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Hi, I'm a Master League Zerg. I've been wondering why Zergs get an extra hatch for macro. I understand why this is necessary if your money is getting high, but for something like roaches, you don't really need a macro hatch as you can keep your money low quite easily with your regular hatches with queens.
I find that Day9 says that having a lot of larva is good. He says using spine crawlers are good because they are 0 larva, and he says that injecting with your queen is crucial because it gives you extra larva, but honestly, if you are spending all your money with the larva you are getting, why do you need the EXTRA larva.
I would greatly appreciate if someone could explain this to me. The only reason I could see it as being helpful is if you are having trouble macroing, OR in late game situations when you want to remax really quickly.
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You don't NEED a macro hatch.
Not all games are pure roach either.
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You don't need it for roaches but it is helpful for zerglings.
More larvae earlier = more drones earlier which = more money later to spend with your more larvae later
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Because the zerg army is typically weaker and therefore you need to be able to send multiple waves of units at the enemy and need the larva to reproduce extremely fast. The hatchery is our only production building, so having an extra one for more larva isn't a bad thing.
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Exactly what Sain said. If you don't have the extra larve you won't be able to reinforce in a timely manner so if your army gets killed then you lose.
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I like to make a macro hatch if i feel that i can come ahead with muta harass. Delaying the 3rd can make you safer from pushes too.
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If im doing a Ling Muta build and my bases are Saturated I can not spend all of my money without making a macro hatch
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if you are going with a ling heavy build you will probably want a macro hatch, if you are going with a roach heavy build you probably won't. Simple as that.
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larva can only stack up to 19 per hatch. If you want to stop a late late game deathball its always handy if you don't have to spend time for injections (also because you can use your queens to heal up stronger units). So getting getting extra hatches is quiet nice if you are preparing for the final zerg rush (the one where the stream of units never ends, because you collected alot of ressources before).
Also you are not expansion hatch dependand. If your opponent manages to destroy some expansions along with your army, you will run out of larva and can't keep up the production you would need to stop him. (thats the point where most zergs lose with endless amounts of overmins)
Well thats one point why i am not to fond of zerg anymore hatches everywhere on the map just looked badass ... would even look more badass in sc2, but oh well without larva injection the other races would have the imba macro mechanics not the zerg.
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Beside the advantages that have already been mentioned: even pure Roach needs a Macro-Hatch once you have two fully saturated bases running. I used to play a heavy upgraded Roach Style before the Void->Colossi transitions became so popular, and the macro Hatch allowed not only for constant Roach production, but also simultaneous production of Roaches and Drones for a third base. Just from two Hatches you will not be able to keep pressure and Macro up at the same time, while the 10 Larva/min from the third allow you exactly that.
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Well I like it a lot if my bases are spread out. For example on Metalopolis, If I have the top and a 3rd or fourth at the right side, I don't make more units there because of the long travel distance. Also, if they enemy doesn't know I have that fourth, he will probably find out sooner if I have lings running around the map everywhere. He will find out anyway if I have 2 macro hatches but It will still buy time while he is searching.
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I'll base the mining income on this great topic to prove my point: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055
Now, lets see. I just played a game against a very easy AI to see how much larvae the hatchery spawns in a minute, answer is 4. 60 divided by 4 = 1 larva every 15 seconds. Larvae infuse gives you 4 larvae every 40 seconds. If you divide that by 4, it's about a larva every 10 seconds. In other words, you get the equivalent of about 10 larvae every minute. However, since this would require larvae injects and your macro to be perfect, I'll lower the estimation to about 8 larvae/minute(Thanks to Phay)
Now let's see the mining speeds from the topic above:
(Note SCVs = Drones)
- From 0 to 2 SCVs/patch, each additional SCV adds ~39-45 minerals/game minute.
- Going from 2 SCVs/patch to 3 SCVs/patch will yield diminishing returns.
- 3 SCVs/patch will fully saturate a mineral patch. Adding additional SCVs will not increase mining rate at all.
- At full saturation, each patch will yield ~102 minerals/minute.
- A base with 8 mineral patches will yield ~672 minerals/min with 16 SCVs, or ~816 minerals with 24 SCVs.
- From 0 to 2 SCVs/geyser, each additional SCV adds ~33-42 gas/game minute.
- Going to 3 SCVs/geyser yields a slightly smaller amount of gas.
- 3 SCVs will usually saturate a geyser, but some far-corner geysers will require 4 SCVs to saturate. (the 4th SCV yields only a small increase in income)
- At full saturation, each geyser will yield ~114 gas/minute.
- A base with 2 vespene geysers will yield ~228 gas/minute with 6 SCVs (7 if unlucky).
Now that means that with 2 fully saturated bases, our income per minute would around:
-1632 minerals per minute
-456 gas per minute
And let's say we're going heavy roaches:
(At 16 larvae per minute since we have 2 hatcheries) Roach cost- 75 minerals and 25 gas
Overlords needed: 4(400 minerals)
1600 Minerals/minute
400 gas/minute
What about if we're going roach/hydra?
(50% roaches, 50% hydras)Hydra cost: 100 minerals/50 gas
Overlords needed: 4(400 minerals)
1800 Minerals/minute
600 gas/minute
Muta/ling?
(25% mutas, 75% zerglings)Muta cost: 100 minerals/100 gas. Zergling cost: 50 minerals
Overlords needed: 2(200minerals)
1200 Minerals/ minute
400 gas/ minute
An in-base macro hatch would be needed here. Although we won't be able to use all larvae on the third hatch, our minerals will still be low.
(4 mutas, 18 pair of zerglings)
3 overlords needed(300 minerals)
1600 minerals/minutes
400 gas/minute
And pure zerglings?
Zergling cost: 50 minerals
Overlords needed: 2(200 minerals)
1000 minerals/minute
An in-base hatchery would be needed here. The total cost would be:
Overlords needed: 3
1500 mineral/minute
Conclusion: It would seem that if you aren't going pure mass zergling or muta/ling, an inbase macro hatch would be pointless. You can barely use all your larvae on pure roaches or roach/hydra. Even though we aren't including drones or other zerg units, you can get a general idea of the larvae required depending on your amount of income/expos.
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You generally make your macro hatch at the same time as your third. You shouldn't need it off 2base, but you can't spend all of your money off 3base income with only 3 hatches unless you're doing some hardcore teching.
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As a low Masters player I find in-base hatcheries really help me as I always have extra energy to inject.
Of course I don't add an extra hatch every game but if I see that my money is going above 1k and I'm on 3+ bases I'll throw it down.
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On January 23 2011 02:27 Shintuku wrote:I'll base the mining income on this great topic to prove my point: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055Now, lets see. I just played a game against a very easy AI to see how much larvae the hatchery spawns in a minute, answer is 4. 60 divided by 4 = 1 larva every 15 seconds. Larvae infuse gives you 4 larvae every 40 seconds. If you divide that by 4, it's about a larva every 10 seconds. In other words, you get the equivalent of about 10 larvae every minute. Now let's see the mining speeds from the topic above: (Note SCVs = Drones)
Your larva estimation is way high - only if your injects are perfect AND your macro so diligent that your hatches always have 2 or fewer larva will this occur. I'd imagine in practice a good player will experience closer to 7 or 8 larva per minute. In the Zerg scheme of things, a functional macro hatch costs 500 minerals (drone + hatch + queen) - not a huge investment for the Zerg in the 2base scheme of things. That's only 4 roaches if we call the gas the same as minerals and count the overlord. The extra larva could provide a large enough force for a round of units that holds a push that wouldn't otherwise. It will also let you re-drone faster if you should lose a pile of workers..
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its not only to use up resources but also to rebuild armies which is necessary in late game stages because your 200 sup army is weaker than lets say the protoss army and its almost certain that you wont defeat it with one assault but there is a huge difference how many "circles" you need to rebuild
5 hatches with 6 larva generate get 30 roaches for example while 4 with 6 only 24 and this matters a lot if the enemy knocks at your door
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Because larva is the ONLY resource that is GOOD to stockpile?
I always want to have a larva thrust fund, thank you.
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One must always remember to count supply when counting these values. Extra 100 minerals and a larva for every 8 supply is huge
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Its great for late game, great for muta/ling for example as you will get a ton of minerals with muta/ling and unless your not saturating your bases enough you will be able to support a macro hatch at your base.
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Indeed, thank's to Phay and Carpenter. I corrected my post. It now uses 8 larvae/minute estimations and overlords. Also added muta/ling cost estimates.
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The cost of 350minerals and 1 larva to give you a stockpile of larva to tech switch easily and replenish easily is very worth it.
I find that 3rd hatch can usually be put at an expansion rather then being inbase but it barely hurts to put one down in mid-game as there is usually a massive mineral surplus.
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I find that I need a macro hatch when I take a gold. Them minerals go crazy. And ofc, if you hit 200/200 food then what else do you spend minerals on?
1base 2 hatch in ZvZ can be nice. You can outproduce a 1 hatch player but still have the benefits of ramp defence.
I think if you do the numbers then 2 bases + 2 queens and perfectly timed injects will pretty much spend all your money. Trouble is not even the pros are flawless, and if you are late with some injects the money can begin to climb. At that point its better to bite the bullet and add a 3rd hatch even if its not completely optimal. Its nice to have a bit of a cushion in Larvae anyway, especially in lategame when it becomes more difficult to be on time with inject.
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Another benefit is that your units are more together when they spawn. I used to have trouble holding off late game allin pushes against terran and protoss because after the first big encounter, my reinforcements would be streaming in from all my different expansions at different times, with some of them getting picked off before i can get them organized. With a macro hatch, more of the larvae is coming from the same area, so im generally much more organized creating my second wave of units.
In these situation I'm usually quite rich anyhow, and can afford an extra hatch or two. Also, the cost of overlord is generally not a factor at this point.
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A macro hatch on 2 base without taking your third is a sign of weakness.
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Like everyone's mentioned, if you're going 2 base muta an extra in-base hatch is necessary since you'll definitely have left over minerals, and zerglings are larvae expensive. Even if not going mutas, it makes the game more forgiving.
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Because unlike the other races, Zerg has no structures to produce larvae. It's just a good thing to have when you've stockpiled minerals and/or you're unit count is a bit below what you want.
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for roach/ling midgame its extremely awesome. also, you can produce more units at 1 time when he moves out allowing you to saturate a fourth for example way more aggressively
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Technically if you have perfect macro, a macro hatch really wouldn't be all that beneficial.
However late game when Zerg game play gets pretty chaotic while trying to break your opponent and manage your tech, while keeping ahead in expansions, some times you may forget an inject or be late to inject.
And extra hatch will allow you to drain that extra energy on your queen. So it makes missing an inject not as detrimental to your production as it would normally be.
You ask if your spending your money what do you need a macro hatch for? Well, typically the cheaper the unit the more larvae are needed to support its production. For instance if your keeping up with your injects your Mutalisk production would almost never be held back by lack of larvae, more likely not enough Gas.
Where as if you making a lot of zerglings, with just queens and your normal base hatches its going to be hard to spend your money, due to you don't have enough larvae to keep your money low, just making lings.
Depending on your strategy during the game, you may want to consider getting your macro hatch earlier if you are to be making lots of low tier cheap units.
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Not sure if anyone mentioned this.. but one reason for more larvae is that it saves overlords, when you dilute your forces and trade them in battle those extra larvae turn into instant extra units, they allow you an instant rebound ability without having to buy extra lords. You can therefore be quite aggressive below 80 control.
Having 1 queen assigned to 2 hatches also allows a full utilization of her energy as you can quickly dual inject.
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Btw 1 spine crawler is 1 larva because of the 1 drone.. Just thought id mention that 
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Queen energy = 110.... sigh, get macro hatch.
I think of it largely as a crutch for less than ideal macro play.
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the extra hatch really really helps you for muta ling builds, and any build with mass ling. Its kind of a safe guard hatch, which you can reinforce off fast. When I go heavy roach I don't go extra hatch as I will not need the extra larva, as I can't spend it as fast. Though, when you hit 3-4 bases, and extra is always helpful when you need to reinforce.
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its for dealing with deathballs... .
for toss deathball coming, i send bunch of overlords with my army for creep, corrupters on colossus, if i can kill all his colossus before my army all dies i pull back pump out all my larva in whatever counters what he has left, and then its right back at him for attack,
for terran, normally zergling/bling, mutas, and some roach and micro bling to bio ball, roaches and lings just A move, and mutas can focus stuff easy...
if you dont have the larva to reinforce your army after the 200/200 battle your not gonna win..
EDIT:iof you keep injecting with your queens, u can stockpile larva and instantly make a new army and be ready to attack after the initial deathball battle... where as toss has to wait for a unit cooldown from warpgates and build time from stargates and robo, same with terran, tanks take time to make and if you have three factorys making tanks, thats three tanks every x seconds.. vs your 6 hatcherys with 15 larva each on them. that can easly morph in roach,lings,hydras, and mutas, faster than he can get any tanks or thors, or a big bio ball back
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In-base Hatch is good because:
a) Missing injects is quite unforgiving, the macro Hatch pays for itself making up for the larva you lost missing injects (it happens to us mere mortals, we arent all Idra or Machine)
b) Replenishing our troops quickly, as Zerg units aren't nearly as supply effective as the rest of the races. We don't win by going toe-to-toe with Terran or Toss in a 200/200 fight: we consume them with wave after wave of engagements.
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Do you need it? Nope, but do you technically need more than one phoenix to take out 50 mutalisks? nope.
At later game, for 300 minerals and one drone, even if your money is being kept low all the time, I'd get one just to be sure. You never know what's going to happen, your macro might slip for a moment. You might need a fast transition into mass speedlings and what-else.
I see a lot of people here say things like 'expect the best from your opponent', and a lot of times the things they suggest like not queuing, microing, doing a lot of drops, forcefielding, also more or less assume that they themselves will not screw up. I prefer to estimate my chances more realistically, even in masters, you will make mistakes, and so will your opponent, so assume you are going to make mistakes I would say, build a nice margin of error, and get that macro hatch.
You may not need it, but if you never needed it, that's only 300 minerals and one drone, and zerg generally has no problems with getting minerals. If you do end up needing it, better safe than sorry.
I might need only 8 gateways to warp in correctly from 3 bases, but I know I'm bound to miss some cool-downs, so I take 10.
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It's very simple, 3 hatches on two bass allow you to max out on roaches really quickly in a zvz, otr against a terran do a strong ling bling muta build since lings go through your larva so quickly.
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one coined phrase
300 food push
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It can be good if you're not able to take a 3rd as early as you'd like.
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If you are good enough never to float 300 minerals in a macro game, then you prolly don't need to worry about macro hatches. Otherwise, its prolly a good idea to use that surplus to get extra larvae, I can't remember the last time I had too much larvae.
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I believe the macro hatch always has a place because if the game goes into late game it is a source of larvae for rebuilding your army, however even in mid game having the extra larvae to reinforce/insta saturate expansions is extremely useful. Inbase hatch is also less risky then an expansion.
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The way I see it is you either throw one down because your macro slips, you want to put on pressure or its late game and you want more hatches to reinforce with.
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EPT
