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If you're reading this forum, you know that scouting is a crucial part of this game, for all three races. However, sending a probe out at 9 supply, circling your opponent's base, and then running back home isn't the best way to use the knowledge.
In this thread, let's share tips on "reading" scouting information in-game.
Here are a few:
If you scout a Terran player with a Refinery built before a barracks is complete, there is a good likelihood that he will be going for fast Hellions.
If you spot a spawning pool that completes before gas is built, your opponent is likely rushing to Roaches.
What kinds of tips can you share that help us use the info we see (buildings, mostly) and turn that into actionable knowledge? (I can use unit X to counter their plan!)
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Gas before rax does not mean fast hellions. Gas before rax means fast tech. This tech could be hellions, banshees, thor, etc... I like this idea for a thread, but it would be better if people could provide a reason behind their "Scout X ----> They'll have Y" rather than just saying it.
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Against a protoss, you should always keep your scout in the main until the first ranged unit is made. This can tell you a great deal, as you will see fast expansions, whether or not they rush their second gas for tech, a quick second gateway, etc. Also, as zerg once the stalker comes out you can steal the second gas, as that delay will often cause a huge dent in the timing of the Protoss build order.
I'd also encourage the OP to extend the post to discuss information you gain from poking up a ramp. A skill that's underused and often gives information that's unused.
What a bunker vs wall for a T means? Add-on for a barracks at wall vs no add on? Protoss unit comp at top of ramp, sentries or stalkers? Etc.
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If you see an early double gas from protoss, and don't see sentries later, it means either starport or robo tech.
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Are there any signs differentiating between voids and dts in the TvP matchup?
Against terran gas before rax usually means banshees, but it could mean hellions and even super fast tanks/thors. Check gas mined if your not sure, if its more then 50 its probably an early gas. Rax after gas could mean a variety of things still, but its probably a more macro oriented build. Keep your probe in the base until the marine pops, then try to live for a bit and see if a tech lab goes down, if it does your going to be facing a bioball.
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Since no one else has said it I'll state the obvious no buildings in base and no expo=proxy or he sucks.
The difference between VRs and DTs nothing in affect so you have to scan.
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On January 25 2011 08:26 statikg wrote:
Are there any signs differentiating between voids and dts in the TvP matchup?
Against terran gas before rax usually means banshees, but it could mean hellions and even super fast tanks/thors. Check gas mined if your not sure, if its more then 50 its probably an early gas. Rax after gas could mean a variety of things still, but its probably a more macro oriented build. Keep your probe in the base until the marine pops, then try to live for a bit and see if a tech lab goes down, if it does your going to be facing a bioball.
Try to find where the second pylon goes down for Protoss. If it's off to the side and not also powering the first gateway, try to scan there to look for any hidden tech. There's no way to distinguish between the two (voids/DTs) with your scouting SCV against a good protoss.
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I feel as a 2500 diamond protoss I can make a good contribution here...
When going against toss, We will say ZvP for example here...
He walls with Gateway and Cyber Core and a zealot. Keep the zerglings poking there and attack the gateway untill you see the second ranged unit...
Stalker = Most likely early pressure
Sentry = Most likely Expo
If you see the Cyber Core being chrono boosted and a stalker it is safe to assume 4gate so you better prepare accordingly.
But better make sure and sac an overlord.
In the TvP match up, if you have walled up and you are at a higher level you should just expect the 3gate void ray pressure. If you see a second gas early and no sentries, expect a robo or stargate tech so prepare accordingly for that. As the normal things no attempt at a 2nd gas by 21-24 supply expect a 4gate. I have unfortunately found out that if a terran player sees sentries and no robo tech then there will be a timing window from the time that the expansionn goes up that the terran is able to abuse a seige tank marauder push that will SIGNIFIGANTLY put the protoss behind so why not use it? A big thing to watch out for when you see a 2nd gas and you see the SG tech and you are on cross positions you will most likely see pheonix harass prepare with stim rines/turrets etc. the protoss will most likely move out with 4 pheonixs so keep an eye out for that.
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hmm i need help scouting as well lol, as terran, no gas early on probably means a fast expo. 2 gas means teching up. lol thats all i already know besides obvious ones like tech lab on starport=banshees.
but anyone else have any scouting tips, especially against protoss?
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Protoss tells more by the way he acts than early scouting. If he is walling on one base air is very likely. As terran, if you see early gas and mainly zealots and stalkers, expect a collosus push.
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As zerg, sometimes I scout 2 gateways, and a core warping in. But the toss isn't chronoing out zealots for 2 gate pressure (or even building anything out of their gateways besides 1 zealot for the ramp). What gives? What does this build go for? Or are they just not being efficient players?
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On March 14 2011 23:43 bbulzibar wrote:
As zerg, sometimes I scout 2 gateways, and a core warping in. But the toss isn't chronoing out zealots for 2 gate pressure (or even building anything out of their gateways besides 1 zealot for the ramp). What gives? What does this build go for? Or are they just not being efficient players?
Only reason I could see him doing this is if he thought you were 8 pooling or doing some sort of ling rush. Other than that, he's behind on tech so his 4 gate is delayed, 3 gate FE delayed, VR/Pheonixes are delayed, pretty much all openings lol.
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On March 14 2011 23:43 bbulzibar wrote:
As zerg, sometimes I scout 2 gateways, and a core warping in. But the toss isn't chronoing out zealots for 2 gate pressure (or even building anything out of their gateways besides 1 zealot for the ramp). What gives? What does this build go for? Or are they just not being efficient players?
They're just being crappy and inefficient. If they aren't going for any kind of early zealot push, the second gateway is worthless. Toss can't mount any kind of significant attack without being all-in prior to the 6 minute mark (you know, when warpgate is done). If you scout protoss with a second, useless gate, and a late cybercore, punish him with roaches.
My scouting assumptions:
PvZ
- Unapproachable nat with lots of spines/lings, mutas on the way.
- 4 gas, 9 minute mutas
- 2 base, good mineral saturation, 2 gas, roach opening
PvZ early scouting is all about determining whether or not they're going for a muta harass or a roach/ling push. Inferring builds from the front is hard vs Zerg but being able to cut the 100/100 for hallu out of your build is nice.
PvT
- Bunker on ramp. Hellion drop or banshee, probably both
- Tech lab on first rax, 3 rax or some kind of marauder opening
Early scouting is really the only thing to worry about in PvT, as I make a shit ton of observers fast to both scout drops and follow their tech path. Unless it's a3 rax, which requires using your robo for immortals.
PvP
- 1 gas, 4 gate
- 2 gas, fake second gas, still probably a 4 gate
My PvP strategy is largely focused around expanding behind a 4 gate while they continually forcefield their ramp. If they try tech, it just makes their one base come online even slower. Expanding and throwing down a robo transitions as best as you can out of a 4 gate.
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I'm sure most people here know but figured its worth mentioning.
If a zealot is part of the wall off or your worker is trapped by some sort of unit, clicking on the mineral patch inside/outside the base allows you to go through those units.
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The difference between voids and dts is that he'll save chronoboost for the first but not for the latter (obviously each build can be masked to the detriment of efficiency).
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Here's some tips for toss scouting against terran:
First probe stays in the base, and will probably die to the marine but it's worth it.
gas before rax = tech. If you don't see the rax down in his base that probably means proxy reaper. Send probes to try and kill that building scv. Very uncommon now. If the regular rax goes down, scout his base. If a tech lab goes up on the rax that might mean 2 rax marauders - get another probe to check for a second proxy rax. If a marine comes out of that rax then you should be looking for a factory going down immediatly. Also, you may want to gas steal but this will hurt you if he's doing 2 rax proxy marauder, so I wouldn't be that keen on it.
If you see a marine pop out of the rax, then poke with a zealot and stalker. If there is a tech lab before marine then it's marauder comming out first and don't poke (+ you can stay in his base long enough to se the marauder)
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On January 25 2011 08:16 MoreFaSho wrote:
If you see an early double gas from protoss, and don't see sentries later, it means either starport or robo tech.
Or a DT rush. As mentioned by dementio above, watch the chronoboosts to see which. Stored up energy = robo or stargate, spend chrono likely means DT rush is coming.
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For those looking to find the difference between voids and dts there is a slight way to TRY to find out.
Keep a scout until his core is done and look for his next tech structure.
- Twilight = blink or dts
- Stargate = voids
If he chronos out a stalker to kill the scout so he can keep you in the dark, take solace in the fact that you delayed him a good 30 seconds at least.
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I play Z and am currently matched against high diamond (hopefully I'll get promoted to masters soon)
Here are my scouting methods:
- Send 1st overlord to the outskirts of his base (to die at 36 food), send second to your natural expo (P & T) to scout cannons or bunkers
- Control towers with lings.
- Put 1 ling at the bottom of opponents ramp aka rampling (and poke)
- Put the other ling near the rampling but out of his LoS (so if a push comes you can check for expo or see his push)
- Replace rampling if he dies during pokes
- I always sac an overlord @ ~36 food (for T and P) because thats when they commit to something.
- If he grabs his nat I send a ling to his 3rd
- Make sure you spread overlords around the perimeter of your base (where ground can't attack them) to scout drops.
- With ZvZ have an overlord just chill above his ramp and nat
ZvP
I send scouting drone when 2nd overlord popsout
Here's the info I can grab w/ the drone:
- Nothing in base or nat = proxy gate or cannons at my nat
- 2 gate = lots of zealots
- Forge = fast expand or cannons at my natural (pylon forge at the bottom of his ramp = fast expo)
- 2 gas means (fast air, delayed 4 gate gas heavy, or 3 gate something)
Lots of saved energy on nexus means (4 gate)
Info from scouting lings:
- Nonstop chrono on core w/ more than 1 zealot = 4gate
- Zealots a lot w/ no expo or chronos on core (Going Air, Immortal drop (rarely), DTs (rarely))
- Expansion
Also, always keep track of the scouting probe. I've lost a handful of games to proxy buildings or just proxy pylons being in my base =/.
ZvT
Info from scouting drone
2 gas = mech or banshee play
2 rax = marine pressure/ bunker push
Info from lings:
1 base, 2 factory (1 reactor 1 tech) = blue flame thor all-in or blue flame tank all-in(rarely)
Marines like more than 5 (early on) (Marine heavy army, Bio, or Marine Tank)
Info from his pushes:
If you're attacked by marines then harrassed by hellions (non-blue flame)... get ready for banshees
ZvZ
It's tougher to grab scouting info for this matchup since it's so volatile
scouting overlord tends to find the expand
Lots of lings with low baneling or low roach = mutas
Other tips:
Fast Banshee or Fast Voidray happen at ~ 7 minutes
First marine comes out @ ~3:11
Lings/overlords/Mutas offer a lot of mobility... use it to scout valuable information.
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Since many suggestions have gone over possible builds, I would recommend playing other races besides your own.
Although playing 1 race probably suits your style and helps you become a better player, ive been playing more as random to become well suited to exact timings (literally time), and understanding BO.
The hardest thing for me is scouting a walled off protoss vs any race. You can usually tell if its a 4gate from the chronoboosts and the early units, but i usually try to throw my opponents off balance by going dts (depending on what hes doing and on my scouting). When i go straight to dts it usually takes me around 5:45-6 min, and around this time i would suspect a 4gate or an expand. The straight pathway leaves me vulnerable and depends on his scouting as well.
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I play zerg in high diamond match-ups. these are a few i use off the top of my head.
i always drone scout and usually sac first ov at around 5 minutes vs t and p
zvp
-2 gates - zealot rush
-forge first in base - probably cannon rush
-forge first bottom of ramp - fe
-gate core 1 gas - either fe or 4 gate, keep scouting
-gate core 1 gas nothing else (no extra pylons) - korean 4 gate (usually try to build 3 gates and a few pylons at once to suprise you more)
-gate core 2 gas - either sentry expand or tech, keep scouting
-1 base stargate - either pheonix expand or voidray push
-1 base robo - usually and immortal push, could be a drop play or really fast collossus
-twilight council - blink stalkers or dt's (usually can tell if they chronoboost the council but dont get faked out)
-robo support bay - collossus
-2 base 6 gate - timing push that you almost need burrowed roach to hold
zvt
-no gas - 1 rax expand, 4 rax, or 2 rax rush (will usually try to hide or proxy second rax
-2 rax - either 2 rax expand, bunker rush, or marine scv all-in
-3/4 rax no gas - 4 rax all-in with scv's
-fast gas - tech
-tech-lab barracks - blue flame hellion or 3 rax push (marauder/marine)
-reactor barracks - double hellion or fast mass marines
-a few rax and a tech lab - bio with seige tanks and possibly thors
-starport with tech lab - banshees (possibly raven)
-starport with reactor - lots of medivacs (get ready for a bunch of drops), or vikings for overlord harass
zvz
-gas pool no expo - speedling into expo or banes
-pool gas no expo - non speedling banelings (faster banelings)
-hatch first - scout to see if its being followed up with roach or banes
-pool delayed gas no expo - roach
-1 base evo chamber - +1 speedlings
-if you ever see mutas - build some spores, start hydra or infestor tech, and go hit with roaches, you should have more roaches and be able to win right there (dont be afraid to back off if you cant though)
there are more, I just can't think of any more right now.
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Thanks @flyguy and @offhand. I figured it was just being inefficient, but wasn't sure if it was some sort of obscure stalker pressure play!
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hi all, i have a scouting question,
I recently started playing sc2 again. Im a Terran, and i notice something that can sometimes really anger me.
I know my scouting is not horrible but for some reason by the time i make a "timed push" as they call it i always get attacked when my army is somehwere else, it pains me to backtrank my intire army all the way back to defend. (e.a. by marine drop, mutas..) god muta's really makes my teeth clinche! And afterwards im to scared to push again.
this is not good for me, because i also notice that most of my wins are with pressure plays. and not the macro until 200 and make a doom push.
Are there any tips for me not to be suprised with my pants down?
so the question in short:
how do you make sure its safe to make a attack while knowing its safe to do so.
hope you people have some good advice for me.
ps. when i playd at the beginning of sc2 (also beta) i was top gold and i noticed this was less of a trouble for me. But i cant seem to get why i have so much trouble with it now.
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OP could you please conglomerate all this information into your first post in a reasonable, readable format? much like how Shurely has written it out, e.g.
Zerg
ZvP
scouting info
etc...
Terran
TvZ
scouting info
etc etc
For future readers of the thread as well as lazy people such as myself. Take responsibility for your thread.
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really good idea for a thread, i've been wanting to know some of these things for a while
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EPT
