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Hi, I'm a Master League Zerg. I've been wondering why Zergs get an extra hatch for macro. I understand why this is necessary if your money is getting high, but for something like roaches, you don't really need a macro hatch as you can keep your money low quite easily with your regular hatches with queens.
I find that Day9 says that having a lot of larva is good. He says using spine crawlers are good because they are 0 larva, and he says that injecting with your queen is crucial because it gives you extra larva, but honestly, if you are spending all your money with the larva you are getting, why do you need the EXTRA larva.
I would greatly appreciate if someone could explain this to me. The only reason I could see it as being helpful is if you are having trouble macroing, OR in late game situations when you want to remax really quickly.
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You don't NEED a macro hatch.
Not all games are pure roach either.
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You don't need it for roaches but it is helpful for zerglings.
More larvae earlier = more drones earlier which = more money later to spend with your more larvae later
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Because the zerg army is typically weaker and therefore you need to be able to send multiple waves of units at the enemy and need the larva to reproduce extremely fast. The hatchery is our only production building, so having an extra one for more larva isn't a bad thing.
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Exactly what Sain said. If you don't have the extra larve you won't be able to reinforce in a timely manner so if your army gets killed then you lose.
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I like to make a macro hatch if i feel that i can come ahead with muta harass. Delaying the 3rd can make you safer from pushes too.
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If im doing a Ling Muta build and my bases are Saturated I can not spend all of my money without making a macro hatch
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if you are going with a ling heavy build you will probably want a macro hatch, if you are going with a roach heavy build you probably won't. Simple as that.
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larva can only stack up to 19 per hatch. If you want to stop a late late game deathball its always handy if you don't have to spend time for injections (also because you can use your queens to heal up stronger units). So getting getting extra hatches is quiet nice if you are preparing for the final zerg rush (the one where the stream of units never ends, because you collected alot of ressources before).
Also you are not expansion hatch dependand. If your opponent manages to destroy some expansions along with your army, you will run out of larva and can't keep up the production you would need to stop him. (thats the point where most zergs lose with endless amounts of overmins)
Well thats one point why i am not to fond of zerg anymore hatches everywhere on the map just looked badass ... would even look more badass in sc2, but oh well without larva injection the other races would have the imba macro mechanics not the zerg.
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Beside the advantages that have already been mentioned: even pure Roach needs a Macro-Hatch once you have two fully saturated bases running. I used to play a heavy upgraded Roach Style before the Void->Colossi transitions became so popular, and the macro Hatch allowed not only for constant Roach production, but also simultaneous production of Roaches and Drones for a third base. Just from two Hatches you will not be able to keep pressure and Macro up at the same time, while the 10 Larva/min from the third allow you exactly that.
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Well I like it a lot if my bases are spread out. For example on Metalopolis, If I have the top and a 3rd or fourth at the right side, I don't make more units there because of the long travel distance. Also, if they enemy doesn't know I have that fourth, he will probably find out sooner if I have lings running around the map everywhere. He will find out anyway if I have 2 macro hatches but It will still buy time while he is searching.
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I'll base the mining income on this great topic to prove my point: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055
Now, lets see. I just played a game against a very easy AI to see how much larvae the hatchery spawns in a minute, answer is 4. 60 divided by 4 = 1 larva every 15 seconds. Larvae infuse gives you 4 larvae every 40 seconds. If you divide that by 4, it's about a larva every 10 seconds. In other words, you get the equivalent of about 10 larvae every minute. However, since this would require larvae injects and your macro to be perfect, I'll lower the estimation to about 8 larvae/minute(Thanks to Phay)
Now let's see the mining speeds from the topic above:
(Note SCVs = Drones)
- From 0 to 2 SCVs/patch, each additional SCV adds ~39-45 minerals/game minute.
- Going from 2 SCVs/patch to 3 SCVs/patch will yield diminishing returns.
- 3 SCVs/patch will fully saturate a mineral patch. Adding additional SCVs will not increase mining rate at all.
- At full saturation, each patch will yield ~102 minerals/minute.
- A base with 8 mineral patches will yield ~672 minerals/min with 16 SCVs, or ~816 minerals with 24 SCVs.
- From 0 to 2 SCVs/geyser, each additional SCV adds ~33-42 gas/game minute.
- Going to 3 SCVs/geyser yields a slightly smaller amount of gas.
- 3 SCVs will usually saturate a geyser, but some far-corner geysers will require 4 SCVs to saturate. (the 4th SCV yields only a small increase in income)
- At full saturation, each geyser will yield ~114 gas/minute.
- A base with 2 vespene geysers will yield ~228 gas/minute with 6 SCVs (7 if unlucky).
Now that means that with 2 fully saturated bases, our income per minute would around:
-1632 minerals per minute
-456 gas per minute
And let's say we're going heavy roaches:
(At 16 larvae per minute since we have 2 hatcheries) Roach cost- 75 minerals and 25 gas
Overlords needed: 4(400 minerals)
1600 Minerals/minute
400 gas/minute
What about if we're going roach/hydra?
(50% roaches, 50% hydras)Hydra cost: 100 minerals/50 gas
Overlords needed: 4(400 minerals)
1800 Minerals/minute
600 gas/minute
Muta/ling?
(25% mutas, 75% zerglings)Muta cost: 100 minerals/100 gas. Zergling cost: 50 minerals
Overlords needed: 2(200minerals)
1200 Minerals/ minute
400 gas/ minute
An in-base macro hatch would be needed here. Although we won't be able to use all larvae on the third hatch, our minerals will still be low.
(4 mutas, 18 pair of zerglings)
3 overlords needed(300 minerals)
1600 minerals/minutes
400 gas/minute
And pure zerglings?
Zergling cost: 50 minerals
Overlords needed: 2(200 minerals)
1000 minerals/minute
An in-base hatchery would be needed here. The total cost would be:
Overlords needed: 3
1500 mineral/minute
Conclusion: It would seem that if you aren't going pure mass zergling or muta/ling, an inbase macro hatch would be pointless. You can barely use all your larvae on pure roaches or roach/hydra. Even though we aren't including drones or other zerg units, you can get a general idea of the larvae required depending on your amount of income/expos.
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You generally make your macro hatch at the same time as your third. You shouldn't need it off 2base, but you can't spend all of your money off 3base income with only 3 hatches unless you're doing some hardcore teching.
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As a low Masters player I find in-base hatcheries really help me as I always have extra energy to inject.
Of course I don't add an extra hatch every game but if I see that my money is going above 1k and I'm on 3+ bases I'll throw it down.
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On January 23 2011 02:27 Shintuku wrote:I'll base the mining income on this great topic to prove my point: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055Now, lets see. I just played a game against a very easy AI to see how much larvae the hatchery spawns in a minute, answer is 4. 60 divided by 4 = 1 larva every 15 seconds. Larvae infuse gives you 4 larvae every 40 seconds. If you divide that by 4, it's about a larva every 10 seconds. In other words, you get the equivalent of about 10 larvae every minute. Now let's see the mining speeds from the topic above: (Note SCVs = Drones)
Your larva estimation is way high - only if your injects are perfect AND your macro so diligent that your hatches always have 2 or fewer larva will this occur. I'd imagine in practice a good player will experience closer to 7 or 8 larva per minute. In the Zerg scheme of things, a functional macro hatch costs 500 minerals (drone + hatch + queen) - not a huge investment for the Zerg in the 2base scheme of things. That's only 4 roaches if we call the gas the same as minerals and count the overlord. The extra larva could provide a large enough force for a round of units that holds a push that wouldn't otherwise. It will also let you re-drone faster if you should lose a pile of workers..
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its not only to use up resources but also to rebuild armies which is necessary in late game stages because your 200 sup army is weaker than lets say the protoss army and its almost certain that you wont defeat it with one assault but there is a huge difference how many "circles" you need to rebuild
5 hatches with 6 larva generate get 30 roaches for example while 4 with 6 only 24 and this matters a lot if the enemy knocks at your door
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Because larva is the ONLY resource that is GOOD to stockpile?
I always want to have a larva thrust fund, thank you.
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One must always remember to count supply when counting these values. Extra 100 minerals and a larva for every 8 supply is huge
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Its great for late game, great for muta/ling for example as you will get a ton of minerals with muta/ling and unless your not saturating your bases enough you will be able to support a macro hatch at your base.
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Indeed, thank's to Phay and Carpenter. I corrected my post. It now uses 8 larvae/minute estimations and overlords. Also added muta/ling cost estimates.
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EPT
