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On February 25 2011 00:35 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 23:51 BONE wrote:
I have a question... At what point in the match do you feel like your FE is starting to pay dividends? I usually feel behind most of the match if I FE and he comes to attack me. Once your first MULE starts mining from your Orbital at the nat, you notice a spike in income. So it doesn't take too long after your expansion goes up, so long as you maynard a few workers. The bunkers are your investment to keep you alive during the period where you are weakest. As long as you defend any pushes without losing a significant amount of SCVs, you'll be ahead simply because your expansion was up faster and you can benefit from double MULEs.
Ok that makes sense... Even if they see you have an Expo and fall back to make their own you are in fact ahead at that point, provided you can defend whatever push they came at you with. I like the Marine/Tank/Banshee/Raven combo (against protoss) I normally do this off 1 base, and I harrass the mineral line with the 1st Banshee.... But the idea of it off 2 bases makes it seem much more powerful. I can't wait to try it tonight!
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On February 24 2011 00:58 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 00:52 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Nice Builds and replays, but if I see 3 bunkers in your natural, what stops me from just loading up in a dropship/warp prism and going for the main? Nothing, that's something the Terran player should absolutely be expecting. If you cut off the main avenue of entrance, of course it is in the best interest of the opponent to find another way in, via drops, proxy warpins or Nydus. This is all dealt with having total vision of your base through building placement or patrolling marines. You need to expect these things when you play this style, so just keep a good eye out, control the watchtowers and if possible, send units out to the angles they come in from so that you can intercept it.
^^ Pretty much yes...I was looking for a safe expand , this seems to be a good one. What im surprised is that this can i guess be used against all races..Tried vs a zerg opponent and won.heling blinged thru the side opening but bunkers do help in saving the base. Went mass marines with banshee vs his roach later and end of game!..thanks for the build Synstyr, will be my std build now! Let me know if where I can improve on this build !
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-191836.jpg)
PS- Please put up more replays vs Zerg and terran for this build esp in diff scenarios like mass ling, ling bling muta harass , roach hyra etc..would flesh it out more!
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On February 25 2011 01:18 BONE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 00:35 Synystyr wrote:On February 24 2011 23:51 BONE wrote:
I have a question... At what point in the match do you feel like your FE is starting to pay dividends? I usually feel behind most of the match if I FE and he comes to attack me. Once your first MULE starts mining from your Orbital at the nat, you notice a spike in income. So it doesn't take too long after your expansion goes up, so long as you maynard a few workers. The bunkers are your investment to keep you alive during the period where you are weakest. As long as you defend any pushes without losing a significant amount of SCVs, you'll be ahead simply because your expansion was up faster and you can benefit from double MULEs. Ok that makes sense... Even if they see you have an Expo and fall back to make their own you are in fact ahead at that point, provided you can defend whatever push they came at you with. I like the Marine/Tank/Banshee/Raven combo (against protoss) I normally do this off 1 base, and I harrass the mineral line with the 1st Banshee.... But the idea of it off 2 bases makes it seem much more powerful. I can't wait to try it tonight!
I wish you luck! Beware of early 1 base timing pushes. As long as you spot the attack ahead of time, you can be ready with your SCVs to repair your bunkers. With two bases, you can invest in more upgrades and do a much larger timing push. Post any replays if you have issues.
On February 25 2011 01:56 vahgar.r24 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 00:58 Synystyr wrote:On February 24 2011 00:52 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Nice Builds and replays, but if I see 3 bunkers in your natural, what stops me from just loading up in a dropship/warp prism and going for the main? Nothing, that's something the Terran player should absolutely be expecting. If you cut off the main avenue of entrance, of course it is in the best interest of the opponent to find another way in, via drops, proxy warpins or Nydus. This is all dealt with having total vision of your base through building placement or patrolling marines. You need to expect these things when you play this style, so just keep a good eye out, control the watchtowers and if possible, send units out to the angles they come in from so that you can intercept it. ^^ Pretty much yes...I was looking for a safe expand , this seems to be a good one. What im surprised is that this can i guess be used against all races..Tried vs a zerg opponent and won.heling blinged thru the side opening but bunkers do help in saving the base. Went mass marines with banshee vs his roach later and end of game!..thanks for the build Synstyr, will be my std build now! Let me know if where I can improve on this build ! PS- Please put up more replays vs Zerg and terran for this build esp in diff scenarios like mass ling, ling bling muta harass , roach hyra etc..would flesh it out more!
I'm glad you're enjoying it  I'll get a few more Zerg games uploaded ASAP! I'm trying to find the right transition out of this myself....Thor/Hellion/MMM has been going decently well for me but I got rofled in the late game if my push is stopped. Maybe I'll just have to learn Marine Tank Medivac better ^^
I'll check the replay as soon as I get home!
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Ok I have done the strat some more and it seems to be good versus Zerg/Protoss. However my last game on Xelnaga Caverns I got hit by a proxy 4-gate at 5.40 into the game.
I had not even finished my CC (which I built in my main) and since I planned on using 3-4 bunkers at my expo I had no bunkers at my main so I lost. What can you do against such a fast 4-gate if you plan on doing a FE?
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On February 26 2011 05:30 MockHamill wrote:
Ok I have done the strat some more and it seems to be good versus Zerg/Protoss. However my last game on Xelnaga Caverns I got hit by a proxy 4-gate at 5.40 into the game.
I had not even finished my CC (which I built in my main) and since I planned on using 3-4 bunkers at my expo I had no bunkers at my main so I lost. What can you do against such a fast 4-gate if you plan on doing a FE?
Unfortunately, it is way too difficult to bunker expand on a map like Xel'naga Caverns because of the huge, wide open natural. You simply can't cover every opening with a bunker as the Protoss can simply bypass them. Try a 2 Rax Stim Expand instead on maps like these.
Also, it sounds like your bunkers are slow if you aren't getting them up before the 4 Gate. The timing of the bunkers finishes almost at the same time as Warp Gate is finished researching. Have a replay handy? I can check it for you.
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It seem the new maps completely destroys this opening? Every natural is to open to bunker expand?
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You should post a replay of some standard ZvT play. Not those damn roach pushes
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i have been trying this build, it seems to fall very easliy to any 1 base colo or fe into colo, i just don't have enough units even though i can get vikings in time, im still not sure why
the only way i got this to work reliably was by using the first 4-6 marines and 2 scvs to rush the protoss to prevent him from going 1 gate FE while expanding myself, even if i lose 4 mraines i can stop his counter-attack with the bunkers and i will be ahead
its a good build but requires a lot of practice to get right, at least against master level players
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Sorry I haven't gotten back to you guys in a bit, I've been busy.
On February 26 2011 19:14 MockHamill wrote:
It seem the new maps completely destroys this opening? Every natural is to open to bunker expand?
Yes, the new maps do not favor this opening. While this kind of opener is useful on maps that allow it, I do not recommend this for the most recent map pool. The only viable map left I would open with this build is on Shattered Temple, where the choke is still small enough that 3 bunkers will heavily deter runbys, and still allow for SCVs to quickly reinforce and repair.
On February 26 2011 21:30 basic369 wrote:
You should post a replay of some standard ZvT play. Not those damn roach pushes
Sorry, it was all I had at the time. I'll work on a few more replays with this opener vs Zerg. I'll get my practice partner to Baneling bust me and show you the effectiveness a double wallin has against it =]
On February 28 2011 00:29 LG)Sabbath wrote:
i have been trying this build, it seems to fall very easliy to any 1 base colo or fe into colo, i just don't have enough units even though i can get vikings in time, im still not sure why
the only way i got this to work reliably was by using the first 4-6 marines and 2 scvs to rush the protoss to prevent him from going 1 gate FE while expanding myself, even if i lose 4 mraines i can stop his counter-attack with the bunkers and i will be ahead
its a good build but requires a lot of practice to get right, at least against master level players
I believe that if you can't get the units out fast enough to take out 1 base Colossi or especially FE -> Colossi, your macro is not up to par. I can easily tech to Starport and have a Raven + Thor out before the first Colossus hits. If you scout a 1 base Colossus rush, obviously you'd get something else to deny it instead of a raven, but you should have more than enough to stop this push.
My suggestion is to focus more heavily on tech, rather than more bio if you scout this type of play. MM doesn't cut it vs this kind of a rush and you'll want to get some sort of air unit out to deal with it. Post a replay if you need further analysis!
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This works great, I 2racks/3bunk FE like you said and it worked i just held off the choke wit marines in the bunkers, he zealot rushed me then switched in 3gate/port.
I went rine/thor
I destroyed him badly
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Specifically with the new patch coming up, I'll be doing a large update on this post. Protoss early pressure pushes may come before the bunkers are able to finish so I'll see if I can get on the PTR and test this out. What it may come down to is that you will have to drop 3 bunkers at your natural before CC if you scout early Gateway pressure.
Also, I want to touch base on double expands behind this build as well. I've been having extremely good success with double expanding vs Zerg and feel like it can definitely be extended vs Terran and Protoss. Look forward to more!
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I was on the PTR all evening yesterday testing out various openings vs Toss. I got the pleasure of playing against a few Master Protoss (for I am mere high-Diamond). My marine-only builds were put under a lot of fire, as Stalker+Zealot pressure came as expected 5-10 seconds sooner. I was able to hold off, but only barely (at the hands of a few defensive SCV).
One thing that I have realized is the stability and consistency of a 2-Rax opening with Concussive Shell Marauders into Fast expansion. While the Zealots come a lot sooner, they arrive at the base only seconds before -- or right during -- Concussive finishes. This plays into my hands as a Terran, as the Protoss literally feeds me free units to kite and mop up. This might be an early PTR Meta and might soon change, but it is under my impression that Protoss now feels very confident with having units sooner and sends them right over. In the past, I had to send 2 Marauder, 2 Marine to his base to clear out a few units. It seems every game they came right to me.
I feel this sort of opening will be necessary. I would do a 1-Rax (2 Conc. Marauder 1 Marine) opener, but because some protoss are more eager than others, I need the 2nd naked Rax as insurance in case he chooses to continue the pressure after the 2nd and even 3rd Gateways finish. But from there, getting bunkers and a CC around 5:30 are very easy. That would ensure a safe 2 Rax stim opener into whatever build one may desire.
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inferior to 1 rax cc into 4 rax marine.. can't put pressure on zerg if you're turtling with bunkers
will do nothing vs early drop play hellion harrassment from terran.. i thought it was already established 1 rax cc or 2 rax pressure cc is the better tvp build and 2 rax tvz... try again maybe
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Hi
I've been working on a variant of this build, but it seems against protoss and terran it is very effective to go the 12 and 13 rax (Cutting a few seconds off an SCV) and doing a quick 6 marine (2 scv if protoss) push. This will arrive at the enemy base between 5:00 to 5:20 game time, and the protoss will likely only have a zealot and a stalker with another unit on the way, and a terran will have a few marines going for siege tanks. an early supply block or a mismicro can easily win you the game, and if not you are still expanding early, and you can hold off a counter attack with bunkers and good play.
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I like this build a lot. I'm a new Terran player and I like the idea of a quick expansion with bunkers/marines to fortify it.
I wonder though. I came up with a build of my own for 22 SCVs, 14 Marines and 3 Bunkers finished at 5:50-5:55. Seems like this would be even tougher to crack with stuff like Roach Push.
10 Supply Depot
12 Barracks
15 Orbital Command
15 Marine
16 Calldown MULE
16 Barracks
16 Command Center
16 Marine
17 Barracks
17 Supply Depot
17 Marine
20 Marine
21 Marine
22 Bunker
23 Marine
24 Marine
25 Marine
26 Calldown MULE
26 Orbital Command
27 Marine
28 Marine
29 Marine
30 Bunker
30 Bunker
31 Marine
32 Marine
33 Marine
5:50.00 397M 0G
Income: 1257M 0G
Buildings: 3 Barracks 2 Orbital Command 3 Bunker
Units: 22 SCV 14 Marine
Basically a no-gas FE for Terran with 22 SCVs and 14 Marines, along with 3 Bunkers to defend. As soon as you expand you could get gas if you wanted, or just wait and get all four at the same time and tech explode like the Spanishiwa build.
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Hmmm... I'm wonder if this has been nullified by any sort of patch in the past 3 months since this strategy was made. I'll have to try it out; as I'm not very confident in 1/1/1 and from Warcraft 3, I'm used to having a standard opening vs all the other races. Hah, and a fast expand, and I used to be a Human player. It'll be a shame if this strategy's affected by recent patches.
And I like bunkers :D
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On May 20 2011 05:03 deathtrance wrote:
Hmmm... I'm wonder if this has been nullified by any sort of patch in the past 3 months since this strategy was made. I'll have to try it out; as I'm not very confident in 1/1/1 and from Warcraft 3, I'm used to having a standard opening vs all the other races. Hah, and a fast expand, and I used to be a Human player. It'll be a shame if this strategy's affected by recent patches.
And I like bunkers :D
The only patch change that would have affected this opener is the bunker salvage refund. You lose 25 minerals for each bunker salvage....big deal  Warpgate research times was nerfed, so you don't have to fear for 4 Gates with an opener like this and such.
I still use this in TvP and TvZ. Not quite so sturdy in TvT because of early tank pushes however.
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I have an idea to make this bo work on the new ladder maps :O
When you're cutting marines to build a depot, why not lift off your 2 rax to complete the bunker walloff? It takes away your initial walloff if you chose to make one (blink stalkers are more effective), but it deters any dt rush or zergling runby.
It probly wouldn't work on every map in the ladder map pool, but it's worth a try :D
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On May 20 2011 07:19 noobinator wrote:
I have an idea to make this bo work on the new ladder maps :O
When you're cutting marines to build a depot, why not lift off your 2 rax to complete the bunker walloff? It takes away your initial walloff if you chose to make one (blink stalkers are more effective), but it deters any dt rush or zergling runby.
It probly wouldn't work on every map in the ladder map pool, but it's worth a try :D
Haha actually, I'm already doing that vs Zerg. I double expand, once at 23 and again at 27. During that small supply cap, I lift the barracks off and land them in front of my bunkers. The bunkers are built spaced out and the barracks close the gaps. This makes for an extremely baneling-proof wallin and still allows marines to rally behind the wall. It's amazing ^^
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Hi Synystyr,
I'm also keen to see more zerg games with your strategy. I'm totally clueless in TvZ and mostly rely on my opponents mistakes to win the game so I'm hyper curious about this double expanding business and how the game flows in your TvZ when running this strat.
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EPT
