EPTNot so much in actual build order differences, because I can see those, but in terms of your attitude as you play the build. is a 2rax FE with slower gas a more passive build? More economic?
[G] TvX 2 Rax 3 Bunker Fast Expand Opener - Page 6
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
Not so much in actual build order differences, because I can see those, but in terms of your attitude as you play the build. is a 2rax FE with slower gas a more passive build? More economic? | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On May 20 2011 09:54 antz0r wrote: Hi Synystyr, I'm also keen to see more zerg games with your strategy. I'm totally clueless in TvZ and mostly rely on my opponents mistakes to win the game so I'm hyper curious about this double expanding business and how the game flows in your TvZ when running this strat. I've been out of Starcraft for a bit...I don't know if I'll quite write a comprehensive guide on my TvZ play, but I can suppose I can always release a replay pack of it regardless ^^ It's a finicky build  On June 01 2011 13:00 Dhalphir wrote: My question for this build is how does it differ from a 2rax FE that gets gas at the standard timing of 13, for a fast tech lab on the first rax? Not so much in actual build order differences, because I can see those, but in terms of your attitude as you play the build. is a 2rax FE with slower gas a more passive build? More economic? 2 Rax FE with a Tech Lab has more options, but it's not as good for growth into higher tier techs than a naked 2 Rax FE. Both can pressure, but it's different kinds of pressure. Naked 2 Rax can push with 5 Marines or so and do relatively free damage and pick off a few units while a 2 Rax Tech Lab expand can be backed up with a Conc. shell push or a fast Stim timing push (which is what I favor personally) I prefer expanding with 2 naked barracks with bunkers if possible. It feels the absolute safest and I can run off of 4 geysers and tech very quickly and safely. Tech Lab expands are better for pressuring and having a more mobile standing ground force. | ||
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aaycumi
England265 Posts
Should instead figure out what scares you the most, go into vs comp game and see what the quickst you can make said problem and just prepare against that while getting a decent army size then expanding. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On June 02 2011 00:51 aaycumi wrote: Its just a waste by putting down three bunkers, you'll become to reliant on them as well. Should instead figure out what scares you the most, go into vs comp game and see what the quickst you can make said problem and just prepare against that while getting a decent army size then expanding. 300 minerals is a tiny investment to keep you COMPLETELY safe during the early game and makes it very easy for you to tech quickly and without having to worry about being crushed. Even better if you make it into the midgame unscathed and get a refund of 225 minerals. There are literally very, very few 1 base pushes that can break this and those that can come much, much later and by then your early expansion should have already kicked in. Also...I don't need to play against computers. I use this opener at a high Masters level and still swear by it, especially against Zerg and Protoss. Also a great generic FE opener against random players as well. | ||
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TheFrageN
5 Posts
Edit: I just tried the first game, which was against another Terran. Got some Thors, Tanks and Marines out, but got crushed. If you have time for it, here is a replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?1d2tw616jzgwl4h (I am called "Egern" in the game btw). Thanks. | ||
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JiSu
Korea (South)140 Posts
 Thanks for a nice write-up! | ||
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VisiO
United States9 Posts
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
On June 02 2011 01:28 Synystyr wrote: 300 minerals is a tiny investment to keep you COMPLETELY safe during the early game and makes it very easy for you to tech quickly and without having to worry about being crushed. Even better if you make it into the midgame unscathed and get a refund of 225 minerals. There are literally very, very few 1 base pushes that can break this and those that can come much, much later and by then your early expansion should have already kicked in. Also...I don't need to play against computers. I use this opener at a high Masters level and still swear by it, especially against Zerg and Protoss. Also a great generic FE opener against random players as well. The problem is that your opponent can see that and spend his 300 minerals on getting another CC/barracks/whatever and be ahead of you. It's a good opener for most players, but it has really obvious flaws imo, the main flaws being that you're blindly investing into a lot of defense and that you cannot put on any pressure for quite a while. It's a build that will work on the ladder if you are quite sure that you can win in a macro game, but it's not an extremely efficient build in my opinion, especially against a Zerg player as you can scout a RR coming from a mile away. | ||
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Kiaro
United States75 Posts
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
I do have some trouble with it in TvP because a Sentry or Stalker heavy 3-6 gate is difficult to out-repair. But its great if the P is teching or FEing. And of course the build is perfect for TvZ, because Bunkers are great vs all Hatch tech, and you're already walling anyways. | ||
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CooDu
Australia899 Posts
Very nice, thanks for a solid opener for a more casual player such as myself. | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On September 07 2011 06:17 KenDM wrote: Dear OPer, do you have any updates in agreement with the metagame nowadays? Are the same tactics and builds still viable? Hey, sorry to get back to you so late! I've been out of the game for the summer but I've just started up again recently so this is my take on things. I still use this opener in both TvZ and TvP. I prefer bio expands in TvT because marauders help you deal with early hellion pressure and expand more safely while also allowing you to have a mobile attack force. So, it's perfectly viable in TvZ and TvP still, and should still be post Patch 1.4. I think with the Warp Prism buff however, we can be a little more wary of drops that try to get around the bunkers. With Blink taking longer to research, Blink rushes will no longer hit the window of timing where you are weakest. GL! | ||
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Autofire2
Pakistan290 Posts
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Tuplex
80 Posts
Synystyr, what's this bio expand you speak of for TvT? I've seen in the streams a lot of Korean players applying early marauder pressure in TvT that seems VERY effective. Going up the ramp with 2 marauders and an SCV that early in the game, they almost always take out a couple of depots or add-ons. | ||
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bg451
United States40 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On September 17 2011 06:04 Autofire2 wrote: What maps can you still use this with? I've been out of it for awhile... Current Map Pool (Maps applicable are bolded): Xel'Naga Caverns (2) Abyssal Caverns (4) Antiga Shipyard (4) Backwater Gulch (4) Nerazim Crypt (4) Searing Crater (4) Shakuras Plateau (4) Tal'darim Altar LE (4) The Shattered Temple (4) Typhon Peaks (4) On September 25 2011 00:57 Tuplex wrote: I've been using this in some custom games and it's pretty solid. TvP, I go up to 5 rax with reactor starport after expanding, and TvZ I go marine/tank/medivac and once the second base is saturated add a second factory and start pumping out Thors. After a little more practice I'll take it to the ladder. Synystyr, what's this bio expand you speak of for TvT? I've seen in the streams a lot of Korean players applying early marauder pressure in TvT that seems VERY effective. Going up the ramp with 2 marauders and an SCV that early in the game, they almost always take out a couple of depots or add-ons. 2 Marauder Expand 10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Gas -> Pull SCVs off at 75 gas 15 OC 16 Marine -> Tech Lab after Marine -> 2 Marauders Push with Marine, Marauders and an SCV or two Expand at 400 minerals, restart mining gas Add infrastructure as needed Good against greedy tech builds like gas first builds or CC before Rax. Do not commit if there is a bunker. Aim to kill addons/depots or SCVs. Pick off marines and camp spawn points if possible. Do not lose units if you can afford to, prepare for Banshees if you scout this. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
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mousez
Australia94 Posts
I am a high diamond player that has been using this and it is extremely potent. Pluses:- Solid defence very quick, safe expansion when some protoss scout 2rax, they over react and build forge & cannons, allowing you to get further ahead. very strong on most maps very noob friendly, providing safe macro build Negatives:- Lack of early map control immobile defence I find it harder to secure third base. Tips that I have found: -its important to scout around the edges of your base for any proxy pylons that may bypass your defence. -first 25 gas should make a techlab with barracks and get an early stim pack. this allows you to chase down enemies. -getting marauders is key vs protoss to survive early gate pressure and blink stalker pressure -be wary of warp prism drops and nydus worms -if you scout a protoss being greedy and expanding super early, you can punish with the two rax marines -dont reccomend this vs terran as tanks can barrage your wall -three bunkers will not defend a large 6-8 gate attack with or 6gate with immortals without sufficient units behind -early drops will help regain you map control, allow scouting and increase your economic lead. -engineering bay is key after your three bunkers for the missile turret detection and anti air, start upgrades for your infantry as soon as possible. -in order to get double ups going, once you are 1-0 and armour is 75%, throw down second engineering bay and armory I completly reccomend this to newer terrans in especially the TvP match up. it allows you to secure a safe economic lead. Thanks for the awesome build order mousez | ||
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Eisenheim
France229 Posts
I have a question about the map pool. I've tried this Bo with your lists and i have a little problem with Searing Crater. When i spot on cross pos.(N-E/S-W or N-W/S-E)) or close aerial pos.(N-E/S-E or N-W/S-W) I put my 3 bunkers in a line (choke to choke) and take expo with rock. But when i'm in a close position, i don't know how to defend with my 3 bunkers, still take rock expo (hard to defend against roaches on rock) ? NB : Sry for my poor english >_< | ||
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