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MERLIN.
Canada546 Posts
even if you are bad a cheese can give you around 50% chance of winning especially if opponent is unprepared. You will play around 2x to 4x as many games as others because your games will end from 5 minute mark to 20 whereas macro games take 20-50 So even losing 1-1 you will play 2x or 4x as much and your bonus pool will skyrocket your ranking up till diamond. | ||
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DestroManiak
257 Posts
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onmach
United States1241 Posts
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On January 25 2011 01:08 onmach wrote: I will say that the upper levels are a bit too lax when it comes to cheesy tactics. Ret advocates a 15 hatch 15 pool. I started doing that, and its great when it works, but even on four player maps, if there's an early pool you're completely screwed. Nonetheless, all of his opponent oblige him by doing the same build. Because cheese rarely works against high level players. They focus on aggressive scouting and watching the minimap way more then you or I. Ret can probably crush most cheeses with a 15 hatch 15 pool. It's not so surprising seeing we had Nestea win a GSL beating a 2 rax marine/scv all-in with a fucking expo up and all. | ||
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MegaPerle
France53 Posts
On January 25 2011 01:05 MERLIN. wrote: Well a few reasons cheesing can get you to the top, even if you are bad a cheese can give you around 50% chance of winning especially if opponent is unprepared. You will play around 2x to 4x as many games as others because your games will end from 5 minute mark to 20 whereas macro games take 20-50 So even losing 1-1 you will play 2x or 4x as much and your bonus pool will skyrocket your ranking up till diamond. Actualy, your points don't play a direct role in your placement. What does is your victories/losses against stronger or weaker players. I was 3rd in my gold division before going to platinum, and somewhere around 13 in platinum just before directly going to 17 Diamond. I was far from being top platinum regarding points. I just had a good winning streak against 2200/2400 Diamond players, not even being 2000 plat myself. | ||
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oN_Silva
197 Posts
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On January 25 2011 01:08 onmach wrote: I will say that the upper levels are a bit too lax when it comes to cheesy tactics. Ret advocates a 15 hatch 15 pool. I started doing that, and its great when it works, but even on four player maps, if there's an early pool you're completely screwed. Nonetheless, all of his opponent oblige him by doing the same build. Idra tends to pool first though. 15 hatching is safe on like cross positions metalopolis and jungle basin. Personally I don't think cheese wins are very funny. I love it when you can actually outplay your opponent, instead of putting the entire game in his hands through letting him either answere correctly, meaning you're basically dead, or lose right there. Then again I'm a protoss player, and I just love getting to for instance high templar / chargelot against terran, as it makes me feel invincible (and honestly very few games are lost once you get to that tech with 3+ bases mining.) Do what you think is fun. It's still a game, and games are meant to have fun with. I would advice trying out playing macro first though, as most players find it way more fun to play. Once you're in one of those epic games, you'll just giggle like a little girl who just robbed a candy store  | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
And all of this is really silly. I highly, highly doubt if you polled masters players (on NA server at least) they would say it is not possible to get into masters w/ cheese + all-ins. In fact, I would say it is quite possible to get into masters simply by 4-gating, you don't even need more than 1 build! But at the end of the day if all you know is to 4-gate, then yes it does hurt you in the long run. And as you do get higher up cheese/all-ins do get less and less effective, that is very evident. But that "skill cap" where it no longer works a good proportion of the time is not at low masters, that's for sure (on NA server at least). | ||
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pureability
United States137 Posts
but then again protoss is so op so thats why he proly won | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
All in = An attack which puts you far behind if you dont win the engagement. Hence Cheese and all in can be the same thing. LIke proxy gating or cannon rushing (given that these are attacks). Though one can make a 2 base all in attack that is not easy countered by the opponent, and is therefore allinish but not cheesy. | ||
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Geiko
France2049 Posts
I don't know at what level you guys are playing, but a scouted 5 gate against zerg or scouted 4 gate blink means that the build WILL fail, and you have to try something else. You are cutting probes so you are behind on economy. All in is a strategy you can't recover from if it fails (not necesseraly cheese). I really feel all the builds mentionned in the OP are cheeses. Anyways, the point of the OP was that there is no correct ways (to learn how) to play. You shouldn't be telling bronze people to macro hard and never cheese, in fact, i believe the best way to learn the game is to use all sorts of cheesy one base plays at the beginning. These are insanely easy to execute at low level meaning you will be facing good players faster and learning more than staying in bronze getting 6pooled/ cannon rushed / etc... every single game. Have you diamond/master ever tried getting in a random custom game against some gold/silver/bronze players ? I do customs to test builds when none of my practise partners are around and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a decent game to learn from. All the games are silly one base pushes with people usualy leaving once it fails. Now imagine a bronze player following "good" advice and trying to macro up only to lose to some cannoning or 6 pooling. | ||
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Triky
Peru99 Posts
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underdawg
United States399 Posts
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Geiko
France2049 Posts
On January 25 2011 00:08 DestroManiak wrote: Probably one of the most entertaining line Ive read on these forums: I personally got into diamond doing nothing but 3 rax push, and left immidiately if my first push didnt win :D However, I had to diversify my tactics later on. So: Can you share your replays? Im really interested in how you executed those cheezes. You can just .rar them and upload somewhere. Haven't been cheesing for a while so i lost all my replays (just found out yesterday there is actualy an option to save all your replays automaticaly now :| ) I'll try to get some to post here when i can Also, to answer someone in this thread (forgot who), i am fairly confident that the MMR on my cheese account is higher than the one on my regular account. Before Master league, i was on average playing 3000 Diamonds with cheese and 2800 diamonds with normal account. Also my cheese account got placed directly in Master while i had to ladder a little bit with my normal account. | ||
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rolfe
United Kingdom1266 Posts
One of the interesting things about the ladder i think is how it keeps you ranked at a level where you will consistently win 50/50 games and i've been thinking that it might be quite interesting to see what "par" would be for various builds. From that it would be possible to actually rank some strats in terms of how powerful they are. i'd be very interested to see how far 6pool say would get up the ladder, i would guess comfortably into platinum. obviously this would only work with simple build orders that finish the game one way or the other early on. | ||
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Dominator1370
United States111 Posts
On January 24 2011 21:57 Geiko wrote: Why is improving your ability to cheese not improving your ability to pay the game as a whole ? I could tell all the macro players out there : "sure you improve your macro, but you don't have any cheese builds so good players will just use greedy openings agaisnt you and you'll lose" This is actually a hugely important post that somehow slipped by. It's important because, in essence, Geiko is 100% correct in what he says, but it doesn't necessarily prove the point he was trying to make. It is absolutely true that a player who is only able to play the most passive, macro-based games is missing just as much as a player who can only play the most aggressive games. I'm not sure anyone disputed this. Where this falls apart is that traditional wisdom indicates that it is a lot harder for a player to learn to to play a solid, 30 minute long macro game than to follow some very specific build order and win or lose the match in 5 minutes. It seems to make sense: it sounds more challenging to continually make the correct decisions for 30 minutes than for 5 minutes. What's more, in a macro game, you attempt to exploit small mistakes of your opponent into small advantages for yourself, meaning you are used to finding small weaknesses and playing to win based on a small advantage you made for yourself. Cheese is typically focused on exploiting a very glaring flaw in your opponent's strategy that lets you just go kill your opponent now. In other words, cheese teaches you how to play with a significant immediate advantage, and how to get there when your opponent makes significant mistakes. It seems sensible that better players are going to be less likely to make a mistake that you can straight-out kill them for. Going a step further, once your opponent knows how to respond to your cheese, you're almost assuredly going to lose with it: cheese is too fragile to do much if your opponent responds well. On the other hand, if you're playing standard, the fact that someone knows how to respond to what you're doing doesn't really get them too far: the standard response to standard play doesn't result in either side having too big of an advantage. In other words, standard play seems to work better against people who know what they're doing than cheese does. It seems sensible to learn how to play against people who are actually good, instead of relying on your opponent to be bad. Of course, we've overlooked to this point how strong macro actually is. Starcraft is balanced in such a way that a whole lot stuff tends to beat a little bit of good stuff. If my army is 3 times as big, it doesn't matter very much how perfect your Marine to Marauder ratio is. None of this says a good player can't get far using cheese. No one, to my knowledge, questioned whether a Master League player could win games in the Master League with cheese. The question, as I understand it, is how well off a player is who only knows how to cheese. Geiko himself indicates that he can play at a skill level not insignificantly above his "normal" skill level with cheese. What happens when a player with very little real knowledge or experience with the game starts playing against significantly better people who understand how to very effectively deal with the poor player's cheese? That player is going to have a hell of a time playing standard. The player who focused on fundamentals and playing standard may not win, but they should at least have a lot more to fall back on. | ||
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Ponyo
United States1231 Posts
' Some replays/sc2ranks stats would be nice through. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
This is actually a hugely important post that somehow slipped by. It's important because, in essence, Geiko is 100% correct in what he says, but it doesn't necessarily prove the point he was trying to make. It is absolutely true that a player who is only able to play the most passive, macro-based games is missing just as much as a player who can only play the most aggressive games. I'm not sure anyone disputed this. Where this falls apart is that traditional wisdom indicates that it is a lot harder for a player to learn to to play a solid, 30 minute long macro game than to follow some very specific build order and win or lose the match in 5 minutes. It seems to make sense: it sounds more challenging to continually make the correct decisions for 30 minutes than for 5 minutes. Playing "macro-oriented" does mean playing passively. It just means being able to follow-up attacks and constantly putting yourself in a better and better position as the game goes on. If you think that being "macro" means that you forgo aggression then you're simply doing it wrong. It's why some of the builds described don't make a lot of sense as cheese. Blink Stalker all-in is only all-in if you make it an all-in. You don't have to. It could just be an aggressive opener. | ||
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itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
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tar
Germany991 Posts
Since I also play online leagues and tournaments I feel the need to have a good repertoire of strats (inlcuding cheese) to stand a chance. One example: Those sick TvP tank marine pushes. I lost to it 2 times and now I can fend it off most of the time (thx to NSPGenius btw), still a friend of mine wins almost every TvP with it on the ladder. Giving a bronze lvl player the advice not to cheese but to learn playing a solid game, means advising him to learn the basics he needs to become a better player instead of relying on one or two strats to get a high league ranking. As Sokrates says "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"  | ||
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