EPT;D
[D] "Master on cheese only" tested by geiko - Page 6
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Abstinence
United States328 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On January 24 2011 21:27 RabidSeagull wrote: I think PIQLIQ is a shining example of how a player can use cheese for almost a majority of his/her games and still end up being extremely high on the ladder, even though their marco skills and game sense, or whatever qualities you attribute to "normal game-play", are bad. I'm not trying to say I'm personally great at sc2 or anything, the point is just that it's better to play macro games but on ladder it seems like just cheesing actually can get you to the top, at least in terms of points gained. Geiko, having cheese builds to throw into the mix is always a good idea especially if you're playing a tournament-style bo5 or something. It's always good to have the element of surprise on your side. That being said, I really hate your example of BitByBitprime. He's a horrible player that can only cheese; the BoxeR vs NaDa comparison was a far more relevant example. Ya but Piqliq isn't even slightly bad, hes actually a really strong player and ive seen him met on alot of streams where he ends up in macro games and wins. I"m not saying he doesnt cheese ALOT, he does, but hes also got some skills ive noticed. I'm always reluctant to talk about how bad a player that is in the GSL... im pretty sure he could tell you what cheese hes going and you wouldnt be able to stop it 90% of the time because hes actually a good player with good control. | ||
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gREIFOCs
Argentina208 Posts
Most times, it doesn't work. Most times you get behind. Later, you learn and refine your play. The cheesing player gets almost nothing because is their win it's almost up to the other player. If they've seen this before, they will probably have a response, if they are playing safe, ect. Cheeses are extremely bad if they are not designed around a specific game. It's just bad practice. | ||
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pirsq
Australia145 Posts
On January 24 2011 23:45 TFB wrote: Complaining about cheese itself as a "not very good" tactic is a little bit like saying "yeah, but that doesn't count as I've still got most of my pieces" to an early loss in chess. Best analogy ever. | ||
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Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
On January 24 2011 21:44 Oishiiii wrote: You usually just kill the pylon with 4-5 SCV's before it finishes. 4 scv's can kill a pylon, in time, if he makes another, kill it too. Remember that he has to fund the pylons you kill and the zealots, 4-5 SCV's is enough.Hi, i'm Terran and I got cheesed by a Protoss. Early game, he sent one of his 6 probes in my base. Put 1 Pylo and 2 gates. Even if i see it, i can't do anything. He's first zealot come before my first rines. He kill some SCV while more zealots are coming... i'm getting far behind... if not dead. How can a Terran deal with that ? I can't go to an island (if there is one) and try to come back... the guy will chronoboost probe and make Voids. If all fails, put a bunker up. Basically, what you do is: 1: You go to his base with the SCV that made the first depot. 2: If you see nothing built there, not even a pylon, or no gateway when it should be there, you know something fishy is going on, send two SCV's around to scout the inside of your base and try to get a baracks out quicker than you normally do (stop building SCV's for a while to save 150) 3: You will most likely scout either one pylon and two gates, warping, or a pylon and a forge warping, kill the pylon, the pylons are your top priority unless there are already cannons warping in, cannons have less health than pylons namely, all other buildings have more health, and they stop working without pylons. 4: Don't waste your time trying to kill the probe until you have a marine out, the probe is as fast as your SCV's, even if you get some shots of, its shields will just regenerate. 5: If all goes well, you will be able to kill off his pylons while you slowly tech up. and get some marines, wih marines, you can easily kill the probe that is continuing to make pylons, after that, you're win, he is extremely far behind. Indeed, I am in love with it. The objective of SC2 is not to have the most money per minute income, nor is it to have slickest micro, or the best scouting, the objective is to let the other quit, or destroy all of his buildings. All other things are just means to that end, a good SC2 player is defined as a player exceptional at accomplishing the objectives, by whatever means. | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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Rakanishu2
United States475 Posts
Seriously I've opened gateway forge and sometimes even forge gateway several times and burned cheesers in some really hilarious ways. So like others have said, you need to play different on ladder than when you're in a tournament, the tournament players all know how to play standard where as on the ladder there are large portions of players who have no clue and won't. Edit: Most "safer" builds cost negligible amounts of macro anyway, my best example is forge gateway, if you see your opponent is going for a FE, you can just as easily plop yours down and not fall noticeably behind. early pool builds work much the same way, you can get a queen out earlier and pump drones, which in terms of macro, puts it at eye level with hatch first timing (isn't hatch first timing actually weaker in terms of macro than pool first... just easier to defend? I dunno I don't play zerg). | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On January 25 2011 04:49 OfficerTJHooker wrote: Honestly, if you're good at cheese, and you can consistently win games with it, I don't see what the problem is. I guess the only problem is what some other people already pointed out, that in tournaments people start to prepare for cheese, which gives them like an instant 70% additional win chance. The problem is simply you won't improve. Against players who fend off the cheese you are completely helpless. It's not that cheese can't net you wins. It's that it's just a flimsy strategy that will lose to competent players. If you cheese and the opponent loses, then that's because the opponent screwed up. Not because you're good at the game. I mean look at IdrA and Jinro: + Show Spoiler + ffs, IdrA lost because Jinro accidentally canceled his marine. That's a flimsy strategy, and exactly why IdrA doesn't rely on cheese. It's flimsy. | ||
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.Aar
2177 Posts
On January 25 2011 10:31 DoubleReed wrote: The problem is simply you won't improve. Against players who fend off the cheese you are completely helpless. You will improve, though. At cheesing. Who are you to say what's the right way to play the game? | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On January 25 2011 10:36 .Aar wrote: You will improve, though. At cheesing. Who are you to say what's the right way to play the game? Seriously, the skill cap of cheesing is not exactly orbital... I never said that cheesing is "incorrect." A win is a win. I said its flimsy. It doesn't work against competent players. It only works if the opponent makes glaring errors. I didn't say it doesn't work. | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
For example, one of the best ways to learn how to successfully macro while microing is to do a lot of proxy 2gating, because maintaining constant zealot production, using all your chronoboost, and still microing your zealots properly is key to succeeding with that build, and while the build itself isn't going to help you win consistently at high levels, it can help you develop a valuable skill. | ||
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Temporarykid
Canada362 Posts
Grats on masters... that's pretty intense though.  | ||
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
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emidanRKO
United States137 Posts
[B]These are the only strats i have been using. However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese. My last game which placed me in master went like this : failed cannon rush into scouted darkshrine into raping his base with proxy void ray that gave me a real good laugh because its sad and it actually does work. I'm pretty sure there was a thread that had something to do with 100 games of 4gate in all matchups. Some people did just that and got from like 2k diamond to 2800+ diamond (this was before master league) in those 100 games. It's seriously ridiculous how cheese/1base strats are just so strong. This is especially for protoss as if 1 cheese fails or even does considerable damage(say, a proxy zealot vs terran) you can just transition(into 4gate) and win anyway. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote: So i often hear diamond and master players tell bronze people how bad it is to cheese and how it won't get them to improve their game. They usualy tell them they need to improve their macro beacuse eventualy, people will learn to counter cheese. Well, anyways, what are your thoughts on cheesing ? Is there really a skill cap or could you potentialy compete at the highest level using massive amounts of cheese (ActionJesuz ?) edit : when i say Dts, i don't mean containing your opponent with one or 2 Dts to expand safely, i mean getting 7-8 Dts to snipe both his CC/nexus/hatch You can keep cheesing, but eventually you're gonna get capped (once you reach better players)by your skill,which will never improve as long you don't play macro games. My humble experience: I never played Bw 1v1, just started to play seriously in Sc2. As P first learned the tech tree, then the basic strat: 4 gate. I keep 4gating until i reach a skill cap at diamond. I could not stop losing!! Then i started to play macro games, macro strats. At the begining, i was still losing. Until some day, i just started to win, some, then a lot. Now i'm a happy macro 2800 master. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
I think it really comes down to the level of the players; at a high enough level, though, any good player will scout the cheese and counter it properly. I can't imagine you reaching the top, but I think you'd get pretty far... | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
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2v2SNAX
Canada97 Posts
there are a lot of technically bad players in masters league. and most of them are there just due to their one-dimensional abuses... | ||
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letsroll
23 Posts
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GreenFaction
United States82 Posts
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