[D] "Master on cheese only" tested by geiko - Page 10

On January 30 2011 09:19 Pandain wrote:
If you're talking about pure cheese, it will be very hard to get to masters on pure cheese alone. I'm assuming your talking about cheese and not all in/semi all in's.

As you get up to masters, players get far better at scouting/knowing how to "read" a build order. For example, while you can get up to masters on 4 gates(unfortunately), I doubt someone could dt rush every game and get to top masters. '

Of course, really its the top masters, probably top 2%, that cheese, that pure cheese alone can't work.

So by your "cheeses":
-pylon wall in + cannon Already known to be a great strat, your not showing anything here. Plus its been patched. Finally its not cheese because even if scouted you can't stop it. You have to stop it then and there.
-4 gate blink stalkers Not really so much a "cheese" as this would be an all in. And everyone knows that you can get to masters through pure 4 gates (unfortunately.)
-Dts
-5 gate See above(4 gate)

vs Terran :
-7pylon 8gate proxy-Okay, its cheese, but are you sure terrans are losing to this? I doubt you would win many games just on this higher up.
-Dts

vs Protoss
-modified 4WG korea into Dts
-cannon rush
-Proxy void rays
-proxy 2 gate
Yeah PvP is cheese fest, in fact playing standard is far harder. While technically if you play a matchup that's full of cheese, you are getting to masters on "cheese" alone, this doesn't raelly count. I will count the last two, but again, I doubt the majority of your wins are from that.

On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote:
These are the only strats i have been using. However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese. My last game which placed me in master went like this : failed cannon rush into scouted darkshrine into raping his base with proxy void rays.

On January 30 2011 22:44 Joseph123 wrote:
so most of the strategies you use are all-ins not cheeses
and if u have the skill required for master league u can get there whatever strategy you use

On January 30 2011 19:20 Geiko wrote:


I really have no clue how you guys define what is cheese and what is not cheese :D
But for me 4WG korea is definatly cheese as is cannon rushing :D
Hiding 3 WG somewhere accross the map so the zerg player doesn't scout the 5 WG is also pretty cheesy.

As for winning against terran with 7pylon 8gate, you'd be surprised :D
Well actualy it never wins the game but a majority of the time i end up with a 5 to 10 worker advantage after the rush.

On January 30 2011 22:56 Lochat wrote:


The difference between cheese and a one-base all-in is a bit like the difference between Cheddar and Swiss.

On January 30 2011 22:56 Lochat wrote:


The difference between cheese and a one-base all-in is a bit like the difference between Cheddar and Swiss.

On January 31 2011 01:30 Dreaming11 wrote:
I think the definition of cheese, all-in, and semi all-in are as follows:

Cheese: absolutely depends on not being scouted - you MUST surprise your opponent to win
(e.g. 6 pool, proxy gates / rax, cannon rush, hidden stargate voidray, DT rush)

All-in: an attack (usually a rush) that almost certainly will cost you the game if its a failure / doesnt do significant damage
(e.g. 2 rax + scv, 7 roach rush)

Semi all-in: an attack (usually a rush) that will put you behind economically or in tech if its a failure (e.g. 5 roach rush)

I am not sure whether 4 gate is all-in, despite cutting probes, because if you do some damage / force defences you can always pull back and start macroing up, using your decent army and production capacity to defend. 2 rax pulling SCVs is all-in (though if you do damage, you can use MULEs to crawl your way back into the game).

Also recently I've been thinking about these 'retarded' strategies. I think its the way the game is supposed to be played - on a knife edge and a battle to get to the mid and late game. You only need to watch Idras stream to see that on the Korean ladder it is a huge part of the game and not frowned on at all.

To give an analogy, in European warfare culture in the 18th and 19th century there was a lot of foo-fah about 'decorum' and manners and rules of engagement. It was almost as if war were a gentlemen's sport. Contrast this to the native american indians, who were seen as brave and honorable if they committed 'underhand' attacks such as assassinations, stealing of horses / supplies, etc. Are we not in the same situation here? We see cheese as cheap and not 'sporting' according to our gentlemen's code, but if it wins the game... its surely the effective strategy.

Hate the game, not the players! Cheese is strong and viable to get to the top leagues because that's how Blizzard designed cheese / all-ins. It's not an accident, there are plenty of RTS games where those kind of strats are almost always suicide. I suppose you could make the argument that the rationale is these kind of strats provide a more exciting game, meaning more sales, but I'm not the expert on Blizzard's design choices.

Props to Geiko for doing so well . Personally I think early aggression adds an interesting dynamic to the game in that it causes more 'on the spot' thinking rather than it being build order a vs build order b.