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So i often hear diamond and master players tell bronze people how bad it is to cheese and how it won't get them to improve their game.
They usualy tell them they need to improve their macro beacuse eventualy, people will learn to counter cheese.
So i decided to ladder up an account using ONLY protoss cheese (lord knows protoss have the best of the best in terms of cheese). I was in master after 60 or so games with 40-20 ish stats.
This is a guide on cheesing your way up to master.
vs Zerg :
-pylon wall in + cannon
-4 gate blink stalkers
-Dts
-5 gate
vs Terran :
-7pylon 8gate proxy
-Dts
vs Protoss
-modified 4WG korea into Dts
-cannon rush
-Proxy void rays
-proxy 2 gate
These are the only strats i have been using. However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese. My last game which placed me in master went like this : failed cannon rush into scouted darkshrine into raping his base with proxy void rays.
Well, anyways, what are your thoughts on cheesing ? Is there really a skill cap or could you potentialy compete at the highest level using massive amounts of cheese (ActionJesuz ?)
edit : when i say Dts, i don't mean containing your opponent with one or 2 Dts to expand safely, i mean getting 7-8 Dts to snipe both his CC/nexus/hatch
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build order for each tactic pls.
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4 gate blink stalkers isnt cheese?
dts isnt cheese either?
and no cheese-only builds dont work at the top like they do at ladder.
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You still suck at the game if you only know how to cheese imo. I reckon the real skill is in multitasking, and the longer the game, the more multitasking.
And I, for one, find the longer macro games to be more fun than quick cheese games.. but I'm sure there are some who love the feeling of making someone ragequit, or just like cheesing in general.
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cheese play will after some time lose its efficienty, when it is well known.
so as you yourself remark, you will have to keep up with creative cheeses to keep your ratio.
but in the end all of this will be sortet out as players will get better, as cheese relies on your opponents inability to adapt.
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i watched actionjesuz last night but erm, naw i think people are not scouting effective enough to prepare correctley for cheese saying that
i have no ffin idea what the correct reaction to cheese is.
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well the problem of cheese is what happens when you have to play against people who actually know a bit about you, for example in a cup, especially bo3,5,7. if you are in that situation (and its inevitable if you really want to play on top level) and you cant play anything but cheese, you're basically done.
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4gate blink
dts
5gate
are not really considered as cheese.
if you're very good at cheesing you can get into masters with it. i don't doubt that. but you will never win a tourney with it against the same players because after the first game they will activly look around and easily deny it.
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On January 24 2011 20:31 snafulator wrote:
build order for each tactic pls.
I don'really have BOs for y cheeses, i just do what feels right.
4 gate blink stalkers you can check out those nazgul vs idra games
Pylon wall in is like 13 forge 15 triple pylon
Modified 4WG korea into DTs is just like a 4 WG korea except you don't pull guys off gaz, get a twiglight council, warp in 4 zealots, then get second gaz and prepare for dts
Proxy void rays : just proxy 2 stargates 
Dts, i wait until 7 or 8 before attacking
I usualy stop probe production after a little less than a control group of probes.
For people saying i don't know how to play, on my official account i always play long macro games (excpet when i'm on tilt and need free wins to boost my confidence ). But i find that cheesing alows me to play a couple hundred points over my skill level. Are some people just more cheese oriented players ? Like Boxer is more micro oriented, Nada more macro oriented, is it possible that cheesy style suits some people better ? (bitbzbitPrime ?) And if so, should we really blame them for playing to their advantages ?
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Me n my bro share an NA account and we got into Masters in around 60games (maybe less) without much cheese.
A 4gate here or there.
So it is possible, just need to know how to react to cheese and macro.
[edit] I dont know how many games it took us to get into diamond but when the patch got out, it required us 1 game to get into masters.
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On January 24 2011 20:38 TehForce wrote:
4gate blink
dts
5gate
are not really considered as cheese.
if you're very good at cheesing you can get into masters with it. i don't doubt that. but you will never win a tourney with it against the same players because after the first game they will activly look around and easily deny it.
Dts i said was the cheesy version with mass unscouted Dts
Also, 1base 5gate is definitly cheese.
4 gate blink stalkers i have never seen anyone transition into anything else once it failed so i would say it falls under the category cheese/all in/whatever.
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Double post sorry
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On January 24 2011 20:32 Xism wrote:
You still suck at the game if you only know how to cheese imo. I reckon the real skill is in multitasking, and the longer the game, the more multitasking.
And I, for one, find the longer macro games to be more fun than quick cheese games.. but I'm sure there are some who love the feeling of making someone ragequit, or just like cheesing in general.
Not the point OP was trying to make.
What he is saying is, "Bullshit to all of those posters who keep saying that the higher up you get, the generally better players are about cheese." There's just as a much, if not more, cheese in Masters than there is in bronze.
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Most of that isn't even cheese, Toss is just kinda OP.
User was warned for this post
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I think that 60% of my vs Protoss are some sort of cheese or all in/ semi all in. It is a very cheese friendly race and a ton of players got to diamond/masters doing just that. Maybe they have to many good options of all ining?
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Lulz im a T so when i cheese i proxy rax get 5 marines and bring all workers
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theese builds are pretty funny....but no cheese...just simple 1-base (all-in) builds, i dont like em too much cause u dont exp(or do you) and it fails hard when it gets scouted....
if u consider blink stalker/ 5-gate chesse, then u must say a terran 1 base marine/raven/tank/whatever push is cheese too...just timing and hitting ur opponent off-guard
fun on ladder...but hard to pull out in tourneys...as u have a build order history...good to throw in in a bo5 or so to confuse/surprise ur opponent
edit: oh yeah and its better to learn macro first...cause its better to learn to play the game first and then abuse it then the other way around...
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On January 24 2011 20:53 TALegion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 20:32 Xism wrote:
You still suck at the game if you only know how to cheese imo. I reckon the real skill is in multitasking, and the longer the game, the more multitasking.
And I, for one, find the longer macro games to be more fun than quick cheese games.. but I'm sure there are some who love the feeling of making someone ragequit, or just like cheesing in general. Not the point OP was trying to make. What he is saying is, "Bullshit to all of those posters who keep saying that the higher up you get, the generally better players are about cheese." There's just as a much, if not more, cheese in Masters than there is in bronze.
No it is not. He said that in diamond cheese is more likely to be deflected so you should transition into some other kind of cheese to have a chance to succeed.
At no point did he mention there is more cheese in Master than in bronze
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I think PIQLIQ is a shining example of how a player can use cheese for almost a majority of his/her games and still end up being extremely high on the ladder, even though their marco skills and game sense, or whatever qualities you attribute to "normal game-play", are bad. I'm not trying to say I'm personally great at sc2 or anything, the point is just that it's better to play macro games but on ladder it seems like just cheesing actually can get you to the top, at least in terms of points gained.
Geiko, having cheese builds to throw into the mix is always a good idea especially if you're playing a tournament-style bo5 or something. It's always good to have the element of surprise on your side. That being said, I really hate your example of BitByBitprime. He's a horrible player that can only cheese; the BoxeR vs NaDa comparison was a far more relevant example.
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I want to laud Geiko for this effort, and likewise scorn people who say stupid things like "If you cheese you have no real skill" and that any kind of DTs are cheese or that 4 gate is cheese. The term Cheese was originally meant to mean some tricky use in early game to defeat an opponent who didn't scout it correctly, such as 6 pool, cannon rush, proxy gateway (barracks) and such.
To say that you can't cheese at the top is rediculous. The Koreans do it all the time. Progamers do it all the time.
The thing about cheese is that it's a risk shot. If it works, great, if it doesn't, it almost ALWAYS puts the cheeser in a severe economic disadvantage to his opponent.
Believe me, there's nothing I hate more than missing a proxy pylon that turns into 3 stalkers and a zealot at my ramp (or worse in my base if I really was bad at scouting) when I've barely my first couple marines out. But it's part of the game. Stop complaining about it and dismissing those who use it as having no skill. As with anything, those that rely ONLY on cheese will never stay at the top. However, those that use it as part of their playbook to mix it up and keep their opponents guessing are great players.
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EPT
