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On February 24 2011 00:41 Synystyr wrote:
In light of the recent popularity of the iEchoic 2Fact2Port build, I've added some information on the best way to deal with that style of play in the post.
I've come to the realization that this opener is can be flimsy in the TvT matchup, so take my advice with a grain of salt. With proper scouting and preparation, you can still manage to pull this off however as long as you have the proper transitions.
Thanks, I've been following your posts for a while now, its really helping a fellow Terran out!
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On February 24 2011 00:52 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Nice Builds and replays, but if I see 3 bunkers in your natural, what stops me from just loading up in a dropship/warp prism and going for the main?
Nothing, that's something the Terran player should absolutely be expecting. If you cut off the main avenue of entrance, of course it is in the best interest of the opponent to find another way in, via drops, proxy warpins or Nydus.
This is all dealt with having total vision of your base through building placement or patrolling marines. You need to expect these things when you play this style, so just keep a good eye out, control the watchtowers and if possible, send units out to the angles they come in from so that you can intercept it.
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If you do this opener against Protoss and they go 4-gate warp prism into your main I doubt it is possible to have enough troops in time to deal with it. In my experience it is not possible to stop the warp prism even if you spot it early, they will drop some units and immediately warp in more. You cannot really focus-fire the warp prism without losing to much units to his warp-in units in the meantime.
But given that you hold their attack is it possible to transition straight to Thors after you get the expansion up or is it better to go Marine/Marauders first and then transition into Thors?
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On February 24 2011 02:50 MockHamill wrote:
If you do this opener against Protoss and they go 4-gate warp prism into your main I doubt it is possible to have enough troops in time to deal with it. In my experience it is not possible to stop the warp prism even if you spot it early, they will drop some units and immediately warp in more. You cannot really focus-fire the warp prism without losing to much units to his warp-in units in the meantime.
But given that you hold their attack is it possible to transition straight to Thors after you get the expansion up or is it better to go Marine/Marauders first and then transition into Thors?
The style I play goes directly into Thors as soon as my expansion goes up.
CC -> Factory -> Armory
The timing of this allows me to get a Thor out just as the drop occurs and with some repair micro and pulling my marines to help, I can hold the push off. It's such a heavy investment for the Protoss to do this kind of attack, so if I stop it, I am undeniably ahead.
So yes, it is perfectly viable to go straight into Thor tech off your expansion. I do it almost every TvP.
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The style I play goes directly into Thors as soon as my expansion goes up.
CC -> Factory -> Armory
The timing of this allows me to get a Thor out just as the drop occurs and with some repair micro and pulling my marines to help, I can hold the push off. It's such a heavy investment for the Protoss to do this kind of attack, so if I stop it, I am undeniably ahead.
So yes, it is perfectly viable to go straight into Thor tech off your expansion. I do it almost every TvP.
thats basicly an all in strategy bud sure u get the thor out and push/ defend repairing it but than what?? assuming both of u expand after the failed aggresion / defence he simply goes immortals with the robo he NEEDS anyways and what do u do ?? either transfer bio and waste all that invested money to get the thor or u continue with mech and get completly baped by immos/colo/storm ... imo the 2 rax to a fe > 3 bunkers is the best opening againts protoss these days possibly throw in 1 - 2 turrets againts early collosi or void rays ... going back to the drop 3 bunkers full of units should be able to stop 4 zealots + 3 or 4 units warped in u always have scvs assuming u tranfer from the 2-fe into a 2-1-1 just pump a viking out and kill the prism
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On February 24 2011 03:02 Chrumchrum wrote:Show nested quote +The style I play goes directly into Thors as soon as my expansion goes up.
CC -> Factory -> Armory
The timing of this allows me to get a Thor out just as the drop occurs and with some repair micro and pulling my marines to help, I can hold the push off. It's such a heavy investment for the Protoss to do this kind of attack, so if I stop it, I am undeniably ahead.
So yes, it is perfectly viable to go straight into Thor tech off your expansion. I do it almost every TvP. thats basicly an all in strategy bud sure u get the thor out and push/ defend repairing it but than what?? assuming both of u expand after the failed aggresion / defence he simply goes immortals with the robo he NEEDS anyways and what do u do ?? either transfer bio and waste all that invested money to get the thor or u continue with mech and get completly baped by immos/colo/storm ... imo the 2 rax to a fe > 3 bunkers is the best opening againts protoss these days possibly throw in 1 - 2 turrets againts early collosi or void rays ... going back to the drop 3 bunkers full of units should be able to stop 4 zealots + 3 or 4 units warped in u always have scvs assuming u tranfer from the 2-fe into a 2-1-1 just pump a viking out and kill the prism
Aye your grammar made this so incredibly difficult to read =X
So what's my next step? Well I'm ahead inherently because I took down his 1 base push and I fast expanded, therefore my macro puts me in the lead. My next step of action to deny scouting with Thor/Raven and get mass Banshees out because that's my play style. Fake mass Thor/Marine to force Immortal/Zealot and then go air.
The transition after you get your expansion is completely up to you to do with what you want. If you go for a quick 4 Rax Stim after expansion, you should be able to hold this push off decently and tech to MMMGV and play slightly ahead.
There's really nothing all in with getting a Thor after expansion...I'm really confused with what you're trying to say.
Here, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190
This may give you a better idea of what I'm trying to do with this certain opener myself.
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sorry for the grammar english is my 2nd language. And personally im a bio / air ( medivac/viking) player transitioning to mass thor in the late game so im not exacly sure how the banshee build works. The 1 flaw i can point out in your play style straight away is feedback, templar are a standard in almost every mid tvp game and a few feedbacks or even storms on your banshees with the help of stalkers basicly shuts them down, also void ray play by protoss is getting more and more popular, with the banshee not being able to shoot air to air there is almost nothing you can do about them.
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I like it, it works fairly well and is something new to do, because I definitely know what you are talking about when you say that the 1 rax FE isnt nearly as safe, I feel the 30 second delay is wayy worth it for the amount of marines you get with it.
Thanks for sharing,
Bonkerz
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On February 24 2011 03:24 Chrumchrum wrote:
sorry for the grammar english is my 2nd language. And personally im a bio / air ( medivac/viking) player transitioning to mass thor in the late game so im not exacly sure how the banshee build works. The 1 flaw i can point out in your play style straight away is feedback, templar are a standard in almost every mid tvp game and a few feedbacks or even storms on your banshees with the help of stalkers basicly shuts them down, also void ray play by protoss is getting more and more popular, with the banshee not being able to shoot air to air there is almost nothing you can do about them.
I don't mean to sound like an ass, but this is all discussed on the other thread. I've covered all the situations you've mentioned already, so if you'd like to read how I handle it, it's all in the OP there. I'd appreciate if you read it before you get too heavy on the criticism  Otherwise, it's always appreciated.
And don't worry too much about the grammar, I understand that speaking a non-native language can be difficult
On February 24 2011 03:25 Bonkerz wrote:
I like it, it works fairly well and is something new to do, because I definitely know what you are talking about when you say that the 1 rax FE isnt nearly as safe, I feel the 30 second delay is wayy worth it for the amount of marines you get with it.
Thanks for sharing,
Bonkerz
Glad you like it Hope it serves you well!
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I tried this strategy 3 times in a row now.
First game: Thor proxy rush = died immediacy.
Second game: A semi late banneling bust killed my 3 bunkers without problems. GG.
Third game: Protoss 4-gate, he focus fire down 1 bunker than run his troops straight into my main. GG.
I give the strategy a few more tries but it seems very vulnerable.
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On February 24 2011 04:02 MockHamill wrote:
I tried this strategy 3 times in a row now.
First game: Thor proxy rush = died immediacy.
Second game: A semi late banneling bust killed my 3 bunkers without problems. GG.
Third game: Protoss 4-gate, he focus fire down 1 bunker than run his troops straight into my main. GG.
I give the strategy a few more tries but it seems very vulnerable.
Like I said, this build really is flimsiest against Terran. Still....I feel that both the Thor rush and the 4 Gate can be both be held off with mass repair. I've crushed 4 Gates over and over again with ease using this opener.
With the baneling bust, you should have two walls, the bunkers and the top of the ramp. With the double wall, you should be able to hold off the bust easily, the worst that happens is you lose some of the SCVs at your natural. This will put you behind yes, but you should have eked out enough income from the natural at this point to have teched a bit. I recommend a hellion counter attack after the bust. Most zergs drone hard after one and you'll be in a good position to sneak in. I've come back from quite a few games in that manner.
Bunkers have the same amount of health as supply depots do, so they're not super sturdy against banelings. However, this can be remedied if you spread your bunkers out a bit so they are all not sharing splash damage. This way, you can still prevent speedling runbys.
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Against Zerg I think it is best to fly your barracks down and let them protect the bunkers, making a thicker wall. That way it will be much harder to baneling bust you. If the go Roach you can let them damage the barracks a little bit to buy you time, then lift them off and move them back.
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On February 24 2011 04:35 MockHamill wrote:
Against Zerg I think it is best to fly your barracks down and let them protect the bunkers, making a thicker wall. That way it will be much harder to baneling bust you. If the go Roach you can let them damage the barracks a little bit to buy you time, then lift them off and move them back.
I don't like using barracks to wall off because they're so easy to snipe by roaches, and addons are way too visible, so it's easy to scout your build that way if you want to do a mass marine stim push or something of that kind.
No, I personally prefer bunkers myself, but it's your choice of course =]
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You write in your TvT response, that you get a tank plus siege mode up before your opponents siegetanks arrive, although your refineries are more than a minute late? It would seem that he has ample time to shell your bunkers before you can respond in time.
Also stim timing hits way before you can get siege mode up. My stim timing push hits you at 5:50 and then only the terrans who went straight for siege tanks with 13+17 gas has one tank deployed.
Also you should time your Ebay earlier in case of banshee, because straight banshee tech will hit around 6:20.
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On February 24 2011 17:00 Thrombozyt wrote:
You write in your TvT response, that you get a tank plus siege mode up before your opponents siegetanks arrive, although your refineries are more than a minute late? It would seem that he has ample time to shell your bunkers before you can respond in time.
Also stim timing hits way before you can get siege mode up. My stim timing push hits you at 5:50 and then only the terrans who went straight for siege tanks with 13+17 gas has one tank deployed.
Also you should time your Ebay earlier in case of banshee, because straight banshee tech will hit around 6:20.
This is assuming he does a later siege contain with 3+ tanks. With the double gas after expansion, I can quickly get the gas I need to get my tech flowing out. The bunkers will get shelled possibly, but it's repairable damage.
Stim timing hits before siege is done researching, but the push doesn't arrive before the bunkers go up. I've used 2 Rax Stim expand many many times, it's one of my favorite openers in both TvP and TvT. A bunker or two almost always shuts it down.
And yeah, I'm assuming cloaked banshee, which can be a little bit later than that. Constant marine production out of 2 Barracks is sufficient enough to deal with the banshees. It's always a good idea to bank energy for scans during that timing as well.
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On February 24 2011 02:50 MockHamill wrote:
If you do this opener against Protoss and they go 4-gate warp prism into your main I doubt it is possible to have enough troops in time to deal with it.
If Protoss is going 4-gate + robo you have ample time to get your desired tech, be it stim+concussive, blue flame or siege. What's more troubling is a 3 gate robo. It's tricky because now you're worrying about an immortal bunker bust, as well as the possibility of a warp prism. The hardest counter to 1-2 rax FE's in my humble opinion is 3 gate robo where your first unit is a warp prism.
For this reason, if I scout anything but a 4-gate, or their own expansion, I've taken to putting up 3 turrets throughout my main, and 1 in my nat. This covers me from proxy stargates, DT's, warp prisms etc. It's a mineral sink, but balanced against the extra income of your fast extra base, your'e still coming out ahead.
Edit: I'm sure it's addressed in the OP, but unless the Protoss goes almost pure sentry, so long as you're fast with repair you can easily stop any attempt to bust your bunkers. Just make sure to hotkey a large group of SCV's at your natural.
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On February 24 2011 21:36 eluv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 02:50 MockHamill wrote:
If you do this opener against Protoss and they go 4-gate warp prism into your main I doubt it is possible to have enough troops in time to deal with it.
If Protoss is going 4-gate + robo you have ample time to get your desired tech, be it stim+concussive, blue flame or siege. What's more troubling is a 3 gate robo. It's tricky because now you're worrying about an immortal bunker bust, as well as the possibility of a warp prism. The hardest counter to 1-2 rax FE's in my humble opinion is 3 gate robo where your first unit is a warp prism. For this reason, if I scout anything but a 4-gate, or their own expansion, I've taken to putting up 3 turrets throughout my main, and 1 in my nat. This covers me from proxy stargates, DT's, warp prisms etc. It's a mineral sink, but balanced against the extra income of your fast extra base, your'e still coming out ahead. Edit: I'm sure it's addressed in the OP, but unless the Protoss goes almost pure sentry, so long as you're fast with repair you can easily stop any attempt to bust your bunkers. Just make sure to hotkey a large group of SCV's at your natural.
Yeah by far the toughest push to hold off is 3 Gate Robo with Immortals. This is just because if you are caught unprepared, he can blow through your bunkers in a matter of seconds. However if you have a watchtower and spot it coming, you can preemptively place SCVs to repair against it and focus fire the Immortals down.
I personally like to get a Thor/Raven combo out to deal with any early-mid game transition shenanigans. Mixed in with the marines + bunkers, you can deny scouting really well and hold off most early pressure pushes. The Thor makes you extra safe =]
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IMO just open like 1rax FE, add on 4 more rax and gas and bunker up. Morrow popularized this early in the beta. Build still works fine but is -slightly- weak to 1base colossus.
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I have a question... At what point in the match do you feel like your FE is starting to pay dividends? I usually feel behind most of the match if I FE and he comes to attack me.
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On February 24 2011 23:51 BONE wrote:
I have a question... At what point in the match do you feel like your FE is starting to pay dividends? I usually feel behind most of the match if I FE and he comes to attack me.
Once your first MULE starts mining from your Orbital at the nat, you notice a spike in income. So it doesn't take too long after your expansion goes up, so long as you maynard a few workers.
The bunkers are your investment to keep you alive during the period where you are weakest. As long as you defend any pushes without losing a significant amount of SCVs, you'll be ahead simply because your expansion was up faster and you can benefit from double MULEs.
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EPT
