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On January 24 2011 20:49 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 20:38 TehForce wrote:
4gate blink
dts
5gate
are not really considered as cheese.
if you're very good at cheesing you can get into masters with it. i don't doubt that. but you will never win a tourney with it against the same players because after the first game they will activly look around and easily deny it.
Dts i said was the cheesy version with mass unscouted Dts  Also, 1base 5gate is definitly cheese. 4 gate blink stalkers i have never seen anyone transition into anything else once it failed so i would say it falls under the category cheese/all in/whatever.
i have seen failed 6pool rushes transitioned to an expo and macro game, does that mean 6pool isn't cheese?
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Besides your opener I'm not sure if what you are doing consitutes as cheese anymore, as I'm sure it takes a fair bit of skill to choose the build you want to transition to and some degree of macro to get the resources to support. I consider cheese more as a blind opening build to force a quick gg if it goes unscouted, and your combo cheese is more of a reactionary style-play to exploit your opponents openings
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On January 24 2011 21:29 OCsurfeR wrote:
Stop complaining about it and dismissing those who use it as having no skill. As with anything, those that rely ONLY on cheese will never stay at the top. However, those that use it as part of their playbook to mix it up and keep their opponents guessing are great players.
Complaining is understandable if you take into account what every cheese player already admits. The cheesing player thinks he's gonna loose in a long run game. Maybe it's the map, the balance or that simply the other player is that much greater.
But it's undeniable that the cheesing player is trying to steal what it's not rightfully his. The best player deserves to win, the one with better control, decision making, ect.
The player that cheeses is just like a teacher. He decides the game he wants to play, he imposes it. If the better player, who is the better all arround player, is worst at defending the picky timming window or technique that the cheesing player chose, he looses.
If you think that a style of game that ignores most aspects of it by forcing a result early should be respected, by all means, do. I choose not to.
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I am going to have to disagree with a lot of the opinions here about cheese being for the unskilled.
I was a 2.5K Zerg in Diamond pre-patch. I had switched over to 2v2 because I felt like my macro style wasn't really being rewarded as much.
I have since switched to Toss, I have pretty much cheesed every other game/every third game (Proxy gates, 4gates, 2 gate stargates, 6 gate timing pushes etc) and have had really good success despite not know the race very well. Currently siting at 2.2K masters with a fairly big bonus pool.
All and all, I have good mechanics, but I cheese because a.) it is fun to make up crazy cheese strategies, b.) it is good micro practice, c.) I like to mix it up, and d.) revenge is sweet.
I am sure that if I didn't play anyone twice in a row, I could cheese every game and win just as many games as I do now.
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On January 25 2011 01:46 Geiko wrote:
Not going to go in the age old debate of what is cheese, and what isn't. I use the term cheese for strategies which give you a high probability of success if your opponent doesn't scout it, and leaves you behind if it fails.
I don't know at what level you guys are playing, but a scouted 5 gate against zerg or scouted 4 gate blink means that the build WILL fail, and you have to try something else. You are cutting probes so you are behind on economy.
All in is a strategy you can't recover from if it fails (not necesseraly cheese). I really feel all the builds mentionned in the OP are cheeses.
Anyways, the point of the OP was that there is no correct ways (to learn how) to play. You shouldn't be telling bronze people to macro hard and never cheese, in fact, i believe the best way to learn the game is to use all sorts of cheesy one base plays at the beginning. These are insanely easy to execute at low level meaning you will be facing good players faster and learning more than staying in bronze getting 6pooled/ cannon rushed / etc... every single game.
Have you diamond/master ever tried getting in a random custom game against some gold/silver/bronze players ? I do customs to test builds when none of my practise partners are around and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a decent game to learn from. All the games are silly one base pushes with people usualy leaving once it fails. Now imagine a bronze player following "good" advice and trying to macro up only to lose to some cannoning or 6 pooling.
Going to quote this for emphasis. You aren't going to learn to macro your way out of bronze/silver/etc. I rarely if ever saw early expos from anything but zergs, and even then, they just transitioned into basically all-ins. I see better macro play from gold 4 v 4 players than from gold 1 v 1ers.
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Wish zerg had more viable cheese strategies. I hate having to switch races to do a non 6 pool cheese build.
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whenever i get cheesed by a toss, i always jsut assume they'll go dts afterwards.
this thread has verified my assumptions.
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Does that cannon-rush-in-your-opponents base for PvP on xel naga still work? The one where you block off your probe with 2 pylons behind the mineral line and then put a cannon that can attack the workers and nexus?
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geiko another informative post. i agree that its possible to make masters with cheese.
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Cheese is a tactic which if scouted fails.
The only true test of a players skill is how often he wins, whether he wins in 3 minutes or 30 doesn't affect it.
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the amount of cheese in ladder games forces the Z to play supersafe .. being the "victim-race" can be frustrating, however by the time you get used to be superparanoid scouting your own base (against P) instead that of your opponent. Crushing a cheese build definitely has a fun factor  .
Sad side is, if a P decides to play heavy macro, safe play can set you behind a lot..
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Honestly, if you're good at cheese, and you can consistently win games with it, I don't see what the problem is.
I guess the only problem is what some other people already pointed out, that in tournaments people start to prepare for cheese, which gives them like an instant 70% additional win chance.
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On January 25 2011 04:33 GlocKomA wrote:
I am sure that if I didn't play anyone twice in a row, I could cheese every game and win just as many games as I do now.
I am sure that if you play 3 games someone twice in a row, you would be murdered by a psycopath mass murderer magical elephant.
See how easy is to make claims with no backup whatsoever?
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What are the best TERRAN cheeses for each match-up?
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Masters doesn't mean shit. Ladder doesn't mean shit. And if you need proof...
My last game which placed me in master went like this : failed cannon rush into scouted darkshrine into raping his base with proxy void rays.
you guys can keep debating on what will get you ladder wins, while good players are discussing about what will get them tournament wins.
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On January 25 2011 01:56 underdawg wrote:
I'm not surprised. What would be interesting is if someone got highly ranked only knowing his cheese builds. I'd think that even pro cheesers must learn to play "standard" to perfect their cheese.
I know of at least 8 people who are consistently in the top 200 who utilize cheese for the majority of their games. There are more, I'm sure, but I only personally know 8 of them. This is why I don't really care too much about ladder, it's not indicative of skill by any means.
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i dunno if you are gonna cheese every game id pick terran. more variety and its so much stronger.
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On January 25 2011 04:49 OfficerTJHooker wrote:
Honestly, if you're good at cheese, and you can consistently win games with it, I don't see what the problem is.
I guess the only problem is what some other people already pointed out, that in tournaments people start to prepare for cheese, which gives them like an instant 70% additional win chance.
There's no "problem", just an opinion that there's going to be a bigger and more difficult "ramp up" if you rank up with cheese and then need to learn to add in standard play than if you rank up with standard play.
Going to quote this for emphasis. You aren't going to learn to macro your way out of bronze/silver/etc. I rarely if ever saw early expos from anything but zergs, and even then, they just transitioned into basically all-ins. I see better macro play from gold 4 v 4 players than from gold 1 v 1ers.
Early expo isn't the only way to have solid macro. Picking a solid build that does reasonably well against most things and just macroing it solid gets you pretty far, whether that's a 3-gate expo or Forge FE. If you throw in a modicum of scouting, adaptation, positioning, and just general good decision making, it can get you to Diamond no problem.
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On January 25 2011 01:37 Hider wrote:
Cheese = A tactic or strategi that is relatively easy counterable if scouted by the opponent.
All in = An attack which puts you far behind if you dont win the engagement.
Hence Cheese and all in can be the same thing. LIke proxy gating or cannon rushing (given that these are attacks). Though one can make a 2 base all in attack that is not easy countered by the opponent, and is therefore allinish but not cheesy.
All early game surprise attacks or 1-base all-ins are not created equal. That's why I don't agree w/ the OP's definition of cheese. For example people like to lump cheese w/ having no skill to execute, but all of the builds listed by the OP takes at least a decent amount of skill to execute, mostly micro-oriented, outside of cannon rushing in PvP. If you equate cheese to having no skill, you can't consider proxy rax/early marine aggression cheese when you look at how MKP can micro marines.
Personally I only consider cheeses to be things that rely on your opponent not knowing how to react to win. Things like 6-pool & cannon rushing. I don't even remember the last time I lost to a 6 pool (cannon rushing is a bit different in that you kind of have to know beforehand the optimal cannon placement locations, but once you learn that it is the same deal). 4-Gate Blink Stalkers OTOH is pretty hard to stop by a FE'ing zerg on certain maps, even if he knows it is coming well beforehand. Plus it takes a decent amount of micro to execute well.
And the whole crux of the OP's arguement is that people say not to learn cheese/all-ins because it doesn't make you a better player are wrong? Who are these people, because nobody really says that, he is just twisting words. For example I guarantee you there is no protoss in masters league that does not know how to 4-gate. Nearly everybody has/does 1-base timing attacks, even pros. He's basically arguing against nobody.
The real reason people say to work on your macro game is because that is the hardest thing to master. 1-base all-in timings attacks can be more or less mastered relatively quickly. At that point you should move on and work on other parts of your game, which for almost everybody is their macro game. This is the correct way of thinking if see the ladder as practice and want to improve overall. For those who think anybody cares what your ladder rating is, and if "cheesing" helps you inflate your rating because your macro is subpar comparatively, then go ahead. But it's a pointless endeavor because really, nobody cares what your rating is.
Of course if you just "cheese" because this is how you like to play the game that's another thing, nobody can tell you how to enjoy playing. But that's not the arguement the OP is trying to make.
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Played against a Toss that cannon rushed me earlier - defended it but ended up losing to proxy Stargate (guess it was his backup plan).
Checked his stats: 1,765 games played.
Every single one of his most recent games was a cannon rush. Every single one. No exceptions. Honestly wouldn't be surprised if all 1,765 were cannon rushes.
It really is demotivating when you're laddering to come up against this kind of player.
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EPT
