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Poopi
France13023 Posts
" For people saying i don't know how to play, on my official account i always play long macro games (excpet when i'm on tilt and need free wins to boost my confidence )" Macro games with protoss are not free wins? What's the game you are playing?  ."Protoss c'est fort" ^^. | ||
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insaneMicro
Germany761 Posts
Take 2rax scv- allin for example, when it first came out many thought it broke starcraft and Artosis said on stream that he considered unbeatable. Fast forward a few months, it's merely a strong early game cheese, but is hold off pretty easily if scouted. | ||
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Adrenalin
46 Posts
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Geiko
France2049 Posts
On January 24 2011 21:27 Jakalo wrote: No it is not. He said that in diamond cheese is more likely to be deflected so you should transition into some other kind of cheese to have a chance to succeed. At no point did he mention there is more cheese in Master than in bronze I wasn't really trying to make a point about how much cheese you see in bronze or master league, i was trying to point out that, in my opinion, cheese is just another one of those playstyle that works at every skill level, you just have to work on it more and refine your cheese. Master players are by far not immune to cheese as many people want bronze players to beleive. People saying cheese doesn't work in master are just wrong, and people saying you shouldn't practise some cheese are equaly wrong. Also, there is no right way to learn to play the game. I started off starcraft doing only one base all in builds and got pretty high to diamond. Then i felt like i hit some sort of skill cap and started learning macro style. But i learned A LOT from my my first cheesy period such as micro, timings, general game sens etc... | ||
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Oishiiii
France4 Posts
Early game, he sent one of his 6 probes in my base. Put 1 Pylo and 2 gates. Even if i see it, i can't do anything. He's first zealot come before my first rines. He kill some SCV while more zealots are coming... i'm getting far behind... if not dead. How can a Terran deal with that ? I can't go to an island (if there is one) and try to come back... the guy will chronoboost probe and make Voids. | ||
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olmaster
Netherlands11 Posts
On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote: Well, anyways, what are your thoughts on cheesing ? Is there really a skill cap or could you potentialy compete at the highest level using massive amounts of cheese (ActionJesuz ?) Why is cheese or no cheese that important?? If you micro your cheese really good or your BO is a winner what does it matter? You're probably doing something right, right...who's to say it's cheese when builds with tier2 like dts are allready cheesetactics? Then everything will be cheese eventually (no prb for me btw, I'm from holland anyways...so cheese is my middlename;-) Even cheese requires a decent player as mensioned earlier. Use whatever tactic that makes you win. If you can only win with cheese is another subject.. So "To cheese or not to cheese is the question". | ||
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S.O.L.I.D.
United States792 Posts
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Geiko
France2049 Posts
On January 24 2011 21:53 S.O.L.I.D. wrote: Yeah, you can get to Master's doing cheese, but you don't actually improve, you only improve your cheeses. You tell lower level players that cheese is bad so that they can actually improve at the game. Why is improving your ability to cheese not improving your ability to pay the game as a whole ? I could tell all the macro players out there : "sure you improve your macro, but you don't have any cheese builds so good players will just use greedy openings agaisnt you and you'll lose" | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Blizzard has been reigning in some of the worst offenders with the last few patches, but back in beta that shit was retarded. Anyway, after getting cheesed all day vs any race and people trying to justify it with "Zerg is OP late game" which we know to be much less true these days... I gave up and joined the club. Early aggression is HUGE in SC2... like... it's too good... I can spine crawler rush another zerg, cancel the spine and only kill like 6-8 drones and the game is basically even... my cheese utterly fails and we're even... I can 7 pool a protoss player and lose all my lings and not kill a single probe in the process... as long as I force a forge and 2 cannons, I will be able to expand and hold off his 4-gate. Terran is still immune to cheese though =/ Being a cheeser or highly aggressive or whatever you want to call it has given me a different set of skills. My macro is still pretty good because hey, that's what I really want to do anyway, but now that I'm trying to make 8 lings win me the game (or at least put me ahead), I know exactly how many probes and 1 zealot those 8 lings can take on. I know all those perfect little choke points in the mineral line that will fuck up drone AI if I put a spine crawler there. My micro has gotten so much better than it used to be. In the end, I would say there is a lower skill cap on cheese than there is on macro play, but that skill cap is way above Master level. | ||
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Noxie
United States2227 Posts
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RabidSeagull
United States220 Posts
On January 24 2011 21:44 Oishiiii wrote: Hi, i'm Terran and I got cheesed by a Protoss. Early game, he sent one of his 6 probes in my base. Put 1 Pylo and 2 gates. Even if i see it, i can't do anything. He's first zealot come before my first rines. He kill some SCV while more zealots are coming... i'm getting far behind... if not dead. What? You scouted proxy 2gate in your base and couldn't stop it? When did you see the gates, right away? Are you trolling? Send 4 scvs to kill the pylon if your that worried, make a bunker near ur min line to put a few marines in it, delay your gas a bit and you have a free win. | ||
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Poopi
France13023 Posts
On January 24 2011 21:57 Geiko wrote: Why is improving your ability to cheese not improving your ability to pay the game as a whole ? I could tell all the macro players out there : "sure you improve your macro, but you don't have any cheese builds so good players will just use greedy openings agaisnt you and you'll lose" And I tell you, learn 2 cheese is far far (I mean FAR :D) easier than learn to play the game "standart", so ppl who didn't know how to cheese but are decent with standart games can learn super fast how to cheese to mix their play, but "cheeses only players" just can't learn that fast how to play the game. | ||
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Autunno
Brazil147 Posts
Maybe in the future players will be more cheese proof (when the game sense / scouting improve), but right now even the safest player may get cheesed and lose. | ||
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Oishiiii
France4 Posts
I couldn't attack the Pylo, positioned behind the gates. :/ I of course made a bunker but too late i guess... | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On January 24 2011 21:44 Oishiiii wrote: Hi, i'm Terran and I got cheesed by a Protoss. Early game, he sent one of his 6 probes in my base. Put 1 Pylo and 2 gates. Even if i see it, i can't do anything. He's first zealot come before my first rines. He kill some SCV while more zealots are coming... i'm getting far behind... if not dead. How can a Terran deal with that ? I can't go to an island (if there is one) and try to come back... the guy will chronoboost probe and make Voids. You pull workers, pin his forward probe, and knock out the pylon to win. If it's too late for that you didn't scout in time. Any cheese is answerable fairly easily if you scout/react in time. I guess cheese has been extended to one base all-ins now according to the OP. That and DTs which take like 8 freaking minutes to "rush" out. Now I'm definitely a mcaro player but if you can't hold a one base, or stop a cheese, you don't have any right to complain about the length of the game, you're simply bad and need to improve. And being bad is the reason people complain about cheese. Imagine micro players complaining about how OP three basing is. | ||
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Mowr
Sweden791 Posts
On January 24 2011 22:07 Oishiiii wrote: I saw the gates when the 2 gates was at 50% completed. I was not expecting that on Scrap Station. I couldn't attack the Pylo, positioned behind the gates. :/ I of course made a bunker but too late i guess... Well if you found them at 50% then that is the problem, you should always scout in and around your base vs protoss. You know there will be a probe coming, you must keep track of it. | ||
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traca
146 Posts
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On January 24 2011 22:37 traca wrote: your point seems to be it s easy to cheese your way into masters league, well it s even easier to get into masters with standart solid build And, for the record, being in the top 2% of a million person playerbase isn't even marginally impressive. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
Oh? Zerg cheeses are stopped by simply placing your buildings in a different place using the exact same build? Well that stinks. Bitterness aside, I don't mind cheesers as much. I get redhot from seeing 4gates into ( insert 1base strat that he uses because 4gate failed here ). But he sacrificed all his economy to do a proxy 2gate, or a 7 pool. Its in my ballpark to stop it, not theirs to execute it perfectly. I dislike using strategies that only work on people that don't know how to counter it, but to each his own. | ||
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Oishiiii
France4 Posts
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EPT
