having trouble finding answers on TL, can someone help me with this:
1) PvT: Assuming Terran does a 1rax/2rax expand, what is the difference in responding as Protoss with 1 Gate FE and 2 Gate Robo (expand on 36ish supply)? I like to use 2 Gate Robo because it feels safer (im only gold player so just wanna get good at one build) but not sure how much of an economy lead I am giving FE terrans.
2) PvT: What should be my response to 3rax build, 4rax all-in, or 2 base 6rax all-in?? Should I just match Terran's barracks count with Gateways (e.g. if they 3rax, then i get 3 gates)??
3) PvP: If I know my opponent is teching to Colossus, is there a better counter unit composition wise than just getting more COlossus than him?? I tried Immortal dropping but this is quite hard - do voidrays work well?? Or will they get shot down by a mixed gateway army of zealots/stalkers??
Thanks TL 
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A couple questions:
What does it mean to play on tilt? I don't understand this term.
What are active in game chat channels other than root-gaming and teamliquid
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On May 03 2011 09:54 Probe1 wrote:
A couple questions:
What does it mean to play on tilt? I don't understand this term.
What are active in game chat channels other than root-gaming and teamliquid
"Tilt is a poker term for a state of mental or emotional confusion or frustration in which a player adopts a less than optimal strategy, usually resulting in the player becoming over-aggressive.". via wikipedia
Here's an old list of active chat channels: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=183961. Unfortunately I don't know of any more recent efforts on TL to maintain such a list.
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On May 03 2011 09:35 bankai wrote:I have some questions that I thought would be common but having trouble finding answers on TL, can someone help me with this: 1) PvT: Assuming Terran does a 1rax/2rax expand, what is the difference in responding as Protoss with 1 Gate FE and 2 Gate Robo (expand on 36ish supply)? I like to use 2 Gate Robo because it feels safer (im only gold player so just wanna get good at one build) but not sure how much of an economy lead I am giving FE terrans. 2) PvT: What should be my response to 3rax build, 4rax all-in, or 2 base 6rax all-in?? Should I just match Terran's barracks count with Gateways (e.g. if they 3rax, then i get 3 gates)?? 3) PvP: If I know my opponent is teching to Colossus, is there a better counter unit composition wise than just getting more COlossus than him?? I tried Immortal dropping but this is quite hard - do voidrays work well?? Or will they get shot down by a mixed gateway army of zealots/stalkers?? Thanks TL
Would really like to know someone's experienced thoughts on this. These have been a big problem in my play lately 
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On May 03 2011 05:40 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 13:40 Kambing wrote:On April 27 2011 13:30 Belial88 wrote:
Simple question!
Why do pro gamers always seem to move their infestors by casting fungal growth somewhere impossibly far (and then execute a move or some type of command to cancel it before it gets there)? Like for example if they want to move the infestor a screen away, they will fungal growth the edge of the screen and then execute a move command real quick so it isnt cast.
Does it make them move faster, or ignore being blocked by other units or something? It doesn't make them move faster or allow them to mineral walk or anything like that. Issuing a single fungal growth command to a group of infestors makes only one of them move forward to execute the command. What some folk do is issue a single fungal and then shift-click (i.e., queue) the group to move somewhere. The infestor that fungals will throw the fungal and then move to the clicked location; the rest of the infestors will immediately move to the clicked location. On April 27 2011 13:31 svefnleysi wrote:
I hear the term metagame thrown around a bit - what's the actual definition of the word? "The factors external to the game that affect the game itself": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MetagamingFor example, anticipating that your opponent will go forge FE-void ray on Shakuras because you saw in his match history that has done it in his last 5 Shakuras games is an example of "playing the metagame". DING DING DING. The standard strategy is not the "metagame". Anticipating the standard strategy and altering your build accordingly is part of playing the metagame. Preparing a build for a specific player would also be part of playing the metagame.
LOL. Chill's hated of incorrect "metagame" use will never get old. Given the past Weapon of Choice, I feel that the metagame is really favoring Chill right now :D
+ Show Spoiler +
Also to add something, the metagame cannot "favor Zerg" or "favor Protoss." Nor can you "change the metagame." You can only change your strategy in an attempt to "metagame" your opponent
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Are there any benefits to going 9 pylon 11 gate, is it better or worse than 10 pylon/10 gate, how is it different?
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On May 03 2011 13:03 Vathus wrote:
Are there any benefits to going 9 pylon 11 gate, is it better or worse than 10 pylon/10 gate, how is it different?
Not sure what you are talking about with 9 pylon 11 gate... 9 pylon into 12/13 gate is considered standard. 10 pylon 10 gate is very aggressive and something you will really only do if you going 2 gate or proxy 2 gate or something. If you playing standard you should be going 9 pylon 12 gate.
Edit: for extra clarification, it is redundant to go 9 pylon 11 gate. 9 pylon 12 gate let's you chrono two probes (10-12 supply) then place down your gateway. If you go 9 pylon 11 gate you will waste half a chrono since you won't have the minerals to place your gate on 11 then make another probe straight away. 12 gate allows for (almost) non stop probe production with chrono.
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hi guys,
just a short question,
SC2 is my 1st RTS and despite winning against some silver quite easily, I often lose to banshee rush or other kind of mass units like mass void rays.
So I am still staying at bronze, after about 100 games
I am wondering if this means I am just no good at zerg and should consider switching race all together?
(I am playing at SEA servers, it appears the bronze players here is quite a bit than the ones appeared in day9 daily)
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On May 03 2011 20:55 ETisME wrote:+ Show Spoiler +hi guys,
just a short question,
SC2 is my 1st RTS and despite winning against some silver quite easily, I often lose to banshee rush or other kind of mass units like mass void rays.
So I am still staying at bronze, after about 100 games
I am wondering if this means I am just no good at zerg and should consider switching race all together?
(I am playing at SEA servers, it appears the bronze players here is quite a bit than the ones appeared in day9 daily)
Zerg is a pretty difficult race to start off with.
SC2 was my first RTS as well and I only started using Zerg as my main 1v1 race once I reached gold league. I personally found that Protoss was the easiest race to start with because it has pretty simple macro mechanics and good scouting ability with the observer, (both are crucial skills for SC2). You don't have to permanently change race but you might want to try one of the others just to get used to the game mechanics.
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On May 03 2011 09:35 bankai wrote:I have some questions that I thought would be common but having trouble finding answers on TL, can someone help me with this: 1) PvT: Assuming Terran does a 1rax/2rax expand, what is the difference in responding as Protoss with 1 Gate FE and 2 Gate Robo (expand on 36ish supply)? I like to use 2 Gate Robo because it feels safer (im only gold player so just wanna get good at one build) but not sure how much of an economy lead I am giving FE terrans. 2) PvT: What should be my response to 3rax build, 4rax all-in, or 2 base 6rax all-in?? Should I just match Terran's barracks count with Gateways (e.g. if they 3rax, then i get 3 gates)?? 3) PvP: If I know my opponent is teching to Colossus, is there a better counter unit composition wise than just getting more COlossus than him?? I tried Immortal dropping but this is quite hard - do voidrays work well?? Or will they get shot down by a mixed gateway army of zealots/stalkers?? Thanks TL
1. The difference between a 1 Gate FE and a 2 Gate Robo is safety. If you know a Terran is expanding, how safe do you really need to be? A 2 Rax expand can pressure if Terran went Stim or Shells, but you should have enough units at that point to handle it. 2 Gate Robo will keep you completely safe against anything an expanding Terran can do to you at that point in the game, but you may suffer a small economic deficit because of it. It shouldn't be game breaking however and it is more about how confident you are in defending early game.
2. Sentries sentries sentries! Good forcefields from the high ground will always make defending large bio pushes much easier. If you scout heavy Marauders, get Void Rays with Zealot support if possible. This composition eats Bio really, really well. At this point in the game, you will have already committed to either a 1 base push or expanded. Sentries are better for defending an expo, while Void Ray/Zealot is good if you are just sitting on 3 Gates with no tech/expand.
3. You need to keep Colossus numbers low if possible. Blink Stalkers are great in sniping Colossi down and will work in a pinch situation. However, if you know way ahead of time that Colossi are coming, Stargate play will shut this down. Phoenix harass will help you get an econ lead and chronoed VRs will melt Colossi extremely quickly so long as you micro well.
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On May 03 2011 09:35 bankai wrote:I have some questions that I thought would be common but having trouble finding answers on TL, can someone help me with this: 1) PvT: Assuming Terran does a 1rax/2rax expand, what is the difference in responding as Protoss with 1 Gate FE and 2 Gate Robo (expand on 36ish supply)? I like to use 2 Gate Robo because it feels safer (im only gold player so just wanna get good at one build) but not sure how much of an economy lead I am giving FE terrans. 2) PvT: What should be my response to 3rax build, 4rax all-in, or 2 base 6rax all-in?? Should I just match Terran's barracks count with Gateways (e.g. if they 3rax, then i get 3 gates)?? 3) PvP: If I know my opponent is teching to Colossus, is there a better counter unit composition wise than just getting more COlossus than him?? I tried Immortal dropping but this is quite hard - do voidrays work well?? Or will they get shot down by a mixed gateway army of zealots/stalkers?? Thanks TL
1) If you 2 gate robo expand against a 1 rax or 2 rax expand, you will be behind. Nothing game deciding of course, but imo I consider 1 rax expand to be a "soft" counter to 2 gate robo expand. Note that if you scout a 1 rax expand and you had planned on 2 gate robo into standard macro game, there's no reason you shouldn't just switch to 1 gate expand instead. Of course, that's not always easy to scout out...
2) You can defend a terran's barracks count with 1 less gateway yourself. So if they 3 rax, you can defend with 2 gate. This is a huge generalization though - if they are going for some kind of barracks only all in, 2 gate robo into 1 base colossus is perfectly fine if you have a ramp that you can FF. Against 2 6 rax, anything standard is fine, whether you're doing mass gateway/upgrade or standard colossus/gateway off 2 base.
3) Stargate play is decent against robo (although you will still want to transition into something else mid-late game such as colossus yourself). Early game phoenix/immortal works surprisingly well. My favorite though is blink into chargelots. Pure blink stalker/chargelot does ok against colossus armies when the colossus count is still low (2-3), but you need to flank well and not get screwed by FF. With this kind of army, you can easily get map control, get a big economic lead, and switch to mass void rays late game if your opponent is turtling. But getting more colossus than him is the easiest :p
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didn't want to start a new thread so i will post here.
If as zerg I select all the larvas at all my hatches, and then start builiding units, where do the units will build first?
example: i have my main and natural, with 5 larva each. I select all 10 larva and build 6 roaches. will it be 3 at main and 3 at natural, 5 at main and 1 at nat or maybe else?
thanks for your replies
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On May 03 2011 16:25 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:03 Vathus wrote:
Are there any benefits to going 9 pylon 11 gate, is it better or worse than 10 pylon/10 gate, how is it different? Not sure what you are talking about with 9 pylon 11 gate... 9 pylon into 12/13 gate is considered standard. 10 pylon 10 gate is very aggressive and something you will really only do if you going 2 gate or proxy 2 gate or something. If you playing standard you should be going 9 pylon 12 gate. Edit: for extra clarification, it is redundant to go 9 pylon 11 gate. 9 pylon 12 gate let's you chrono two probes (10-12 supply) then place down your gateway. If you go 9 pylon 11 gate you will waste half a chrono since you won't have the minerals to place your gate on 11 then make another probe straight away. 12 gate allows for (almost) non stop probe production with chrono.
You're wrong. I don't know about PvZ and PvT, but it is a great build in PvP. It's not the most common build out there (12 gate is still standard), but many pros have been seen using it. When you go 11 gate, you actually don't chrono out your 11th probe, you build your 11th probe without chrono, gateway, then 1 chrono starting with your 12th probe. Generally then the rest of your chronos go on your warpgate tech, and the benefit to the 11 gate is that your warpgate tech comes out earlier than a standard 12 gate. Your eco is slightly weaker than standard 12 gate but the faster warpgate timing translates into an advantage in either allowing you to be aggressive early on, or in defending a 4 gate. I won't go into details here, but I believe there is a PvP 11 gate into 3 gate guide somewhere in the strat forums.
As for 10 gate, you either use that for some proxy shenanigans, or a super fast warpgate rush (i.e. k4g, or a stalker-based 3 gate). Counter-intuitively, 10 gate can also be used defensively. For example, I have even seen players like Tyler experiment with a 10 gate into super early robo to get an immortal out to defend 4 gate. Another benefit to 10 gate is that you're less susceptible to cheese, and in case your opponent plays standard, you can catch up on econ later because your opponent should feel threatened and will likely cut probes.
In other words, 10 gate, 11 gate, 12 gate, and 13 gate are all viable builds especially in PvP, and there are advantages/disadvantages to each and they're not all as simple as "the earlier the gate, the worse your econ and the more aggressive you are."
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On May 04 2011 02:27 garett wrote:
didn't want to start a new thread so i will post here.
If as zerg I select all the larvas at all my hatches, and then start builiding units, where do the units will build first?
example: i have my main and natural, with 5 larva each. I select all 10 larva and build 6 roaches. will it be 3 at main and 3 at natural, 5 at main and 1 at nat or maybe else?
thanks for your replies
TL;DR: I just realized I wrote too much for a simple answer. Easy to get me talking about something I've been looking into I suppose. In short, you will get roughly even production but the specifics are unknown.
===
This is actually somewhat of an open question that I need to sit down and figure out one of these days. Here's what I do know via the testing I've done in the past:
1) The order in which you build larva from your hatches is in-order (top-left to bottom right) from the selection of larva obtained when you press the Select Larva command on a set of hatches. So the problem is really determining what order the game places your larva in when you press that button.
2) From observation, it appears that the game smartly orders larva in a group (via Select Larva) so that if there is an equal amount of larva among your hatches, then the sequence of larva in the selection is roughly in a round-robin style . That is, if you have three hatches, then such a selection is possible:
2 1 3 | 3 1 2 | 2 1 3 | ...
where the pipes ('|') are visual aids in demarcating the groups of larva I'm talking about. So if you produce 3N units, then those 3N units will be distributed evenly across your 3 hatches.
I say roughly because I've seen instances such as:
2 1 2 3 1 3 |
where 2 consecutive larva from one hatch appear before larva from the other two hatches in a sequence, but never 3. So that gives me reason to believe that there is some smart grouping here rather than the sequence being completely random.
3) The sequence of larva you get from a selection is not stable. That is, new larva are not necessarily appended to the end of the sequence. For example, if you produce all larva at one hatch but not the other 2 hatches, then the new larva at that first hatch will be inserted into the sequence of larva so that it is roughly round-robin as described before.
Other than those 3 things, I don't know the precise algorithm that larva is ordered (in general, any selection of units of the same type) which affects whether we get an even distribution with the one production hotkey method. In particular, I only looked at un-injected hatches for simplicity's sake as injections can mess up the ordering (but shouldn't fundamentally change how things are ordered).
Besides all these technicalities, we can probably say for certain that the distribution of units is "even enough" for most practical purposes.
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On May 04 2011 02:52 Kambing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 02:27 garett wrote:
didn't want to start a new thread so i will post here.
If as zerg I select all the larvas at all my hatches, and then start builiding units, where do the units will build first?
example: i have my main and natural, with 5 larva each. I select all 10 larva and build 6 roaches. will it be 3 at main and 3 at natural, 5 at main and 1 at nat or maybe else?
thanks for your replies TL;DR: I just realized I wrote too much for a simple answer. Easy to get me talking about something I've been looking into I suppose. In short, you will get roughly even production but the specifics are unknown. === This is actually somewhat of an open question that I need to sit down and figure out one of these days. Here's what I do know via the testing I've done in the past: 1) The order in which you build larva from your hatches is in-order (top-left to bottom right) from the selection of larva obtained when you press the Select Larva command on a set of hatches. So the problem is really determining what order the game places your larva in when you press that button. 2) From observation, it appears that the game smartly orders larva in a group (via Select Larva) so that if there is an equal amount of larva among your hatches, then the sequence of larva in the selection is roughly in a round-robin style . That is, if you have three hatches, then such a selection is possible:
2 1 3 | 3 1 2 | 2 1 3 | ...
where the pipes ('|') are visual aids in demarcating the groups of larva I'm talking about. So if you produce 3N units, then those 3N units will be distributed evenly across your 3 hatches. I say roughly because I've seen instances such as:
2 1 2 3 1 3 |
where 2 consecutive larva from one hatch appear before larva from the other two hatches in a sequence, but never 3. So that gives me reason to believe that there is some smart grouping here rather than the sequence being completely random. 3) The sequence of larva you get from a selection is not stable. That is, new larva are not necessarily appended to the end of the sequence. For example, if you produce all larva at one hatch but not the other 2 hatches, then the new larva at that first hatch will be inserted into the sequence of larva so that it is roughly round-robin as described before. Other than those 3 things, I don't know the precise algorithm that larva is ordered (in general, any selection of units of the same type) which affects whether we get an even distribution with the one production hotkey method. In particular, I only looked at un-injected hatches for simplicity's sake as injections can mess up the ordering (but shouldn't fundamentally change how things are ordered). Besides all these technicalities, we can probably say for certain that the distribution of units is "even enough" for most practical purposes.
thanks you sir for your detailed and fast answer!
So if I understood that correctly, if I have 3 hatches, each with some larvae, I select all larvae, build 3 roaches, I will then have one roach at each hatch?
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EPT
