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TheRealzz
150 Posts
On January 24 2011 20:54 Mercury- wrote: Most of that isn't even cheese, Toss is just kinda OP. User was warned for this post Lol yeah the admin warned me for making a comment about why toss shouldn't go Collosi tech tree... Must be a Toss Lover O_o bahahaha | ||
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Lochat
United States270 Posts
Erm, sorry, that's not even an analogy, much less an argument from analogy. Unfortunately, the idea of analogies are as abused and twisted on the internet as much as the idea of irony. Chess and SC2 are near impossible to make actual arguments from analogy with, because they're not even close to analogous systems. Chess relies on full knowledge of your opponent's current status and where and what all his pieces can do, at all times. SC2, and cheese in particular, relies on the *exact opposite* which is why it's generally considered -- with good reason -- to be skilless, where chess is considered a game of skill. A game of chess, to beat you opponent, requires both of you to have all knowledge of the playboard, and beat him with proper use of your 'units' if you will. SC2 cheese requires the exact opposite, it requires you not to be seen and for a quick win in which the opponent cannot react to, due to a lack of knowledge of where the units are. This is fundamentally the opposite of why chess is a game of skill. Chess is a game of skill because both players have the same knowledge and use tactical choices to beat the other player's movements. If both players had full vision of each other, map-hack style, then perhaps the statement would be closer to an analogy, but then you have to ask yourself -- if both players could see exactly what the other player was doing, would cheese ever win a game? And that, is why it is skilless, and why chess is not, and why you cannot use the two in a real analogy, much less one defending cheese. | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
 j/k (before some nerd gets all serious) | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
On January 25 2011 14:26 W2 wrote: the analogy for chess would be sneaking two moves at once and checkmating him while he isn't looking. hahaha since cheese relies on the opponent not scouting j/k (before some nerd gets all serious) besides the fact that double-moving in chess while your opponent isnt looking is against the rules and cheese in SC2 isnt, thats actually a pretty apt analogy, I like it. | ||
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Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On January 25 2011 14:16 TheRealzz wrote: Lol yeah the admin warned me for making a comment about why toss shouldn't go Collosi tech tree... Must be a Toss Lover O_o bahahaha Saying that protoss is OP on TL without even debating why isn't a very good idea. The game is very balanced. Z imho has somewhat higher risk/reward, but that's just how it is. Cheese can get you into any league, but it won't make you a better player, as you basically rely on you opponent not knowing how to hold it off, rather than your own skill. That's my view on it atleast. | ||
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georgir
Bulgaria253 Posts
And near the top of the ladders, people eventually get to know each other. | ||
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albis
United States652 Posts
7rr? 6pool? any more? | ||
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Pestilence
Belgium41 Posts
On January 25 2011 18:30 albis wrote: what zerg cheeses are there? 7rr? 6pool? any more? Zerg mass mutalisk macro style :p | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On January 25 2011 18:30 albis wrote: what zerg cheeses are there? 7rr? 6pool? any more? Baneling bust all in. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On January 25 2011 18:30 albis wrote: what zerg cheeses are there? 7rr? 6pool? any more? 1 base ultras. i have seen it in team games.. | ||
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iNdo-Man
United States191 Posts
On January 24 2011 22:40 Offhand wrote: And, for the record, being in the top 2% of a million person playerbase isn't even marginally impressive. i most definitely disagree. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
I'm starting to wonder if this represents a huge flaw in game design. Cheese isn't necessarily detrimental to a game but it's open for discussion when you can get that kind of success with it. | ||
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Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
On January 25 2011 10:31 DoubleReed wrote: So the GSL is full of bad players I read from this?The problem is simply you won't improve. Against players who fend off the cheese you are completely helpless. It's not that cheese can't net you wins. It's that it's just a flimsy strategy that will lose to competent players. If you cheese and the opponent loses, then that's because the opponent screwed up. Not because you're good at the game. I mean look at IdrA and Jinro: + Show Spoiler + ffs, IdrA lost because Jinro accidentally canceled his marine. That's a flimsy strategy, and exactly why IdrA doesn't rely on cheese. It's flimsy. Also, you could just as well say that if you macro all the time, you will lose against players that outmacro you but can't hold of a 6pool. Being able to hold of a 6pool is part of the game. IdrA's play is also usually really one-dimensional, he's really good at making drones, a really useful skill toi have. On the other side are players like HayprO and Morrow, who lose a lot because they made too many drones, is their macro 'good' then, any person can just make drones when they should be making attacking units? If anything, they take a risk and hope the other person doesn't attack. On January 25 2011 14:21 Lochat wrote: Nope, it requires your opponent to make a mistake. Games of chess are rarely won by brilliant moves, even at the highest level, they are won by questionable moves by the opposing party.A game of chess, to beat you opponent, requires both of you to have all knowledge of the playboard, and beat him with proper use of your 'units' if you will. SC2 cheese requires the exact opposite, it requires you not to be seen and for a quick win in which the opponent cannot react to, due to a lack of knowledge of where the units are. This is fundamentally the opposite of why chess is a game of skill. Chess is a game of skill because both players have the same knowledge and use tactical choices to beat the other player's movements. So what you say is that SC2 would fair better without a fog of war?If both players had full vision of each other, map-hack style, then perhaps the statement would be closer to an analogy, but then you have to ask yourself -- if both players could see exactly what the other player was doing, would cheese ever win a game? Would taking an expansion ever win the game then?And that, is why it is skilless, and why chess is not, and why you cannot use the two in a real analogy, much less one defending cheese. Ah, so taking an expansion is skillells, as is droning up hard, as is taking a watchtower, as is knowing how to scout, as is knowing how to hide your spire, as is observer placement and supply depot placement, after all, it doesn't win you a game anymore in a maphack-style variant of SC2. | ||
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blotrees
United States24 Posts
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Poopi
France13023 Posts
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Scrimpton
United Kingdom465 Posts
On January 25 2011 20:33 Poopi wrote: Funny thing is that anyone in diamond/masters who doesn't even play toss as his main race can probably create an account and become master with protoss all in/cheeses. I did it with a spare account, I main Z at the time with no P experience at all. Diamond in 40 or so games using proxy 2gate vs all races, masters league took 30 games after the patch, using a mix of proxy 2gate and 4gate vs all races. The funny thing is, all the protoss on my friend list in masters/diamond, when i check their match history, all the games are like 7-8 mins, usually 4gates.. They get very very defensive when you ask them about it.. they "swear to god" that they only 4gate 5-10% of their games, when in reality its like 80% of their wins It does feel like the race is holding up these players compared to T/Z. | ||
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tchan
Australia121 Posts
On January 25 2011 18:30 albis wrote: what zerg cheeses are there? 7rr? 6pool? any more? 7 pool 8 pool 9 pool 10 pool 11 pool proxy hatch... | ||
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
On January 25 2011 20:40 tchan wrote: 7 pool 8 pool 9 pool 10 pool 11 pool proxy hatch... I disagree, that 11 pool is cheese. It may not be as economic as other oppenings, but I wouldn't say that it is really cheese. | ||
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EPT
