EPT[D] "Master on cheese only" tested by geiko - Page 8
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Steel
Japan2283 Posts
| ||
|
BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On January 25 2011 19:58 iEchoic wrote: We all know that cheese is a part of Starcraft, but I am constantly reminded how BIG of a part of Starcraft it is. PiQLiQ has gotten to #1 basically by cheesing, and we even had a player in the biggest tournament in the world (BitByBit) basically cheesing exclusively. I'm starting to wonder if this represents a huge flaw in game design. Cheese isn't necessarily detrimental to a game but it's open for discussion when you can get that kind of success with it. think BBB was more of a one hit wonder since people werent used to such relentless allin builds. what he does is usually countered well now that people are used to it. but yeah its something to think about. its sad when you see someone who 100% 4gates/3gatevoid with 60 apm in highish masters. also sad when i play vs a buddy with t/z (my mainraces i ladder with) and we go 50/50 and then i play P,my worst race, only try to cheese/allin as hard as possible and suddenly win 4 games in a row. | ||
|
Tibson
Germany85 Posts
 | ||
|
imbecile
563 Posts
Criticising stylistic choices is stupid, especially when those choices work. | ||
|
Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On January 25 2011 20:56 Tibson wrote: To the chess/sc2 discussion: how 'bout a map without the fog of war? Could produce some interesting (and boring) games Neither. All you would see is 1 basing as expanding would be virtually impossible. | ||
|
tar
Germany991 Posts
On January 25 2011 20:07 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: So the GSL is full of bad players I read from this? Also, you could just as well say that if you macro all the time, you will lose against players that outmacro you but can't hold of a 6pool. Being able to hold of a 6pool is part of the game. IdrA's play is also usually really one-dimensional, he's really good at making drones, a really useful skill toi have. On the other side are players like HayprO and Morrow, who lose a lot because they made too many drones, is their macro 'good' then, any person can just make drones when they should be making attacking units? If anything, they take a risk and hope the other person doesn't attack. Nope, it requires your opponent to make a mistake. Games of chess are rarely won by brilliant moves, even at the highest level, they are won by questionable moves by the opposing party. So what you say is that SC2 would fair better without a fog of war? Would taking an expansion ever win the game then? Ah, so taking an expansion is skillells, as is droning up hard, as is taking a watchtower, as is knowing how to scout, as is knowing how to hide your spire, as is observer placement and supply depot placement, after all, it doesn't win you a game anymore in a maphack-style variant of SC2. I don't see what point u r trying to make here. Lochat disproved that horrible analogy, while u defend the mechanics of sc2. Completely different things. | ||
|
Hane
France210 Posts
add, toss don't have cool harass like T or insane mobility like Z (prism+zeal is too expensive imo), or macro good mechanism - chronoboosting too much probes make your army weak cause you need lots of mineral to make probes+pylon - | ||
Poopi
France13023 Posts
On January 25 2011 21:05 imbecile wrote: I say play any style you like and have most fun with, and try to do it as well as you can, and train the skillset you need for your style. Criticising stylistic choices is stupid, especially when those choices work. Cheeses/allins is a stylistic choice? That works cuz protoss is broken from a long time and they still get buffed, it's a bit sad. | ||
|
MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On January 25 2011 20:37 Scrimpton wrote: I did it with a spare account, I main Z at the time with no P experience at all. Diamond in 40 or so games using proxy 2gate vs all races, masters league took 30 games after the patch, using a mix of proxy 2gate and 4gate vs all races. The funny thing is, all the protoss on my friend list in masters/diamond, when i check their match history, all the games are like 7-8 mins, usually 4gates.. They get very very defensive when you ask them about it.. they "swear to god" that they only 4gate 5-10% of their games, when in reality its like 80% of their wins It does feel like the race is holding up these players compared to T/Z. Yes the problem is that most Protoss cheese is so very easy to execute, yet powerful and with very little drawback if it does not work. If a Protoss player manages to go pylon->Gateway in a Terran players base he will win the game. But if the Terran players notices and attacks the pylon before the gateway is finished he can just cancel the Gateway without having lost anything. Same thing if he goes chronobosted early zealots on a small map, he attacks you just as get your first marine out, you must micro like hell to not lose the game right there while Protoss can just A-move into your base. And if his attack does not work he is still on even grounds + have scouting information on your base. Also warpgates are also a kind of cheese since it negates the defenders advantage completely. In Age of Empires if you wanted to get units to the front faster you needed a forward base and if you lost that forward base you had a real disadvantage. In SC2 if you destroy his forward pylon he has lost almost nothing. | ||
|
Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On January 25 2011 21:05 Euronyme wrote: Neither. All you would see is 1 basing as expanding would be virtually impossible. There was a maphack thread in the BW forums, specifically relating to zvz, where the guy said that he played someone and both of them used maphacks. They had something like 6 hatcheries/bases each before they put down a spawning pool, because they could see what their opponent was doing. In zvz at least you would get more expansions. As it is, a lot of people on Scrap, Metal and LT close air have the overlord sitting over their opponents base before it's pool time, and they can respond to what the opponent does (oh he got a pool -> I'll get another drone then get my pool) in order to get an advantage early on. | ||
|
snafulator
Antigua/Barbuda72 Posts
4 gate still works vs all races? | ||
|
arterian
Canada1157 Posts
On January 25 2011 21:48 snafulator wrote: so 3 gate rush 4 gate still works vs all races? proxy gate works better vs terran | ||
|
Icx
Belgium853 Posts
On January 25 2011 21:48 snafulator wrote: so 3 gate rush 4 gate still works vs all races? My TvP games are 60% of the time 4gate/3gate robo allins, so obviously people are still winning with it else they wouldn't be doing it. 3gate robo is more of a PvT thing because of the robo and how immortals just eat bunkers/marauders I guess ZvP is much more normal 4 gates. And DT's are actually a big thing ladder these days, I would say 1/10 games the P goes DT's, but just in such a way that he is basicly hoping for the DT's to win on their own. (this is mid to high diamond, could be different in master's league) | ||
|
Lochat
United States270 Posts
On January 25 2011 20:07 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Nope, it requires your opponent to make a mistake. Games of chess are rarely won by brilliant moves, even at the highest level, they are won by questionable moves by the opposing party. So what you say is that SC2 would fair better without a fog of war? Ah, so taking an expansion is skillells, as is droning up hard, as is taking a watchtower, as is knowing how to scout, as is knowing how to hide your spire, as is observer placement and supply depot placement, after all, it doesn't win you a game anymore in a maphack-style variant of SC2. As someone with a BA in philosophy with a focus in logic, I'd very much appreciate you to keep the logical fallacies to a minimum, if you want to have a discussion. It's pretty obvious the point of my post was the idea of using an analogy between chess and cheese was absurd, nor did I claim the fog war was inherently bad. It would be bad in chess, it's not bad in SC2, because they are completely different games. Again, they're not analogous. As for your statement about your opponent making a mistake, last I checked, not making a mistake for a very long time happens to be what makes someone good at something. Making mistakes often is what happens to people who are not good at something. Being bad at chess means you make lots of mistakes (though ignorance or bad play, either way), being good means you don't make mistakes -- and exploit the opponents, though one could probably call not exploiting those mistakes a mistake in itself, but then we're down into Inception areas. No one claimed that any of those things were skilless, again, chess and SC2 are not analogous systems, which was the entire point of my initial post. I'm not sure, exactly, why you're utterly ignoring my point to... defend cheese, I guess? I'm not sure why you're attacking straw men. It is, however, the point chess is considered a skill game due to the fact chess is a static system in which both players have the same knowledge and resources. SC2 isn't analogous, but if it was, the closest thing would be that of a long macro game, rather than cheese, still the comparison is pretty much moot, since they're not really similar at all. If you want to attack my fairly undefended statement that cheese is skilless, you're more than welcome to, I admit I didn't back the point out but rather made it an implicit (and explicit, really) statement. However, I'm not sure why you'd defend cheese. Cheese is a tactic with ends or wins the game with little time and minimal effort. It takes the vast majority of strategy out of a strategy game, unless you consider "scouting" the epitome of strategy (it's important, however I don't think I want to play a RTScouting game.) While the term is abused quite a bit, cheese is not only bad because it allows bad players to win (which is probably a hint it requires significantly less skill, I think there was a post about a bronze league guy going to platinum on the front page -- or was by only proxy-gate cheesing non-stop) due to a comparatively minor lack of skill (not scouting their entire base at the right time) compared to an overwhelming lack of competence by the cheeser, but... It. Removes. The. Fun. From. A. Video. Game. From my perspective, and I'm sure many others, I'd wager the majority of SC2 players, though I have no data for that. I can see cheese as being used to win in a tourney and being effective, and in pro players cheese is in fact less cheesy, oddly enough, because it doesn't inherently put the worse of the two players at a comparative advantage -- though it still may. Doing it on the ladder, however, as far as I'm concerned, bad for the game. Doing something like that in a game, to get arbitrary points that serve no real reward... is... I just can't comprehend why someone would do that on a regular basis on a game you're supposed to be playing for fun. Maybe it's simply something I can't relate to and the problem is with me, but I can't see why people would play a video game, for fun, then cheese for no rewards. Also, wow that's a long post. | ||
|
Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
On January 25 2011 21:56 Icx wrote: My TvP games are 60% of the time 4gate/3gate robo allins, so obviously people are still winning with it else they wouldn't be doing it. 3gate robo is more of a PvT thing because of the robo and how immortals just eat bunkers/marauders I guess ZvP is much more normal 4 gates. And DT's are actually a big thing ladder these days, I would say 1/10 games the P goes DT's, but just in such a way that he is basicly hoping for the DT's to win on their own. (this is mid to high diamond, could be different in master's league) I'd rather see DTs than banshees any day. Both are potentially game ending, but going DTs at least puts you substantially behind, while getting banshees is just a unit on a Ts normal tech route. At worst he wasted 200/200 on cloak, and maybe the 50/25 on the tech lab, but 99% of Ts get a starport anyways, and banshees are great units even without cloak. | ||
|
Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On January 25 2011 21:41 MockHamill wrote: Yes the problem is that most Protoss cheese is so very easy to execute, yet powerful and with very little drawback if it does not work. If a Protoss player manages to go pylon->Gateway in a Terran players base he will win the game. But if the Terran players notices and attacks the pylon before the gateway is finished he can just cancel the Gateway without having lost anything. Same thing if he goes chronobosted early zealots on a small map, he attacks you just as get your first marine out, you must micro like hell to not lose the game right there while Protoss can just A-move into your base. And if his attack does not work he is still on even grounds + have scouting information on your base. Also warpgates are also a kind of cheese since it negates the defenders advantage completely. In Age of Empires if you wanted to get units to the front faster you needed a forward base and if you lost that forward base you had a real disadvantage. In SC2 if you destroy his forward pylon he has lost almost nothing. I dunno.. I've seen plenty of pro games where a proxy gate has lead to defeat. You make it sound like it's some kind of wonder build. Also it's pretty standard to scout your own base.. | ||
|
Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
On January 25 2011 21:05 Euronyme wrote: Neither. All you would see is 1 basing as expanding would be virtually impossible. In ZvZ you would only see expanding. The first one building units falls behind in macro and looses. | ||
|
Obsolescence
United States270 Posts
On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote: I'm not really sure how the underlined builds count as cheese. It seems like you really stretched the meaning of 'cheese' in order to create this discussion with a cute title. I'm surprised you were able to get to Master's using only these builds, but just because these builds are a bit gimmicky doesn't make them cheese. I find it perplexing that you apparently have the skills to get into Master's but your definition of cheese reminds me of Bronze league players. Kudos regardless.vs Zerg : -pylon wall in + cannon -4 gate blink stalkers -Dts -5 gate vs Terran : -7pylon 8gate proxy -Dts vs Protoss: -modified 4WG korea into Dts -cannon rush -Proxy void rays -proxy 2 gate | ||
|
Poopi
France13023 Posts
Masters soon o/, thx to the easy strong race. | ||
|
Geiko
France2049 Posts
On January 25 2011 22:50 Obsolescence wrote: I'm not really sure how the underlined builds count as cheese. It seems like you really stretched the meaning of 'cheese' in order to create this discussion with a cute title. I'm surprised you were able to get to Master's using only these builds, but just because these builds are a bit gimmicky doesn't make them cheese. I find it perplexing that you apparently have the skills to get into Master's but your definition of cheese reminds me of Bronze league players. Kudos regardless. Already answered to this. Cheese = a strategy that if scouted will produce no tangible results and put you behind. If my opponent has scouted DTs, i'm pretty sure that rushing in his base with 7-8 DTs is going to fail miserably. If my opponent scouts my hidden 3 gates (making 5 total), and i try to push anyway, i'll have a fun time watching my gateway units die to 5 spine crawlers. Same thing for 4 gate blink stalkers. Most smart people would not procede to massing DTs, or blink stalkers, or army out of 5 gate once scouted and try to transition into something else. That doesn't mean the initial plan was not cheesy. I can place a proxy pylon in my opponent's base and hope he won't see it and too bad if he does. The ability to transition doesn't take away the cheesiness. | ||
| ||
