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On January 24 2011 20:33 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
i watched actionjesuz last night but erm, naw i think people are not scouting effective enough to prepare correctley for cheese saying that
i have no ffin idea what the correct reaction to cheese is.
I was in them games :D Wish that 6pool worked ^.^
Cheese is strong in all levels, very underrated tbh. And it's gone out of fashion lately, should come back 
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Great job! And those comments saying you will not be able to win tourneys with cheeses are just lol
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On January 24 2011 22:48 Cheerio wrote:
Great job! And those comments saying you will not be able to win tourneys with cheeses are just lol
Who wins tourneys purely with cheese?
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I'll be honest guys, most of you are hypocrites. When someone wins a game serie in the GSL with 5 gates or blink stalkers, actually with anything that's not a fucking 1 hour macrofest, you guys all yell cheese. But when the guy proves you that all you've been saying about cheese not working at higher level of play is actually wrong, well it's not cheese anymore, Haha. C'mon guys, you have to get a definition of cheese and stick with it.
Edit: typo
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On January 24 2011 22:48 Cheerio wrote:
Great job! And those comments saying you will not be able to win tourneys with cheeses are just lol You are just lol.
User was warned for this post
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You can win games on battlenet with cheese and get to rank1 masters, doesn't mean you're good at the game as a whole does it. It means you're good at one small part, which loses when people learn how to better stop it. Also vs the same people it will work less and less.
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TBF, at this point saying that a predominantly cheese player is worse then a macro player when they have similar win % against each other is wrong. After all, what makes a good macro player good is not only "macro skills" but also the ability to stop cheese. If you are not very good at scouting and defending cheese then, what are you doing macroing in the first place. The elephant in the room and all that.
If i were to give a complete noob some advice it would be to learn how to cheese and how to stop cheese. Only then can you "safely" learn to play macro games.
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well, if your cheese has that many transitions ( you can transition from proxy gate to dts to vr) then its no longer cheese per se. That's an ownage build order. You force them to make a lot of zealots and gates and try to catch them offguard with dts, after which they will make robo which will lose to VR/stargate tech.
I understand your point but you are probably masters standard anyway without the cheese.
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Complaining about cheese itself as a "not very good" tactic is a little bit like saying "yeah, but that doesn't count as I've still got most of my pieces" to an early loss in chess.
Fact is, cheese (or even just one base plays) are clearly very, very deliberately included aspects of the game, and the game only records "win" or "loss", so a win with less than Marquis of Queensbury tactics is still a win.
Or, to put it another way, if you don't like that sort of thing (which I also don't) there's no point in criticising the cheesing player. After all, they're doing it just as "right" as you are. No, the object of the criticism should be the game design, as that's what's caused it in the first place.
In a way, complaining about cheesers is a bit like blaming the banks for the banking crisis - they're only doing what the system at the time told them to do, and those who could stop it decided not to because, well, they didn't perceive doing so to be in their own best interests.
tl;dr Where in the rules does it say you can't six pool?
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On January 24 2011 23:42 dtz wrote:
well, if your cheese has that many transitions ( you can transition from proxy gate to dts to vr) then its no longer cheese per se. That's an ownage build order. You force them to make a lot of zealots and gates and try to catch them offguard with dts, after which they will make robo which will lose to VR/stargate tech.
I understand your point but you are probably masters standard anyway without the cheese.
^this
(if you're not masters, please correct us)
The point of telling bronze-gold players to learn macro instead of cheese is that by picking macro (over some other aspect) gives them the best chance to learn and improve at one aspect of the game. (I don't think it matters if some people think macro is the main aspect of the game or whatever.) If a player is going to be slowly learning macro it would be that much worse from them to try to start learning cheese (only). OP being already a high level player (assumed master league) means he was able to transition out of failed cheese (or 'cheese forces') into another "cheese" (imo transition from one cheese to something else that would be considered cheese cancels the cheesiness). I'm also betting the OP had a pretty decent APM (unspammed) and better micro than many of his opponents. Basically, a better player with master league MMR regardless of strategy. What I would find very interesting is how far the cheese only account could get compared to the main account for the same player...
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On January 24 2011 20:32 sekritzzz wrote:
4 gate blink stalkers isnt cheese?
dts isnt cheese either?
and no cheese-only builds dont work at the top like they do at ladder.
I agree completly here.
Stalkers with Blink? LOL oh the cheese, nearly as bad as getting that OP range upgrade for collisis....
I really really think you need to check out what the meaning of the word cheese means.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Cheese
See that first line ...
"Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies on large parts on secrecy and/or psychological impact on the opponent. "
Everytime I ever play against Protoss i think , mmmh he's prob gonna 4 gate or cannon rush me.
Infact im pretty sure the majority of non pro players think this.
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Probably one of the most entertaining line Ive read on these forums:
However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese.
I personally got into diamond doing nothing but 3 rax push, and left immidiately if my first push didnt win :D
However, I had to diversify my tactics later on.
So: Can you share your replays?
Im really interested in how you executed those cheezes.
You can just .rar them and upload somewhere.
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I'd like to see someone get to masters as zerg with cheese/all ins only.
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I'd like to see someone get to masters as zerg with cheese/all ins only
Why are you saying it like it's plural? They have one cheese, unless you count 8 pool/6 pool to be different cheeses!
Well, okay, that's not true, but still, I don't think it could happen. Zerg cheeses are kind of easy to predict, whereas protoss have so many different ones that it's hard to go into a game knowing what kind of cheese he can do before you even send a scout out.
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Ridiculously stupid thread. You are a player good enough for Master League, you said it yourself. How the hell does it matter that you can also get there using 1 base play (check what cheese is) exclusiviely? No one says it's weak, you haven't discovered anything.
Also ladder is the only place where you could DT rush every single game and still collect lots of wins, try doing the same thing in tournament circumstances where you are faced against the same player several times...
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Being good and then cheesing is not the same as getting good by cheesing.
By demonstrating that an already solid player can make cheeses work to master level, you only showed just that.
However I'll still argue that a "novice" player, should try the other aspects of the game to really get good at it.
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On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote:
However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese.
Cheese into... MORE cheese? Jesus Christ, how much cheese do you want in one game? o_o
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On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote:
These are the only strats i have been using. However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese. My last game which placed me in master went like this : failed cannon rush into scouted darkshrine into raping his base with proxy void rays.
That sounds fun!
Do you have a replay?
On topic though: cheesing is posible at every level of play but its risky. I personaly dont cheese (unless im frustrated with a loosing streak) but if you like it than go ahead and do it
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On January 25 2011 00:52 Tatari wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote:
However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese. Cheese into... MORE cheese? Jesus Christ, how much cheese do you want in one game? o_o
Actually its really not that nonsensical. When you cheese and fail you are far behind. So really you have better chances if you make another high-risk play. That's basically the downside to cheesing.
Although the blink stalker all-in can be very difficult to beat even if you do scout it. It also works against zerg. You just use the blink to get into positions that make surrounding impossible. Though really it's not cheese/all-in unless you just don't expand off of it.
It's just up to you whether or not you want to make it an all-in with dumb gameplay sense (same with dts)...
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EPT
