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I don't know about you guys, but I'm tired of all the all-ins that many players of my race tend to favor in this current stage of the game. While all-ins are an extremely viable and powerful strategy to have in your arsenal, continued usage of them tend to bring shorter, less interesting games than those that go into a solid lategame.
I want to remedy this by injecting an easy, friendly at all levels of skill, Fast Expand opener into the minds of Terrans that promotes a longer, macro style of play, similar to kcdc's 1 Gate FE vs Terran.
2 Barracks. 3 Bunkers. Millions of options to explore. Lets go.
Build Order: + Show Spoiler +The opener is very simple, and can transition into almost any style of play you prefer (albeit super fast rushes, derp). The build order can be tweaked to your own personal preference, but the one I've found to be most effective is this: 10 Depot 12 Barracks 14 Barracks (2) 16 Depot 15 Orbital Command ~22-24 Command Center -> Orbital when finished 25 Refinery x2 25 Depot (cut marines at ~24-25 until depot is finished. Should have 7 at this point.) 27 Bunker x3 And that's it. On maps with small chokes at the natural, you can place all three bunkers to completely wall yourself off from any run-bys or worker scouts. On maps with open naturals, I like to place the bunkers close to the expansion, to cover the mineral line from any attacks. Proper bunker placement for the FE
Strengths and Weaknesses: + Show Spoiler +By far, the most obvious advantage to this build is the macro advantage you gain by fast expanding. This allows you can keep up in worker counts with a Zerg and Protoss, who both have viable fast expand options against Terrans. If Zerg gets a free FE, why can't we? 1 Gate FE is also very, very powerful, so being able to keep up with their macro helps significantly going into the mid and late game. Many of you are probably very skeptical that you can effectively defend any early timing pushes with such an opener. Well, this opener CRUSHES 7 Roach Rush, Baneling Bust, 4 Gate, 3 Gate Robo and Stim Push with SCVs. I have the replays to back it up (check the end of the post.) Double barracks pumping out marines allows you to fill those 3 bunkers very very quickly, at 6:30, you have a 2nd Orbital Command finished with 12 marines in those bunkers and a few more behind that. This timing matches the timing of most of those timing pushes. As soon as the expansion finishes, make sure at least 8 workers are maynarded over to the natural. Make a separate control group for them and set auto repair on. Be ready to instantly pull your SCVs to repair the bunkers as soon as a push hits. This is absolutely key in holding off any rushes, but if done correctly you can hold the push off without letting a single bunker go down. The flexibility of this opener is amazing. If you opt for the double gas while the CC is building, you can transition into almost any style of play you'd like, whether it be Marine/Raven against Zerg, Mass Banshee/Marine against Protoss, or the good old Tank Vikingagainst Terran. The weakness is the lack of tech at the start that can make it difficult to deal with certain pushes, such as a DT rush or cloaked banshees. You need to be diligent with your scouting as always to know when you need to get an Engineering Bay down to put up key turrets. This also gives the enemy a chance to macro up to what they'd like to build, a prime example is Zerg freely teching to Mutas quicker than you'd like.
Against a Protoss: + Show Spoiler + When playing against Protoss, there are a few key things you want to be aware of. The topics I will be discussing are:
A. Chronoboosted Zealot on short rush distances B. 4 Warpgate Push C. 1 Gate Fast Expand D. Blink Stalker Rush E. DT Rush F. 3 Gate Robo Push G. 3 Gate Stargate Push
Situation A:
If you are a Terran that opts to not wall off you ramp against Protoss, like myself, you know that a couple Chronoboosted zealots can give you a hell of a hard time. With two barracks, you will be able to make the marines you need to deal with this, but not without good micro. What I like to do is kite the marine that is being chased by the zealot around in a circle so that the other marines can get free shots off without taking any damage. Do note that the AI of the zealot will change to a different marine if the marine you're controlling is farther away than another shooting marine, so be prepared to switch off. An emergency bunker at your ramp can help deal with this also, just salvage it after the zealots stop coming in and expand. Mismicros can lead to a lot of SCV deaths.
The first zealot arrives just as you have 2-3 marines and your second barracks in 75% of the way done. I recommend walling off to hard counter this, just because your going to be expanding and walling off elsewhere anyways, so a secondary wall off is nice to have.
Situation B:
4 Gates are countered almost passively by this build. There is nothing you need to do differently to defend against it. Just be aware of the timing of it and be extremely quick to pull your SCVs to repair your bunkers against this. It is also very easy to scout, so you'll have a lot of heads up about it. Just keep your scouting worker in they Protoss' base as long as possible, and if you see they are saving lots of Chrono boosts, then you know some kind of timing push is ahead.
The timing of the push arrives anywhere between ~6:15 and 7:30, depending on how good your opponent is. Keep your SCVs handy, because your opponent may just pull away instantly from the bunkers and warp in another round of units to try and break you.
Situation C:
In the case of a 1 Gate FE by your opponent, it means you are going toe to toe for the better macro. Like this opener, the 1 Gate FE has tons and tons of options to tech into once they've got that second Nexus running. You have to be good about your scouting, as you know they will be with a fast observer. Never stop making SCVs and gear yourself up for a long game by getting upgrades and looking for windows of opportunity to grab a third.
Some of the transitions you can expect from the Protoss are 6 Gate Pushes, fast templar tech with Gateway support, 2 Robo 4 Gate with a heavy focus on Colossi, or heavy Stargate play with Phoenix harass into Void Ray/Chargelot.
Situation D:
Blink stalkers are a bitch to deal with. They negate the fact that you even have a wall in by blinking right past your bunkers and getting into the mineral line of your natural to pick off SCVs. With a double wall in though, you do have the stalkers trapped inside the natural. If you picked MMM tech, then you may have marauders to deal with a push like this just fine. But if you went mass marine into banshees, then the stalkers will be able to kite your marines and blink away from any incoming damage. The best way I've found to deal with it is to have SCVs surround from the back and have your marines do as much damage as they can from the front. You will most likely hold the push off this way, but there is a high chance you will lose many SCVs and your natural also.
Blink Stalker timing is around the 7 minute mark and revolves around a 3 Gate build on double gas. Use your third set of energy to scan for this if you expect something is up.
Situation E:
There is a chance that the Twilight Council you scanned for turns out to only be there so that the Protoss can get a Dark Shrine. Unscouted, a DT Rush can really, really hurt if you don't have scans saved up. Luckily with two orbitals and a couple walls, you should have enough energy generating to pop scans when you need to while the DTs are trying to break through the bunkers. SCVs repairing those bunkers will really help stall in the mean time.
The best thing to do is to pool energy around the 7 minute mark in preperation for DTs that arrive around the 8-9 minute mark, and to prep an engineering bay for turrets. If you dealt with the DTs without many losses, I highly recommend getting a Raven before you push out again for the PDD and for the detection against any stray DTs along the rush distance that want to delay you as long as possible. Be wary that the Protoss may only send 1 DT at a time into your base to force as many scans as possible. Getting permanent detection will make your life that much easier.
Situation F:
3 Gate Robo can be a little tricky depending on how many Immortals are brought along with the push. Either way, your top priority is to focus fire those Immortals down ASAP with the marines in your bunkers. Bunker focus firing is a little different than usual, you have to actually press A and then click the target you want for the bunkered units to focus that target. The problem with this push is that the immortals make very quick work of the bunkers if you aren't prepared. Hopefully the tech path you chose will help take care of this. Units on high ground, such as the ledge in your base on LT can help you get free shots without those units taking damage.
The timing on this push is around 8-9 minutes I believe. If your opponent did go 3 Gate Robo, then expect Colossi in the near future.
Situation G:
Terran's worst nightmare against Protoss right now is a Gateway push with 2-3 Void Rays. Luckily, marines in bunkers get +1 range, so with that in mind, you can focus fire the void rays down while they are attacking the bunkers. This push is usually accompanied with a Zealot heavy force, since they spent most their gas on Void Rays. As long as you get the Void rays quickly, and are quick on the repair, your bunker line shouldn't be broken unless the VRs came in precharged =X
Against a Zerg + Show Spoiler +One of the great aspects of this opener is that to an unsuspecting Zerg, this may look like a 2 Rax All-in when initially scouted, and they may over-invest in lings or spines instead of droning up in preparation for a push that never happens, helping you eke out a macro advantage even earlier into the game. Zerg openers are a little more straight forward, so you can have a better idea of what to expect. The topics I will discuss are: A. 7 Roach Rush B. Baneling Bust C. Fast Third D. Hatch 14 Pool into Muta Harass Situation A:On maps with short rush distance, some Zergs like to do a Roach rush to try and end the game quickly. It is extremely important to scout this. Easy giveaway signs are an early gas being mined, no expansion at 15 and no ling speed being researched (you can tell by seeing if the Spawning Pool is jiggling to see if an upgrade is being researched). If this is the case, you will scout this before you start your expansion. Instead of expanding first, simply build the three bunkers first, and then expand. This nullifies any kind of roach rush, whether its 3, 5 or 7. It's a good idea to have SCVs nearby the bunkers around the 6-7 minute mark, even if they're idling. You know the Zerg is 1 basing, so all you need to do is hold off the push and then macro ahead, even if it costs you a little bit of economy early. A Roach Rush is much easier to hold off than a 4 Gate, so if you can do 4 Gate, you can do 7RR no problem. Situation B:This can come in two forms, 1 base or 2 base. With the 1 base baneling bust, the Zerg will only have enough banelings to break 1-2 bunkers down, and thats before your marines get the first few shots off to pick of them off. By the time the bunkers are broken, the number of lings trying to flood through into your natural will be very manageable with the amount of marines you have. And then you have your second wall :D This push comes around 5-7 minutes into the game, and can be scouted in a similar fashion to the 7RR, except that speed will be researching and there will be a few more lings than usual off one base. A 2 Base baneling bust is defended in a very similar manner, except that this time, your natural can be threatened to the point of destruction, and there may be enough banelings left over after taking the bunker wall down to breach your supply depot/barracks wall. Having a few hellions will nullify the majority of the force if you chose to go mech, which I favor in TvZ. In the case of a 2 Base BB, lift your natural up and try to use the SCVs mining there to block the ramp as much as possible so that the units behind it can snipe off as many speedlings and banelings as possible. Tanks are also your friend here. You can expect to see a push like this around the 10-11 minute mark, and be wary of more than one wave if they did some good damage with the first. Situation C:If a Zerg sees that you've bunkered up heavily and expanded, they may feel the pressure or the obligation to take a third. A general rule of thumb for Zergs is to try and stay one base ahead of a Terran. If this happens, you have a few timing windows available to you. You can prep for a massive two base timing push and hope to punish the Zerg for being greedy or droning too heavily, or you can play the shark and dip in and out of the Zerg's creep vision to scare them into making more units instead of drones to saturate the third while expanding behind your feigns. Keeping the macro advantage is extremely important against Zerg, because we know that going into a late game against a 300/200 Zerg army is not fun to deal with, especially if you can't support the units to deal with the dread Brood Lord to Ultralisk tech switch. A Zerg planning on taking a quick third will do so around the 8-9 minute mark, soon after Lair timing. Use an air unit to scout around for expos, or place marines at expansion locations early to get a heads up of when they may expand. Situation D:One of the most common strategies for ZvT is to 15 Hatch 14 Pool and tech for Muta/Speedling/Baneling. This usually means that when the Zerg's Spire finishes, 6-7 Mutas will begin morphing and you can expect to see those trying to pick off what they can in your base shortly after. Because of the fast expansion, you will be a little crunched for money at first to get the necessary air defences because of low saturation and paying the expo off. Muta timing can come anywhere between 7-10 minutes depending on how fast the Zerg wanted his Mutas, so keep an eye out on Lair timing and dont be afraid to cut a few units/SCVs to get the Ebay+Turrets or an Armory + Thor out, depending on your weapon of choice. Of course, you will have a decent amount of marines floating around as well, so use those. Be smart about stimming and be aware of Muta mobility to fly between your unprotected bases with ease.
Against a Terran + Show Spoiler +
Warning: This opener is flimsiest against Terran. While it works against early Bio pushes, it may not hold up as well against other openers. Take my advice with a grain of salt
TvT is one of the trickiest matchups out there. There are so many different openers and dynamics to it that makes matchup so extremely volatile. That being said, I feel like this opener can at least give you a decent economy early on with enough to defense to deal with most early pushes. A big mistake I've come across from players that play TvT are that they OVERVALUE positioning and micro. While it is extremely important to have good positioning, this matchup is all about the macro. If you manage to fast expand, come midgame, you will be a solid 40 supply ahead if you macro well. No amount of positioning will help you if I can make more vikings than you can.
The topics I will discuss here are:
A. 3 Rax Stim Timing Push B. Marine Tank Push C. 1-1-1 Hellion into Cloaked Banshee D. Fast Tank Viking E. 2 Factory 2 Port (iEchoic style)
Situation A:
On short rush distances, some players prefer to do a quick Stim push, before too many tanks with Siege are there to wreck Bio. If you opt to go factory with your 100 gas out of the two refineries, you will be able to just eke out a tank with siege nearly done when this push hits. The three bunkers will do tons of damage to the bio, and with repairs being made, you can stop the push right there if you're quick enough. If the push is a little later, but a little bigger, you should have a couple tanks with siege that will stop the push in its tracks.
If you opt for bio instead of tanks, you will have home field advantage in terms of unit placement and bunkers being repaired. Micro well here, with a few SCVs pulled if the situation calls for it, and you should be able to out macro the opponent with ease. This push hits anywhere between 6-8 minutes, depending on how large the opponent feels his force should be.
Situation B:
One of the most standard openings in TvT is to get a large ball of marines and a few tanks with siege, and then move out to contain your opponent. With this build, the map you play on is very dependent on how a push like this could turn out. Siege has superior range to your bunkers, so they can be picked away at from afar. However, when this push hits, if you went tanks, you will have at least one tank with siege. If you're on say, Lost Temple, you can actually place this tank on your ledge far out enough that you can hit the enemy's tanks that are hitting your bunkers, nullifying a lot of the force from this push.
However, on maps like Xel'naga Caverns, it is much easier for your opponent to tank out bunkers without being contested. You need to get starport tech out as soon as possible for either a viking or cloaked banshee to clean this up. The viking can spot for your tanks, while the banshee can fly in cloaked and hope to pick some tanks off. The problem is, you will most likely have to lift your CC off and try to break the contain off 1 base.
This timing hit around 7-8 minutes and can give you the hardest time if you don't have the tech already started to deal with it quickly.
Situation C:
1-1-1 is probably the single most popular opening in TvT. This allows the player access to almost all of the units in the tree and can push with a diverse mix of units. Hellions into cloaked banshee is fairly popular from this build. Your bunkers should be up before the first couple hellions arrive denying them access into your base and your mineral lines. The follow up can be scary if you don't prepare though.
You'll want to start an engineering bay around 6 minutes and make a few turrets around your base as soon as it's done so that you can take care of any cloaked banshees. You want to stay ahead of your opponent in macro in any way possible, so dumping 400 minerals into turrets won't hurt you as much as it'll hurt the 1 basing opponent who lost a banshee or two.
Situation D:
I personally don't know why people do this, but some players like to open 1-1-1 with a tank and viking as soon as possible. I just don't see this as a strong opener at all, as that viking is going to do nothing in the early game, and it's money that should be spend towards ground units to defend against any early bio pushes. Anyways, a fast tank viking build is going to get spotting more quickly, but their army will be crunched in numbers. You should be able to out macro a player who opens this way quite easily as they won't be able to do any damage to you with the small army they have.
The one thing I suppose this build has going for it, is that you can start a very early contain with 4 marines and a tank. They can rally one viking over to the contained area and do some spotting to pick off any stray units. You may be in trouble for a short amount of time if they pull this off correctly, but your macro should catch up very quickly and you can overpower the viking number and break the contain.
The first tank and marines usually siege in front to contain around the 6-7 minute mark.
Situation E:
2 Fact 2 Port is a very versatile opening that focuses on harass, and therefore will most likely bypass your bunkers, rather than try to do a bust. If you scout this build, I recommend you cut bunkers down to having either one or two to prevent drive-bys, depending on how comfortable you are.
The advantage you have with this opening against this build is that you have a much larger economic advantage. The 2 Fact 2 Port build relies on economic damage in order to stay even in terms of economy. Once scouted, you'll want to prepare for drops and have a mobile defensive force. Sim city + a couple turrets at your mineral lines will help mitigate damage. If the hellions only have a small avenue to attack your workers, it makes it much harder for them to do damage and for you to clean it up.
The best unit composition I've found to deal with Hellion + Air is Marauders with Concussive shells with a couple of Thors mixed in. Beware that you aren't quite as mobile and will take a little while for you to get Thors, so you need to rely on turrets as your AA, and marauders to clean up drops.
Replays + Show Spoiler +
As always, I can be reached on battle.net at Synystyr.193. I also stream during most evenings at http://www.livestream.com/Synystyr. Check it out!
Also, if you liked the opener and want a more in depth guide on how to use it against Protoss, please take a look at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190
All comments and feedback are welcomed! Hope you guys enjoy this and start to diversify your builds away from all-ins ^.-
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sounds like a nice opener, I like to FE and when i do i usually do 1rax 2rauder (with conc) 1 rine push and FE behind it (at 23 food) dunno if that is already an offical build but its what i do lol. I then transition into 4 rax 1 fact and go from there.
My problem with my FE is that its pretty open to a 4gate in close positions or fast voids, this 3 bunker FE sounds pretty safe, if a bit slower of a FE. I'll give it a crack tonight and let you know how it goes!
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if you're not getting gas, why not jus 1 rax fe? Gets you a quicker expo
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On January 20 2011 03:23 nYquench wrote: if you're not getting gas, why not jus 1 rax fe? Gets you a quicker expo
It's slower by maybe 30 seconds, but it gives you way more defence. It's way too hard to hold off such a large variety of early timing pushes with only half filled bunkers. The second rax is there to provide extra marines to fill said bunkers and make defending cake.
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Thanks a lot for this post, I've been using this build a lot, but I'll be able to make it more efficient now, thanks a lot man :D
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On January 20 2011 03:21 emythrel wrote: sounds like a nice opener, I like to FE and when i do i usually do 1rax 2rauder (with conc) 1 rine push and FE behind it (at 23 food) dunno if that is already an offical build but its what i do lol. I then transition into 4 rax 1 fact and go from there.
My problem with my FE is that its pretty open to a 4gate in close positions or fast voids, this 3 bunker FE sounds pretty safe, if a bit slower of a FE. I'll give it a crack tonight and let you know how it goes!
Sounds kinda like the Zatic Build
Very good opener vs Toss :D Hope this one works out for you as well!
On January 20 2011 03:26 Bluedraqy wrote: Thanks a lot for this post, I've been using this build a lot, but I'll be able to make it more efficient now, thanks a lot man :D
No problem Anything to see the metagame stray away from allins xD
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idk I feel like a gasless 1 rax fe would better seve you if you're already throwing down bunkers but that's just me...bro
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idk I feel like a gasless 1 rax fe would better seve you if you're already throwing down bunkers but that's just me...bro
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Actually, I think against a marine/tank push off 1 base in TvT, you're better off transitioning into Marine/Marauder since some number of marauders will demolish tanks. In fact, you can reactor expand into a single bunker and you should be able to field more than enough against a fast tank push. Of course you won't actually have many if any tanks or vikings to deal with the fast push(1 tank while siege is researching) but he won't have the numbers you have in infantry.
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On January 20 2011 04:00 Antisocialmunky wrote: Actually, I think against a marine/tank push off 1 base in TvT, you're better off transitioning into Marine/Marauder since some number of marauders will demolish tanks. In fact, you can reactor expand into a single bunker and you should be able to field more than enough against a fast tank push. Of course you won't actually have many if any tanks or vikings to deal with the fast push(1 tank while siege is researching) but he won't have the numbers you have in infantry.
This is very true. This opening is definitely weakest in TvT, but by far yields the best results. I'll have to try opening heavy bio instead. Not a bad idea :D
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Terran has to be a lot more reactionary, and you cant generalize a FE for all maps vs all races + their indificudal openings. Often time you will see a 1barrack FE being better, but it all comes down to map. I think you should have a race and map depended build.
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On January 20 2011 04:15 Hider wrote: Terran has to be a lot more reactionary, and you cant generalize a FE for all maps vs all races + their indificudal openings. Often time you will see a 1barrack FE being better, but it all comes down to map. I think you should have a race and map depended build.
indificudal? Individual?
I know this is rather generalized, but for the most part, you can pull this off on most the maps in the Blizzard map pool. Other maps are more effective than other, but this is by no means a bad opener. It allows you to grab a relatively quick expansion with sufficient defense. I've had my fair share of 1 Rax FEs, and they do hold off a lot of pushes, but I've found 2 Rax FE to be much more stable. This is just a personal opinion and experience however and of course you're free to do whatever you want
That being said, this is just more of a tutorial of a good way to get yourself into a macro style game. That's all I want to get across ^.-
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Updated! Pictures and replays are now included, hopefully makes for a better discussion and understanding for you guys Enjoy!
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eh, its not really even as good as kawaiirice's gasless 1 rax cc quick 4 rax build back mid-> late beta, simply because it is trying to be a macro build but failing to really give you a nice balance between applying pressure and strengthening your economy. I would love to see someone doing this build against me as any race, as I would feel completely safe.
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If you are going to include replays of your build, at least do them against players of equal skill. Showing one-sided replays can be helpful at times, but when showing off a "new" build you should probably try to prove its viability in the replays, rather than beating someone less skilled; you could have done that with any build. Also, to further help prove, its viability include more replays than just 2 per section, one replay doesn't really help much.
(directed at the TvP portion, maybe the other parts too but I didn't take a look at the other replays)
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On January 21 2011 10:04 badcop wrote: If you are going to include replays of your build, at least do them against players of equal skill. Showing one-sided replays can be helpful at times, but when showing off a "new" build you should probably try to prove its viability in the replays, rather than beating someone less skilled; you could have done that with any build. Also, to further help prove, its viability include more replays than just 2 per section, one replay doesn't really help much.
(directed at the TvP portion, maybe the other parts too but I didn't take a look at the other replays)
Yeah the TvP one was pretty awful I know. I have mostly 1 Rax FEs with that build against competent players...I can link you to a few if you'd like for those, but with this thread, I'm trying to promote a 2 Rax FE instead
I'm a little low in the replay number simply because I haven't played a huge number of games. Like my last thread though, I'll constantly be adding on more and more as time goes on. No worries
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How do you feel about abusable back doors on maps such as Blistering Sands and Jungle Basin when dealing with an early pressure build TvP? do you just build extra bunkers there or do you modify your build in these situations?
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On January 21 2011 10:40 wo1fwood wrote: How do you feel about abusable back doors on maps such as Blistering Sands and Jungle Basin when dealing with an early pressure build TvP? do you just build extra bunkers there or do you modify your build in these situations?
For Jungle Basin, I bunker my ramp up and keep one marine at the rocks and one patrolling the outside of the ledge near my natural. This gives me a heads up of any proxy pylons or early pressure. If I scout lots of chronoboosts saved up, I throw one bunker behind the rocks to dishearten any attempts to break them.
Blistering is very much the same, minus the patrolling marines, but I automatically put a bunker at the rocks instead of waiting to scout, only because those rocks will 100% be attacked, where as in Jungle Basin, chances are a little slimmer and you have a larger window to scout for it. After a certain point in your teching, the bunkers no longer provide the same sense of security as in the early game, and whatever route of tech you chose at that point should defend you in the mid game.
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nice...this is a better opener to use than 1 rax imo...then use the banshee marine raven you've posted before...thanks i had a lot of success with it...
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the more you scout the less bunkers you need = faster CC time.
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Have you tried 3 Bunker Contain with this instead :-p? Instead of building at your natural, build at his.
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@antisocialmunkey Thats what i thought this build would be about lol.
@OP: This is a great build because i can quickly and safely tech to cloaked banshees (or vikings vs stargate) to combats 4gate, 2gate robo pushes, 3gate robo pushes, void ray rushes, and i get an ebay after my factory goes down to get turrets against dts. Also against 1gate fe into 6gate push or high templar tech i can harass with cloaked banshees and abuse the lack of detection. Ill try to get some replays for you when i can get to my computer.
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On January 21 2011 11:13 SEA_Syntax wrote: nice...this is a better opener to use than 1 rax imo...then use the banshee marine raven you've posted before...thanks i had a lot of success with it...
Glad you enjoy them!
On January 21 2011 11:15 Antisocialmunky wrote: Have you tried 3 Bunker Contain with this instead :-p? Instead of building at your natural, build at his.
Hahaha I actually didn't think of that xD. Sounds like fun! I might have to try that lololol.
On January 21 2011 13:07 heyyouyesyou wrote: @antisocialmunkey Thats what i thought this build would be about lol.
@OP: This is a great build because i can quickly and safely tech to cloaked banshees (or vikings vs stargate) to combats 4gate, 2gate robo pushes, 3gate robo pushes, void ray rushes, and i get an ebay after my factory goes down to get turrets against dts. Also against 1gate fe into 6gate push or high templar tech i can harass with cloaked banshees and abuse the lack of detection. Ill try to get some replays for you when i can get to my computer.
Awesome I'd love to see what you've done. Glad it works to some degree haha. Keep it up.
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Do you really make three bunkers no matter what? I feel quite safe going 1 rax no gas fe into 4 rax with stim asap vs protoss with 2 bunkers tops on most maps without retardedly open naturals. (read: xelnaga, blistering, delta)
This definitely sounds like it will be slower expo than 1gate and includes zero pressure.
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This build is really nothing new, but thanks for laying it out for the newer players in the forum.
2 rax FE is very viable vs. Z, which was pioneered by Marine King (according to Tastosis). You can feign early pressure, forcing lings, while expanding yourself.
1 rax FE in TvT has also been very common in the GSL. MKP opened 2 rax (no gas) vs. Nada on LT in GSL4, he actually all-in'd open seeing the tech lab on the barracks but I would have expected him to expand behind the 2rax had the attack not worked.
1 rax FE vs. protoss has also been known for a while, the main difficulties are holding off 4gates and gateway rushes with immortals that chew through bunkers, as you mentioned.
Since all these FE builds have been known for a while, the only new parts to discuss are:
1) 1 rax FE vs. 2 rax FE. More initial defense versus slightly delayed eco. Interesting concept, but actually vs. Z and T, 2 rax opening is actually AGGRESSIVE. So you could really poke a bit with your mass of marines which would make your own FE safer too. If you are purely defending, then 1 rax FE is actually better because you get faster econ - I'm not sure exactly where the breakpoint is, but I'm guessing that most of the attacks you mentioned (esp. TvP) actually hit AFTER the time where the 1rax FE build outperforms the 2rax FE build due to faster eco. So in those situations, you'd actually have more units than a 2rax FE opener. But as you mentioned, the difference is slight, so it might not have a huge effect. Thus, all of the all-ins that you mentioned can usually be held off with a 1 rax FE (except the super early rushes where going 2nd rax before CC instead of the other way round gives you more units at the attack timing). Why not go for the extra safety with 2 rax then? Leads to my next point...
2) Your build is too defensive. It presumes that your opponent will all-in you. If he does not, and macros up instead, you will be behind. For example, 2 rax FE will be behind 1 rax FE in TvT, unless you pressure with your early marines. Your 3 bunkers make the situation even worse. With 300 extra minerals, you opponent could double expand, like what MVP did in GSL4 (MVP won). Therefore, you really need to be actively scouting to see whether your opponent is going to out-macro your macro build.
Conclusion: Pros: very safe build against early attacks, excellent eco going into mid-game, great for lower level players Cons: can get outmacroed if scouted
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On January 21 2011 13:59 Pokebunny wrote: Do you really make three bunkers no matter what? I feel quite safe going 1 rax no gas fe into 4 rax with stim asap vs protoss with 2 bunkers tops on most maps without retardedly open naturals. (read: xelnaga, blistering, delta)
This definitely sounds like it will be slower expo than 1gate and includes zero pressure.
Yeah, I've just personally found this opening to be very safe to macro behind. Other than scouting with a marine or two, I don't apply pressure. It could adapted to apply pressure though, (7 min mark, scout 1 Gate FE, push in with 15-20 marines after salvaging bunkers).
My own style has me playing for a huge 2 base push with banshee/marine/raven while grabbing a third behind that and throwing down a Fusion Core for a BC transition. I haven't actually timed it against a 1 Gate FE, but it can't be any slower than 20 seconds.
I could be overcommitting to the bunkers for defence, but I feel better safe than sorry. It's really nice to have that complete wall off during a 4 Gate so they don't just walk right through it. Worst situation, I just salvage the bunkers and use the reclaimed minerals towards tech/army.
On January 21 2011 15:16 Daniel C wrote: This build is really nothing new, but thanks for laying it out for the newer players in the forum.
2 rax FE is very viable vs. Z, which was pioneered by Marine King (according to Tastosis). You can feign early pressure, forcing lings, while expanding yourself.
1 rax FE in TvT has also been very common in the GSL. MKP opened 2 rax (no gas) vs. Nada on LT in GSL4, he actually all-in'd open seeing the tech lab on the barracks but I would have expected him to expand behind the 2rax had the attack not worked.
1 rax FE vs. protoss has also been known for a while, the main difficulties are holding off 4gates and gateway rushes with immortals that chew through bunkers, as you mentioned.
Since all these FE builds have been known for a while, the only new parts to discuss are:
1) 1 rax FE vs. 2 rax FE. More initial defense versus slightly delayed eco. Interesting concept, but actually vs. Z and T, 2 rax opening is actually AGGRESSIVE. So you could really poke a bit with your mass of marines which would make your own FE safer too. If you are purely defending, then 1 rax FE is actually better because you get faster econ - I'm not sure exactly where the breakpoint is, but I'm guessing that most of the attacks you mentioned (esp. TvP) actually hit AFTER the time where the 1rax FE build outperforms the 2rax FE build due to faster eco. So in those situations, you'd actually have more units than a 2rax FE opener. But as you mentioned, the difference is slight, so it might not have a huge effect. Thus, all of the all-ins that you mentioned can usually be held off with a 1 rax FE (except the super early rushes where going 2nd rax before CC instead of the other way round gives you more units at the attack timing). Why not go for the extra safety with 2 rax then? Leads to my next point...
2) Your build is too defensive. It presumes that your opponent will all-in you. If he does not, and macros up instead, you will be behind. For example, 2 rax FE will be behind 1 rax FE in TvT, unless you pressure with your early marines. Your 3 bunkers make the situation even worse. With 300 extra minerals, you opponent could double expand, like what MVP did in GSL4 (MVP won). Therefore, you really need to be actively scouting to see whether your opponent is going to out-macro your macro build.
Conclusion: Pros: very safe build against early attacks, excellent eco going into mid-game, great for lower level players Cons: can get outmacroed if scouted
First off, thanks for an excellent analysis of this build TL needs more quality posts like this. I consider this a very noob friendly opener for those who aren't really used to fast expanding. I know it's nothing new but I want to be an advocate of macro style games, rather than add to the countless 1 base all-ins out there.
I really like the points you make for 1 Rad FE vs 2 Rax FE. With my current level of play, I feel much more confident defending with a 2 Rax rather than a 1 Rax opener, I've played many 1 Rax openers but lost quite a few games for not having the skill and micro required to defend a 1 Rax FE successfully. I really just enjoy the strong sense of security I have in the early game, knowing I can go into the midgame with a very strong economy. If an opponent does a 1 base push, I know for a fact that I can hold it off and be very ahead after that, allowing me to crush my opponent with a very decisive macro lead.
I do realize the opener is very defensive, and that's a style that I like to play. It can easily be adapted to something a little more aggressive, you don't have to keep your marines in those bunkers at all times, but instead do a soft poke with 15ish marines against a Zerg who might feel too confident and drone too hard.
I can agree that this opening is weakest in TvT. A Terran who scouts this may go ahead and double expand. On my side though, I should be ready to expect this and scout diligently for it. They are going for just as large a risk to do that as I am, and I may be in just to right position to punish a greedy move like that with a quick drop or marine push.
If an opponent did 1 Rax FE vs my 2 Rax FE, then I would definetely feel the pressure of being behind, so I'd opt for an early contain with tanks/marines and grab a third behind that. Contains in TvT have worked wonders for me and since I concentrate so heavily on vikings, I can snipe most of the drops I have incoming. Again, this is just my personal style of play and it was something I wanteed to share with the TL community. Thanks again for such a wondering post
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Interesting. I was strugling myself to get an early expo against protoss without being weak for a 2 minuts window, guess I just didn't thought about putting down 3 bunkers =P.
How would you go on a mapa like xel'naga caverns? It seems to be more dificult to secure your FE against e.g. 4 gate rush.
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On January 22 2011 00:30 Autunno wrote: Interesting. I was strugling myself to get an early expo against protoss without being weak for a 2 minuts window, guess I just didn't thought about putting down 3 bunkers =P.
How would you go on a mapa like xel'naga caverns? It seems to be more dificult to secure your FE against e.g. 4 gate rush.
Yeah I've found it's next to impossible to defend a 4 Gate on open naturals, so I choose to opt out of Bunker FEing on maps such as that. It can be done if you keep the three bunkers very close to each other, almost touching the command center to cover most of the area, but instead I prefer a different style of 2 Rax FE
10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Gas 15 Orbital 16 Depot Tech Lab on Barracks after first marine Marine + Stim after Tech Lab finishes Build a 2nd Barracks for marines, use tech lab rax for marauders Conc. Shells after Stim
This allows you to either do a Stim Timing push on the Toss at about 6:45 into the game with about 5 marauders and 5 marines. It does leave you very open to a counter attack if it is held off however, so you opt to just use that as a mobile defense force instead. Less sturdy than bunkers against a good 4 Gate, but it does the trick if you have good micro on maps with open naturals.
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On January 22 2011 00:42 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 00:30 Autunno wrote: Interesting. I was strugling myself to get an early expo against protoss without being weak for a 2 minuts window, guess I just didn't thought about putting down 3 bunkers =P.
How would you go on a mapa like xel'naga caverns? It seems to be more dificult to secure your FE against e.g. 4 gate rush. Yeah I've found it's next to impossible to defend a 4 Gate on open naturals, so I choose to opt out of Bunker FEing on maps such as that. It can be done if you keep the three bunkers very close to each other, almost touching the command center to cover most of the area, but instead I prefer a different style of 2 Rax FE 10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Gas 15 Orbital 16 Depot Tech Lab on Barracks after first marine Marine + Stim after Tech Lab finishes Build a 2nd Barracks for marines, use tech lab rax for marauders Conc. Shells after Stim This allows you to either do a Stim Timing push on the Toss at about 6:45 into the game with about 5 marauders and 5 marines. It does leave you very open to a counter attack if it is held off however, so you opt to just use that as a mobile defense force instead. Less sturdy than bunkers against a good 4 Gate, but it does the trick if you have good micro on maps with open naturals.
What I like about the build you just posted is that you don't commit yourself to too many production facilities to get this reasonable ammout of units out (which allows you to sort of FE) while having a force that is good enough to fend off early rushes.
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I am a 2500 Plat (Division Rank 1) and just tried this build on the ladder.
Game 1 - Lost Temple - TvZ (WIN) Game 2 - Lost Temple - TvZ (WIN)
Normally I'm the type of player that upon scouting a fast exspand I just go and kill it. Job done.
BUT - This FE build is awesome! No more boring 10 min games for me. :D
Side note: Whats with battle net putting me against 2 Zergs on the same map in a row? these seems to be a reacuring theme.
Edit: I went 1 Rax FE then thru down 2 more Rax as soon as I could aford it after the FE.
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You can actually do the build:
10 supply 12rax 14rax 15OC, 15 marine
Instead of
10 supply 12rax 15OC, 15 marine 15/16 rax
And have your 2nd rax much faster. The advantage to this is that in TvT, it straight-up gets you a win if you send 2-3 scvs and micro 5 marines well if they don't bunker, in TvZ, allows a lot of pressure, and in TvP, is much safer. If you want an example, check out Foxer v Rainbow on Delta Quadrant in GSL 3, I think? May have been GSL2.
Is there any reason you wouldn't opt for the faster 2nd rax?
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On January 22 2011 03:25 iEchoic wrote: You can actually do the build:
10 supply 12rax 14rax 15OC, 15 marine
Instead of
10 supply 12rax 15OC, 15 marine 15/16 rax
And have your 2nd rax much faster. The advantage to this is that in TvT, it straight-up gets you a win if you send 2-3 scvs and micro 5 marines well if they don't bunker, in TvZ, allows a lot of pressure, and in TvP, is much safer. If you want an example, check out Foxer v Rainbow on Delta Quadrant in GSL 3, I think? May have been GSL2.
Is there any reason you wouldn't opt for the faster 2nd rax?
I prefer 12/15 Rax over 12/14 Rax simply because it's a little more economically friendly. It doesn't require cutting an SCV, or having to pull another separate SCV off the mineral line to build it. I do understand the strengths of opening with a 12/14 Rax, especially with the amount of early pressure you can deal and the mind games you can with it, but I've personally found 12/15 Rax to be a little more solid for the defensive play style that I favor.
Some games I do go 12/14 Rax though and do a 5 marine push which I expand behind, and it can cause a fair bit of chaos to an unsuspecting Zerg if done correctly, giving you a nice economic lead. However it does leave you open to counter attacks, which I've had happen many times as well =[
I haven't actually tried a 12/14 Rax push in TvT like you mentioned....that actually sounds extremely powerful and I will absolutely have to give that a shot! Thanks!
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This is the kind of build I was looking for to transition to 4staports in tvp; whereas, before I would have to get my expo up much later than toss to use my banshees.
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A strategy forum post with Antisocialmunky and Synystyr is a strategy forum post that I will actually read. If you remember, Synystyr, I posted some replays in your banshee build thread. And I still love marine/raven in TvZ.
Anyway. This build certainly seems to work in all the ways you describe, I'm just wondering where the advantage in using it is. It seems like in each matchup you could use a slightly more specialized build to accomplish the same thing a bit quicker. Like for example, in TvP you can 1 rax FE just as safely. Or in TvZ you can 12/14 rax, as has been mentioned, and be able to expand behind it while pressuring.
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On January 22 2011 03:58 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 03:25 iEchoic wrote: You can actually do the build:
10 supply 12rax 14rax 15OC, 15 marine
Instead of
10 supply 12rax 15OC, 15 marine 15/16 rax
And have your 2nd rax much faster. The advantage to this is that in TvT, it straight-up gets you a win if you send 2-3 scvs and micro 5 marines well if they don't bunker, in TvZ, allows a lot of pressure, and in TvP, is much safer. If you want an example, check out Foxer v Rainbow on Delta Quadrant in GSL 3, I think? May have been GSL2.
Is there any reason you wouldn't opt for the faster 2nd rax? I prefer 12/15 Rax over 12/14 Rax simply because it's a little more economically friendly. It doesn't require cutting an SCV, or having to pull another separate SCV off the mineral line to build it. I do understand the strengths of opening with a 12/14 Rax, especially with the amount of early pressure you can deal and the mind games you can with it, but I've personally found 12/15 Rax to be a little more solid for the defensive play style that I favor. Some games I do go 12/14 Rax though and do a 5 marine push which I expand behind, and it can cause a fair bit of chaos to an unsuspecting Zerg if done correctly, giving you a nice economic lead. However it does leave you open to counter attacks, which I've had happen many times as well =[ I haven't actually tried a 12/14 Rax push in TvT like you mentioned....that actually sounds extremely powerful and I will absolutely have to give that a shot! Thanks!
Well, 12/14 rax isn't any economically worse. You don't need to cut a SCV, and you do need to pull the SCV off the line faster, but the total amount of resources is no different because the total build time is the same (that SCV will also go mine faster).
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On January 22 2011 05:40 w_Ender_w wrote: A strategy forum post with Antisocialmunky and Synystyr is a strategy forum post that I will actually read. If you remember, Synystyr, I posted some replays in your banshee build thread. And I still love marine/raven in TvZ.
Anyway. This build certainly seems to work in all the ways you describe, I'm just wondering where the advantage in using it is. It seems like in each matchup you could use a slightly more specialized build to accomplish the same thing a bit quicker. Like for example, in TvP you can 1 rax FE just as safely. Or in TvZ you can 12/14 rax, as has been mentioned, and be able to expand behind it while pressuring.
The advantage in this is getting a second base up in a quick manner with optimal defence against most of the early 1 base pushes out there. I've kind of dropped 1 Rax FE in TvP simply because it's too hard to defend a 4 Gate with that in my personal experiences. In TvZ, if I opt for pressure with a 12/14 Rax, I find myself a little low on defence if my opponent was ready with an overwhelming amount of lings and susceptible to a counter attack. I tend to play defensively, so this type of opener suits my style, but of course it can be modified to fit anyone else's style as as well.
On January 22 2011 05:41 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 03:58 Synystyr wrote:On January 22 2011 03:25 iEchoic wrote: You can actually do the build:
10 supply 12rax 14rax 15OC, 15 marine
Instead of
10 supply 12rax 15OC, 15 marine 15/16 rax
And have your 2nd rax much faster. The advantage to this is that in TvT, it straight-up gets you a win if you send 2-3 scvs and micro 5 marines well if they don't bunker, in TvZ, allows a lot of pressure, and in TvP, is much safer. If you want an example, check out Foxer v Rainbow on Delta Quadrant in GSL 3, I think? May have been GSL2.
Is there any reason you wouldn't opt for the faster 2nd rax? I prefer 12/15 Rax over 12/14 Rax simply because it's a little more economically friendly. It doesn't require cutting an SCV, or having to pull another separate SCV off the mineral line to build it. I do understand the strengths of opening with a 12/14 Rax, especially with the amount of early pressure you can deal and the mind games you can with it, but I've personally found 12/15 Rax to be a little more solid for the defensive play style that I favor. Some games I do go 12/14 Rax though and do a 5 marine push which I expand behind, and it can cause a fair bit of chaos to an unsuspecting Zerg if done correctly, giving you a nice economic lead. However it does leave you open to counter attacks, which I've had happen many times as well =[ I haven't actually tried a 12/14 Rax push in TvT like you mentioned....that actually sounds extremely powerful and I will absolutely have to give that a shot! Thanks! Well, 12/14 rax isn't any economically worse. You don't need to cut a SCV, and you do need to pull the SCV off the line faster, but the total amount of resources is no different because the total build time is the same (that SCV will also go mine faster).
I suppose you bring up a valid point. I play defensively, so this opener flows more smoothly for me....I don't have super great micro that I can push with marines and keep my base maintained I'll give 12/14 Rax expand a shot and get back to you guys on that
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On January 22 2011 05:40 w_Ender_w wrote: A strategy forum post with Antisocialmunky and Synystyr is a strategy forum post that I will actually read. If you remember, Synystyr, I posted some replays in your banshee build thread. And I still love marine/raven in TvZ.
Anyway. This build certainly seems to work in all the ways you describe, I'm just wondering where the advantage in using it is. It seems like in each matchup you could use a slightly more specialized build to accomplish the same thing a bit quicker. Like for example, in TvP you can 1 rax FE just as safely. Or in TvZ you can 12/14 rax, as has been mentioned, and be able to expand behind it while pressuring.
Thanks
@Synyster: The thing that bugs me about this opening is that it feels like you're not securing enough of an advantage. I think this would be superior as a 1 rax FE. To this end, have you thought about a 1 Rax expand into 3 Bunkers except you fill each bunker with 1/2 marines to trick your opponent?
Alternatively have you thought of 1 rax -> marines, get 1 fast gas(relatively), get a tech lab + conc, keep 1 guy in, and then pump out marauders for a little bit (to fill up the extra room) before returning to marines after you get a 2nd rax?
Could be something like: 12 Rax 15 OC 16 Depot CC Ref -> Tech Lab + 2-3 marauders + Conc Should have 4 marines when you get marauders out.
The presence of marauders could also trick your opponent to think you are doing some sort of big 2 base bio push instead or something I guess and while marines have high DPS, marauders have equally good DPS vs armored without as much waste to +1 armor. Plus getting slow with at 7 range is pretty lol.
Interestingly enough, I think you can actually get a faster CC off a 1 rax CC by supply dropping instead of muling with the first 50 energy. I'm gonna test that in YABOT right now.
Edit: Its not faster, you just can avoid blocking yourself by dropping it at 18 supply if you go rax OC CC. Which means you get a CC down faster by 20 seconds and you make the ~150 you lost on the mule after 8 SCVs from that CC :D.
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Thanks OP for a wonderful post, very thorough and it has helped me improve my game alot. Lets me focus on learning to macro better without getting killed half the time to early pushes. And i can finally beat protoss, wow.
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Canada13372 Posts
Interesting build the fact that you can salvage bunkers means you can salvage the 3 and add 2 more rax after the salvage while keeping up on macro. Though perhaps you should only incorporate the bunkers after scouting sice as pokebunny wrote, 4 rax fast stim off 1 rax fe is safe against a LOT of P builds.
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On February 02 2011 00:12 ZeromuS wrote: Interesting build the fact that you can salvage bunkers means you can salvage the 3 and add 2 more rax after the salvage while keeping up on macro. Though perhaps you should only incorporate the bunkers after scouting sice as pokebunny wrote, 4 rax fast stim off 1 rax fe is safe against a LOT of P builds.
Well I prefer heavy, heavy air play against Protoss, so the bunkers hold off most aggression, allowing me to tech safely. I don't want to commit myself into going bio with 4 Rax Stim, so this opener suits me much better. However, if you do prefer a heavy bio play style against Protoss, then that type of FE works much better than this one does. I personally just like how this opener gives you a great econ advantage and takes down 4 Gate soooo easily.
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This is great. I was actually thinking about starting a thread asking for details and/or replays on the 2-rax FE, since I haven't been liking my 1-base tank push in TvT. Low and behold, there's one right here!
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personally i dont think investing in three bunkers early would be such a good idea, unless they were one basing.
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Build is old like hell, btw, but ok good build, nothing to do with synyster.
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On February 02 2011 01:53 Moosy wrote: personally i dont think investing in three bunkers early would be such a good idea, unless they were one basing.
I personally think it's a small investment to keep an expo running and getting an early econ lead. You can always salvage the bunkers after too to get your money back. It's a win win situation
On February 02 2011 02:14 Pestilence wrote: Build is old like hell, btw, but ok good build, nothing to do with synyster.
I never put my name on it Just advocating it so that we can get more macro based games, rather than constant 1 base allins.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
For tvt at least, this feels like a build that is neither here or there. You open with a passive 2 rax that won't pressure and your tech is as delayed as possible. I don't think you can hold off a well executed reactor rine tank viking/medivac push if you don't even leave your base to intercept the tanks.
If you disagree, I'd be happy to play some games with you to see if you can hold the push.
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it's not true that it will degenerate to tank/viking with that opening. a suggestion is producing tons of barracks units and camp them outside your base or his base, and get ready to surround his inevitable tank push (if he went tank-ish type play)
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On February 02 2011 02:41 infinity21 wrote: For tvt at least, this feels like a build that is neither here or there. You open with a passive 2 rax that won't pressure and your tech is as delayed as possible. I don't think you can hold off a well executed reactor rine tank viking/medivac push if you don't even leave your base to intercept the tanks.
If you disagree, I'd be happy to play some games with you to see if you can hold the push.
I guess I didnt mention this, but I do a 7 Marine-3 SCV push right as my expansion is starting and see if I can't do a little damage early on. Depending on my transition and scouting, I could possibly hold off an early 1 base push. I can't be sure though of course....I'd love to practice if you'd like to play a few games. Feel free to add me at Synystyr.193
On February 02 2011 03:38 threehundred wrote: it's not true that it will degenerate to tank/viking with that opening. a suggestion is producing tons of barracks units and camp them outside your base or his base, and get ready to surround his inevitable tank push (if he went tank-ish type play)
I suppose that would work I do prefer bio play over tank/viking in TvT, I'm just so bad at the MU in general. Hopefully I'll learn how to break tank lines with bio one day :D From most of the TvTs I've played anyways, Tank/Viking always seems to be the go-to after the early game pushes so yeah....maybe it's just me >_<
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this actually seems pretty awesome, my only current build to really holding off the 4 wp is 3 rax or putting bunkers up. Im big on "2 bunkers is 200 minerals gone, now" even through u can get em back later.
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I prefer 12 Rax 14 Rax 15 OC with marine delayed ~5 seconds. Then I'll keep making rines and scvs constantly, expand when possible. Send first 4-5 rines to your opponent's base, harass around, don't lose them. If they're playing aggressive then pull these 4 back and play defensive (with a few bunkers as you suggest), else I'll keep sending rines to them and annoying them. I'll drop 1 bunker at base and retreat when I need to. Gives a nice blend of early game aggression with a nice eco oriented opening. Just don't take your gas too late, otherwise you'll have a whole mess of unupgraded marines without medivac support in midgame, that's not a fun situation.
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On February 02 2011 06:40 revy wrote: I prefer 12 Rax 14 Rax 15 OC with marine delayed ~5 seconds. Then I'll keep making rines and scvs constantly, expand when possible. Send first 4-5 rines to your opponent's base, harass around, don't lose them. If they're playing aggressive then pull these 4 back and play defensive (with a few bunkers as you suggest), else I'll keep sending rines to them and annoying them. I'll drop 1 bunker at base and retreat when I need to. Gives a nice blend of early game aggression with a nice eco oriented opening. Just don't take your gas too late, otherwise you'll have a whole mess of unupgraded marines without medivac support in midgame, that's not a fun situation.
Oh yeah that reminds me! I actually do open 12-14 Rax now with a slightly delayed marine, just like you said. I updated the post to reflect that. Comments on this thread told me I should try that and I've found it to be the superior method to mine. The first marines are yours to choose to do what you want with. Sometimes I do a small marine poke with a couple SCVs, other times I just keep them around and play defensively. It's all up to you, but thanks for reminding me!
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Im going to be working to optimize this built just a little bit better. At high levels of play, the 4gate push comes at 5:20, which is a little too early for this build to hold off..
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On February 02 2011 11:22 lilky wrote: Im going to be working to optimize this built just a little bit better. At high levels of play, the 4gate push comes at 5:20, which is a little too early for this build to hold off..
Cool cool Yeah a SUPER fast 4 Gate would do pretty damn well against this. Let me know if you figure anything out ^^
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Would this said super fast 4 gate involve only 1 gas?
12/14 rax is pretty sick on scrap station if i proxy the 2nd rax on the top of the nat ramp and float it down. It looks exactly like a 1 rax gasless expand unless you specifically scout there lol
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Australia326 Posts
Good guide overall.
Couple of things though: Against Roach rush and 4 gate - you might be hard-pressed to defend. You state 6:30-7 as the key timing, that is more for 3-rax stim pushes and 'late' 4 gates. 4 gate 1 gas hits @ around 5:45-5:55 earliest, so be prepared to pull SCVs. 7RR hits even earlier than this - I remember in one the threads it had a theoretical time of 4:40 - factor in travel time to your base and something like 5:00-5:20 would be realistic.
Of course you can invest all your resources and time in holding off these 1-base attacks, as if you do - the game is technically won.
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I would think the main advantage of 2-rax FE is that if Toss goes 1-gate FE and u see it fast, or he does not have a sentry, u can potentially do an scv all-in (no sentry) or exp kill. Though only with 14 rax 2 though.
Dun build the bunkers unless he is obviously saving energy at nexus for warpgates. Or u already see him chronoing cybernetics, with gates coming in.
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I'm not convinced you can't hold off all early pressure only going a single rax before expo. As long as you are fast with your scv's, even half full bunkers can hold off pretty significant armies, and by the time a 4 gate hits you should have more than half full bunkers anyway, assuming you build at least one more barracks after the expo.
I play 1 rax FE all MU's all maps (have SoW/DQ x'd off) and whenever I lose to early pressure I can pinpoint where I should have played better. I've learned never to skimp on the bunkers, and it seems to work alright up to at least high diamond.
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On February 17 2011 09:30 Evantas wrote: I would think the main advantage of 2-rax FE is that if Toss goes 1-gate FE and u see it fast, or he does not have a sentry, u can potentially do an scv all-in (no sentry) or exp kill. Though only with 14 rax 2 though.
Dun build the bunkers unless he is obviously saving energy at nexus for warpgates. Or u already see him chronoing cybernetics, with gates coming in.
I don't like all-ins. It's a coin flip at that point. I'd rather go toe to toe with macro and win that way. Especially with the transitions I have in TvP, I'm extremely confident I can win in the mid-lategame. I've learned that you shouldn't pass the bunkers up. Get at least one, because a well-microed 2 stalker poke sucks to deal with when your marines are slower and have less range than the stalkers.
I think the bunkers are a very small price to pay for staying alive in the mid game. With my transitions, I never need the 300 minerals during the early game phase, and I can always salvage the bunkers later. Better safe than sorry ^.-
On February 17 2011 09:45 eluv wrote: I'm not convinced you can't hold off all early pressure only going a single rax before expo. As long as you are fast with your scv's, even half full bunkers can hold off pretty significant armies, and by the time a 4 gate hits you should have more than half full bunkers anyway, assuming you build at least one more barracks after the expo.
I play 1 rax FE all MU's all maps (have SoW/DQ x'd off) and whenever I lose to early pressure I can pinpoint where I should have played better. I've learned never to skimp on the bunkers, and it seems to work alright up to at least high diamond.
I used to play A LOT of 1 Rax FE, but a solid 4 Gate will crush through your bunkers, simply because you do not have enough firepower to shoot down the army before they die. Sure, you can pull SCVs to repair, but the 6 stalker 4 zealot 4 Gate just flat out outdpses the repairing. You're right thought about never skimping on the bunkers, if you FE, you need the to stay alive, unless you did a 2 Rax Stim expand xD. And I play in Mid masters if rank really matters. 2 Rax FE is the way to go vs Toss. Again, it's a very small economic loss to stay alive and get ahead in the early game.
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In light of the recent popularity of the iEchoic 2Fact2Port build, I've added some information on the best way to deal with that style of play in the post.
I've come to the realization that this opener is can be flimsy in the TvT matchup, so take my advice with a grain of salt. With proper scouting and preparation, you can still manage to pull this off however as long as you have the proper transitions.
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Nice Builds and replays, but if I see 3 bunkers in your natural, what stops me from just loading up in a dropship/warp prism and going for the main?
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On February 24 2011 00:41 Synystyr wrote: In light of the recent popularity of the iEchoic 2Fact2Port build, I've added some information on the best way to deal with that style of play in the post.
I've come to the realization that this opener is can be flimsy in the TvT matchup, so take my advice with a grain of salt. With proper scouting and preparation, you can still manage to pull this off however as long as you have the proper transitions.
Thanks, I've been following your posts for a while now, its really helping a fellow Terran out!
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On February 24 2011 00:52 vahgar.r24 wrote: Nice Builds and replays, but if I see 3 bunkers in your natural, what stops me from just loading up in a dropship/warp prism and going for the main?
Nothing, that's something the Terran player should absolutely be expecting. If you cut off the main avenue of entrance, of course it is in the best interest of the opponent to find another way in, via drops, proxy warpins or Nydus.
This is all dealt with having total vision of your base through building placement or patrolling marines. You need to expect these things when you play this style, so just keep a good eye out, control the watchtowers and if possible, send units out to the angles they come in from so that you can intercept it.
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If you do this opener against Protoss and they go 4-gate warp prism into your main I doubt it is possible to have enough troops in time to deal with it. In my experience it is not possible to stop the warp prism even if you spot it early, they will drop some units and immediately warp in more. You cannot really focus-fire the warp prism without losing to much units to his warp-in units in the meantime.
But given that you hold their attack is it possible to transition straight to Thors after you get the expansion up or is it better to go Marine/Marauders first and then transition into Thors?
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On February 24 2011 02:50 MockHamill wrote: If you do this opener against Protoss and they go 4-gate warp prism into your main I doubt it is possible to have enough troops in time to deal with it. In my experience it is not possible to stop the warp prism even if you spot it early, they will drop some units and immediately warp in more. You cannot really focus-fire the warp prism without losing to much units to his warp-in units in the meantime.
But given that you hold their attack is it possible to transition straight to Thors after you get the expansion up or is it better to go Marine/Marauders first and then transition into Thors?
The style I play goes directly into Thors as soon as my expansion goes up.
CC -> Factory -> Armory
The timing of this allows me to get a Thor out just as the drop occurs and with some repair micro and pulling my marines to help, I can hold the push off. It's such a heavy investment for the Protoss to do this kind of attack, so if I stop it, I am undeniably ahead.
So yes, it is perfectly viable to go straight into Thor tech off your expansion. I do it almost every TvP.
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The style I play goes directly into Thors as soon as my expansion goes up.
CC -> Factory -> Armory
The timing of this allows me to get a Thor out just as the drop occurs and with some repair micro and pulling my marines to help, I can hold the push off. It's such a heavy investment for the Protoss to do this kind of attack, so if I stop it, I am undeniably ahead.
So yes, it is perfectly viable to go straight into Thor tech off your expansion. I do it almost every TvP.
thats basicly an all in strategy bud sure u get the thor out and push/ defend repairing it but than what?? assuming both of u expand after the failed aggresion / defence he simply goes immortals with the robo he NEEDS anyways and what do u do ?? either transfer bio and waste all that invested money to get the thor or u continue with mech and get completly baped by immos/colo/storm ... imo the 2 rax to a fe > 3 bunkers is the best opening againts protoss these days possibly throw in 1 - 2 turrets againts early collosi or void rays ... going back to the drop 3 bunkers full of units should be able to stop 4 zealots + 3 or 4 units warped in u always have scvs assuming u tranfer from the 2-fe into a 2-1-1 just pump a viking out and kill the prism
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On February 24 2011 03:02 Chrumchrum wrote:Show nested quote +The style I play goes directly into Thors as soon as my expansion goes up.
CC -> Factory -> Armory
The timing of this allows me to get a Thor out just as the drop occurs and with some repair micro and pulling my marines to help, I can hold the push off. It's such a heavy investment for the Protoss to do this kind of attack, so if I stop it, I am undeniably ahead.
So yes, it is perfectly viable to go straight into Thor tech off your expansion. I do it almost every TvP. thats basicly an all in strategy bud sure u get the thor out and push/ defend repairing it but than what?? assuming both of u expand after the failed aggresion / defence he simply goes immortals with the robo he NEEDS anyways and what do u do ?? either transfer bio and waste all that invested money to get the thor or u continue with mech and get completly baped by immos/colo/storm ... imo the 2 rax to a fe > 3 bunkers is the best opening againts protoss these days possibly throw in 1 - 2 turrets againts early collosi or void rays ... going back to the drop 3 bunkers full of units should be able to stop 4 zealots + 3 or 4 units warped in u always have scvs assuming u tranfer from the 2-fe into a 2-1-1 just pump a viking out and kill the prism
Aye your grammar made this so incredibly difficult to read =X
So what's my next step? Well I'm ahead inherently because I took down his 1 base push and I fast expanded, therefore my macro puts me in the lead. My next step of action to deny scouting with Thor/Raven and get mass Banshees out because that's my play style. Fake mass Thor/Marine to force Immortal/Zealot and then go air.
The transition after you get your expansion is completely up to you to do with what you want. If you go for a quick 4 Rax Stim after expansion, you should be able to hold this push off decently and tech to MMMGV and play slightly ahead.
There's really nothing all in with getting a Thor after expansion...I'm really confused with what you're trying to say.
Here, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190
This may give you a better idea of what I'm trying to do with this certain opener myself.
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sorry for the grammar english is my 2nd language. And personally im a bio / air ( medivac/viking) player transitioning to mass thor in the late game so im not exacly sure how the banshee build works. The 1 flaw i can point out in your play style straight away is feedback, templar are a standard in almost every mid tvp game and a few feedbacks or even storms on your banshees with the help of stalkers basicly shuts them down, also void ray play by protoss is getting more and more popular, with the banshee not being able to shoot air to air there is almost nothing you can do about them.
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I like it, it works fairly well and is something new to do, because I definitely know what you are talking about when you say that the 1 rax FE isnt nearly as safe, I feel the 30 second delay is wayy worth it for the amount of marines you get with it.
Thanks for sharing, Bonkerz
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On February 24 2011 03:24 Chrumchrum wrote: sorry for the grammar english is my 2nd language. And personally im a bio / air ( medivac/viking) player transitioning to mass thor in the late game so im not exacly sure how the banshee build works. The 1 flaw i can point out in your play style straight away is feedback, templar are a standard in almost every mid tvp game and a few feedbacks or even storms on your banshees with the help of stalkers basicly shuts them down, also void ray play by protoss is getting more and more popular, with the banshee not being able to shoot air to air there is almost nothing you can do about them.
I don't mean to sound like an ass, but this is all discussed on the other thread. I've covered all the situations you've mentioned already, so if you'd like to read how I handle it, it's all in the OP there. I'd appreciate if you read it before you get too heavy on the criticism Otherwise, it's always appreciated.
And don't worry too much about the grammar, I understand that speaking a non-native language can be difficult
On February 24 2011 03:25 Bonkerz wrote: I like it, it works fairly well and is something new to do, because I definitely know what you are talking about when you say that the 1 rax FE isnt nearly as safe, I feel the 30 second delay is wayy worth it for the amount of marines you get with it.
Thanks for sharing, Bonkerz
Glad you like it Hope it serves you well!
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I tried this strategy 3 times in a row now. First game: Thor proxy rush = died immediacy. Second game: A semi late banneling bust killed my 3 bunkers without problems. GG. Third game: Protoss 4-gate, he focus fire down 1 bunker than run his troops straight into my main. GG.
I give the strategy a few more tries but it seems very vulnerable.
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On February 24 2011 04:02 MockHamill wrote: I tried this strategy 3 times in a row now. First game: Thor proxy rush = died immediacy. Second game: A semi late banneling bust killed my 3 bunkers without problems. GG. Third game: Protoss 4-gate, he focus fire down 1 bunker than run his troops straight into my main. GG.
I give the strategy a few more tries but it seems very vulnerable.
Like I said, this build really is flimsiest against Terran. Still....I feel that both the Thor rush and the 4 Gate can be both be held off with mass repair. I've crushed 4 Gates over and over again with ease using this opener.
With the baneling bust, you should have two walls, the bunkers and the top of the ramp. With the double wall, you should be able to hold off the bust easily, the worst that happens is you lose some of the SCVs at your natural. This will put you behind yes, but you should have eked out enough income from the natural at this point to have teched a bit. I recommend a hellion counter attack after the bust. Most zergs drone hard after one and you'll be in a good position to sneak in. I've come back from quite a few games in that manner.
Bunkers have the same amount of health as supply depots do, so they're not super sturdy against banelings. However, this can be remedied if you spread your bunkers out a bit so they are all not sharing splash damage. This way, you can still prevent speedling runbys.
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Against Zerg I think it is best to fly your barracks down and let them protect the bunkers, making a thicker wall. That way it will be much harder to baneling bust you. If the go Roach you can let them damage the barracks a little bit to buy you time, then lift them off and move them back.
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On February 24 2011 04:35 MockHamill wrote: Against Zerg I think it is best to fly your barracks down and let them protect the bunkers, making a thicker wall. That way it will be much harder to baneling bust you. If the go Roach you can let them damage the barracks a little bit to buy you time, then lift them off and move them back.
I don't like using barracks to wall off because they're so easy to snipe by roaches, and addons are way too visible, so it's easy to scout your build that way if you want to do a mass marine stim push or something of that kind.
No, I personally prefer bunkers myself, but it's your choice of course =]
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You write in your TvT response, that you get a tank plus siege mode up before your opponents siegetanks arrive, although your refineries are more than a minute late? It would seem that he has ample time to shell your bunkers before you can respond in time.
Also stim timing hits way before you can get siege mode up. My stim timing push hits you at 5:50 and then only the terrans who went straight for siege tanks with 13+17 gas has one tank deployed.
Also you should time your Ebay earlier in case of banshee, because straight banshee tech will hit around 6:20.
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On February 24 2011 17:00 Thrombozyt wrote: You write in your TvT response, that you get a tank plus siege mode up before your opponents siegetanks arrive, although your refineries are more than a minute late? It would seem that he has ample time to shell your bunkers before you can respond in time.
Also stim timing hits way before you can get siege mode up. My stim timing push hits you at 5:50 and then only the terrans who went straight for siege tanks with 13+17 gas has one tank deployed.
Also you should time your Ebay earlier in case of banshee, because straight banshee tech will hit around 6:20.
This is assuming he does a later siege contain with 3+ tanks. With the double gas after expansion, I can quickly get the gas I need to get my tech flowing out. The bunkers will get shelled possibly, but it's repairable damage.
Stim timing hits before siege is done researching, but the push doesn't arrive before the bunkers go up. I've used 2 Rax Stim expand many many times, it's one of my favorite openers in both TvP and TvT. A bunker or two almost always shuts it down.
And yeah, I'm assuming cloaked banshee, which can be a little bit later than that. Constant marine production out of 2 Barracks is sufficient enough to deal with the banshees. It's always a good idea to bank energy for scans during that timing as well.
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On February 24 2011 02:50 MockHamill wrote: If you do this opener against Protoss and they go 4-gate warp prism into your main I doubt it is possible to have enough troops in time to deal with it.
If Protoss is going 4-gate + robo you have ample time to get your desired tech, be it stim+concussive, blue flame or siege. What's more troubling is a 3 gate robo. It's tricky because now you're worrying about an immortal bunker bust, as well as the possibility of a warp prism. The hardest counter to 1-2 rax FE's in my humble opinion is 3 gate robo where your first unit is a warp prism.
For this reason, if I scout anything but a 4-gate, or their own expansion, I've taken to putting up 3 turrets throughout my main, and 1 in my nat. This covers me from proxy stargates, DT's, warp prisms etc. It's a mineral sink, but balanced against the extra income of your fast extra base, your'e still coming out ahead.
Edit: I'm sure it's addressed in the OP, but unless the Protoss goes almost pure sentry, so long as you're fast with repair you can easily stop any attempt to bust your bunkers. Just make sure to hotkey a large group of SCV's at your natural.
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On February 24 2011 21:36 eluv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 02:50 MockHamill wrote: If you do this opener against Protoss and they go 4-gate warp prism into your main I doubt it is possible to have enough troops in time to deal with it.
If Protoss is going 4-gate + robo you have ample time to get your desired tech, be it stim+concussive, blue flame or siege. What's more troubling is a 3 gate robo. It's tricky because now you're worrying about an immortal bunker bust, as well as the possibility of a warp prism. The hardest counter to 1-2 rax FE's in my humble opinion is 3 gate robo where your first unit is a warp prism. For this reason, if I scout anything but a 4-gate, or their own expansion, I've taken to putting up 3 turrets throughout my main, and 1 in my nat. This covers me from proxy stargates, DT's, warp prisms etc. It's a mineral sink, but balanced against the extra income of your fast extra base, your'e still coming out ahead. Edit: I'm sure it's addressed in the OP, but unless the Protoss goes almost pure sentry, so long as you're fast with repair you can easily stop any attempt to bust your bunkers. Just make sure to hotkey a large group of SCV's at your natural.
Yeah by far the toughest push to hold off is 3 Gate Robo with Immortals. This is just because if you are caught unprepared, he can blow through your bunkers in a matter of seconds. However if you have a watchtower and spot it coming, you can preemptively place SCVs to repair against it and focus fire the Immortals down.
I personally like to get a Thor/Raven combo out to deal with any early-mid game transition shenanigans. Mixed in with the marines + bunkers, you can deny scouting really well and hold off most early pressure pushes. The Thor makes you extra safe =]
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IMO just open like 1rax FE, add on 4 more rax and gas and bunker up. Morrow popularized this early in the beta. Build still works fine but is -slightly- weak to 1base colossus.
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I have a question... At what point in the match do you feel like your FE is starting to pay dividends? I usually feel behind most of the match if I FE and he comes to attack me.
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On February 24 2011 23:51 BONE wrote: I have a question... At what point in the match do you feel like your FE is starting to pay dividends? I usually feel behind most of the match if I FE and he comes to attack me.
Once your first MULE starts mining from your Orbital at the nat, you notice a spike in income. So it doesn't take too long after your expansion goes up, so long as you maynard a few workers.
The bunkers are your investment to keep you alive during the period where you are weakest. As long as you defend any pushes without losing a significant amount of SCVs, you'll be ahead simply because your expansion was up faster and you can benefit from double MULEs.
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On February 25 2011 00:35 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 23:51 BONE wrote: I have a question... At what point in the match do you feel like your FE is starting to pay dividends? I usually feel behind most of the match if I FE and he comes to attack me. Once your first MULE starts mining from your Orbital at the nat, you notice a spike in income. So it doesn't take too long after your expansion goes up, so long as you maynard a few workers. The bunkers are your investment to keep you alive during the period where you are weakest. As long as you defend any pushes without losing a significant amount of SCVs, you'll be ahead simply because your expansion was up faster and you can benefit from double MULEs. Ok that makes sense... Even if they see you have an Expo and fall back to make their own you are in fact ahead at that point, provided you can defend whatever push they came at you with. I like the Marine/Tank/Banshee/Raven combo (against protoss) I normally do this off 1 base, and I harrass the mineral line with the 1st Banshee.... But the idea of it off 2 bases makes it seem much more powerful. I can't wait to try it tonight!
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On February 24 2011 00:58 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 00:52 vahgar.r24 wrote: Nice Builds and replays, but if I see 3 bunkers in your natural, what stops me from just loading up in a dropship/warp prism and going for the main? Nothing, that's something the Terran player should absolutely be expecting. If you cut off the main avenue of entrance, of course it is in the best interest of the opponent to find another way in, via drops, proxy warpins or Nydus. This is all dealt with having total vision of your base through building placement or patrolling marines. You need to expect these things when you play this style, so just keep a good eye out, control the watchtowers and if possible, send units out to the angles they come in from so that you can intercept it.
^^ Pretty much yes...I was looking for a safe expand , this seems to be a good one. What im surprised is that this can i guess be used against all races..Tried vs a zerg opponent and won.heling blinged thru the side opening but bunkers do help in saving the base. Went mass marines with banshee vs his roach later and end of game!..thanks for the build Synstyr, will be my std build now! Let me know if where I can improve on this build !
PS- Please put up more replays vs Zerg and terran for this build esp in diff scenarios like mass ling, ling bling muta harass , roach hyra etc..would flesh it out more!
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On February 25 2011 01:18 BONE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 00:35 Synystyr wrote:On February 24 2011 23:51 BONE wrote: I have a question... At what point in the match do you feel like your FE is starting to pay dividends? I usually feel behind most of the match if I FE and he comes to attack me. Once your first MULE starts mining from your Orbital at the nat, you notice a spike in income. So it doesn't take too long after your expansion goes up, so long as you maynard a few workers. The bunkers are your investment to keep you alive during the period where you are weakest. As long as you defend any pushes without losing a significant amount of SCVs, you'll be ahead simply because your expansion was up faster and you can benefit from double MULEs. Ok that makes sense... Even if they see you have an Expo and fall back to make their own you are in fact ahead at that point, provided you can defend whatever push they came at you with. I like the Marine/Tank/Banshee/Raven combo (against protoss) I normally do this off 1 base, and I harrass the mineral line with the 1st Banshee.... But the idea of it off 2 bases makes it seem much more powerful. I can't wait to try it tonight!
I wish you luck! Beware of early 1 base timing pushes. As long as you spot the attack ahead of time, you can be ready with your SCVs to repair your bunkers. With two bases, you can invest in more upgrades and do a much larger timing push. Post any replays if you have issues.
On February 25 2011 01:56 vahgar.r24 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 00:58 Synystyr wrote:On February 24 2011 00:52 vahgar.r24 wrote: Nice Builds and replays, but if I see 3 bunkers in your natural, what stops me from just loading up in a dropship/warp prism and going for the main? Nothing, that's something the Terran player should absolutely be expecting. If you cut off the main avenue of entrance, of course it is in the best interest of the opponent to find another way in, via drops, proxy warpins or Nydus. This is all dealt with having total vision of your base through building placement or patrolling marines. You need to expect these things when you play this style, so just keep a good eye out, control the watchtowers and if possible, send units out to the angles they come in from so that you can intercept it. ^^ Pretty much yes...I was looking for a safe expand , this seems to be a good one. What im surprised is that this can i guess be used against all races..Tried vs a zerg opponent and won.heling blinged thru the side opening but bunkers do help in saving the base. Went mass marines with banshee vs his roach later and end of game!..thanks for the build Synstyr, will be my std build now! Let me know if where I can improve on this build ! PS- Please put up more replays vs Zerg and terran for this build esp in diff scenarios like mass ling, ling bling muta harass , roach hyra etc..would flesh it out more!
I'm glad you're enjoying it I'll get a few more Zerg games uploaded ASAP! I'm trying to find the right transition out of this myself....Thor/Hellion/MMM has been going decently well for me but I got rofled in the late game if my push is stopped. Maybe I'll just have to learn Marine Tank Medivac better ^^
I'll check the replay as soon as I get home!
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Ok I have done the strat some more and it seems to be good versus Zerg/Protoss. However my last game on Xelnaga Caverns I got hit by a proxy 4-gate at 5.40 into the game.
I had not even finished my CC (which I built in my main) and since I planned on using 3-4 bunkers at my expo I had no bunkers at my main so I lost. What can you do against such a fast 4-gate if you plan on doing a FE?
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On February 26 2011 05:30 MockHamill wrote: Ok I have done the strat some more and it seems to be good versus Zerg/Protoss. However my last game on Xelnaga Caverns I got hit by a proxy 4-gate at 5.40 into the game.
I had not even finished my CC (which I built in my main) and since I planned on using 3-4 bunkers at my expo I had no bunkers at my main so I lost. What can you do against such a fast 4-gate if you plan on doing a FE?
Unfortunately, it is way too difficult to bunker expand on a map like Xel'naga Caverns because of the huge, wide open natural. You simply can't cover every opening with a bunker as the Protoss can simply bypass them. Try a 2 Rax Stim Expand instead on maps like these.
Also, it sounds like your bunkers are slow if you aren't getting them up before the 4 Gate. The timing of the bunkers finishes almost at the same time as Warp Gate is finished researching. Have a replay handy? I can check it for you.
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It seem the new maps completely destroys this opening? Every natural is to open to bunker expand?
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You should post a replay of some standard ZvT play. Not those damn roach pushes
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i have been trying this build, it seems to fall very easliy to any 1 base colo or fe into colo, i just don't have enough units even though i can get vikings in time, im still not sure why
the only way i got this to work reliably was by using the first 4-6 marines and 2 scvs to rush the protoss to prevent him from going 1 gate FE while expanding myself, even if i lose 4 mraines i can stop his counter-attack with the bunkers and i will be ahead
its a good build but requires a lot of practice to get right, at least against master level players
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Sorry I haven't gotten back to you guys in a bit, I've been busy.
On February 26 2011 19:14 MockHamill wrote: It seem the new maps completely destroys this opening? Every natural is to open to bunker expand?
Yes, the new maps do not favor this opening. While this kind of opener is useful on maps that allow it, I do not recommend this for the most recent map pool. The only viable map left I would open with this build is on Shattered Temple, where the choke is still small enough that 3 bunkers will heavily deter runbys, and still allow for SCVs to quickly reinforce and repair.
On February 26 2011 21:30 basic369 wrote: You should post a replay of some standard ZvT play. Not those damn roach pushes
Sorry, it was all I had at the time. I'll work on a few more replays with this opener vs Zerg. I'll get my practice partner to Baneling bust me and show you the effectiveness a double wallin has against it =]
On February 28 2011 00:29 LG)Sabbath wrote: i have been trying this build, it seems to fall very easliy to any 1 base colo or fe into colo, i just don't have enough units even though i can get vikings in time, im still not sure why
the only way i got this to work reliably was by using the first 4-6 marines and 2 scvs to rush the protoss to prevent him from going 1 gate FE while expanding myself, even if i lose 4 mraines i can stop his counter-attack with the bunkers and i will be ahead
its a good build but requires a lot of practice to get right, at least against master level players
I believe that if you can't get the units out fast enough to take out 1 base Colossi or especially FE -> Colossi, your macro is not up to par. I can easily tech to Starport and have a Raven + Thor out before the first Colossus hits. If you scout a 1 base Colossus rush, obviously you'd get something else to deny it instead of a raven, but you should have more than enough to stop this push.
My suggestion is to focus more heavily on tech, rather than more bio if you scout this type of play. MM doesn't cut it vs this kind of a rush and you'll want to get some sort of air unit out to deal with it. Post a replay if you need further analysis!
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This works great, I 2racks/3bunk FE like you said and it worked i just held off the choke wit marines in the bunkers, he zealot rushed me then switched in 3gate/port.
I went rine/thor
I destroyed him badly
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Specifically with the new patch coming up, I'll be doing a large update on this post. Protoss early pressure pushes may come before the bunkers are able to finish so I'll see if I can get on the PTR and test this out. What it may come down to is that you will have to drop 3 bunkers at your natural before CC if you scout early Gateway pressure.
Also, I want to touch base on double expands behind this build as well. I've been having extremely good success with double expanding vs Zerg and feel like it can definitely be extended vs Terran and Protoss. Look forward to more!
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I was on the PTR all evening yesterday testing out various openings vs Toss. I got the pleasure of playing against a few Master Protoss (for I am mere high-Diamond). My marine-only builds were put under a lot of fire, as Stalker+Zealot pressure came as expected 5-10 seconds sooner. I was able to hold off, but only barely (at the hands of a few defensive SCV).
One thing that I have realized is the stability and consistency of a 2-Rax opening with Concussive Shell Marauders into Fast expansion. While the Zealots come a lot sooner, they arrive at the base only seconds before -- or right during -- Concussive finishes. This plays into my hands as a Terran, as the Protoss literally feeds me free units to kite and mop up. This might be an early PTR Meta and might soon change, but it is under my impression that Protoss now feels very confident with having units sooner and sends them right over. In the past, I had to send 2 Marauder, 2 Marine to his base to clear out a few units. It seems every game they came right to me.
I feel this sort of opening will be necessary. I would do a 1-Rax (2 Conc. Marauder 1 Marine) opener, but because some protoss are more eager than others, I need the 2nd naked Rax as insurance in case he chooses to continue the pressure after the 2nd and even 3rd Gateways finish. But from there, getting bunkers and a CC around 5:30 are very easy. That would ensure a safe 2 Rax stim opener into whatever build one may desire.
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inferior to 1 rax cc into 4 rax marine.. can't put pressure on zerg if you're turtling with bunkers
will do nothing vs early drop play hellion harrassment from terran.. i thought it was already established 1 rax cc or 2 rax pressure cc is the better tvp build and 2 rax tvz... try again maybe
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Hi
I've been working on a variant of this build, but it seems against protoss and terran it is very effective to go the 12 and 13 rax (Cutting a few seconds off an SCV) and doing a quick 6 marine (2 scv if protoss) push. This will arrive at the enemy base between 5:00 to 5:20 game time, and the protoss will likely only have a zealot and a stalker with another unit on the way, and a terran will have a few marines going for siege tanks. an early supply block or a mismicro can easily win you the game, and if not you are still expanding early, and you can hold off a counter attack with bunkers and good play.
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I like this build a lot. I'm a new Terran player and I like the idea of a quick expansion with bunkers/marines to fortify it.
I wonder though. I came up with a build of my own for 22 SCVs, 14 Marines and 3 Bunkers finished at 5:50-5:55. Seems like this would be even tougher to crack with stuff like Roach Push.
10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks 15 Orbital Command 15 Marine 16 Calldown MULE 16 Barracks 16 Command Center 16 Marine 17 Barracks 17 Supply Depot 17 Marine 20 Marine 21 Marine 22 Bunker 23 Marine 24 Marine 25 Marine 26 Calldown MULE 26 Orbital Command 27 Marine 28 Marine 29 Marine 30 Bunker 30 Bunker 31 Marine 32 Marine 33 Marine
5:50.00 397M 0G Income: 1257M 0G Buildings: 3 Barracks 2 Orbital Command 3 Bunker Units: 22 SCV 14 Marine
Basically a no-gas FE for Terran with 22 SCVs and 14 Marines, along with 3 Bunkers to defend. As soon as you expand you could get gas if you wanted, or just wait and get all four at the same time and tech explode like the Spanishiwa build.
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Hmmm... I'm wonder if this has been nullified by any sort of patch in the past 3 months since this strategy was made. I'll have to try it out; as I'm not very confident in 1/1/1 and from Warcraft 3, I'm used to having a standard opening vs all the other races. Hah, and a fast expand, and I used to be a Human player. It'll be a shame if this strategy's affected by recent patches.
And I like bunkers :D
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On May 20 2011 05:03 deathtrance wrote: Hmmm... I'm wonder if this has been nullified by any sort of patch in the past 3 months since this strategy was made. I'll have to try it out; as I'm not very confident in 1/1/1 and from Warcraft 3, I'm used to having a standard opening vs all the other races. Hah, and a fast expand, and I used to be a Human player. It'll be a shame if this strategy's affected by recent patches.
And I like bunkers :D
The only patch change that would have affected this opener is the bunker salvage refund. You lose 25 minerals for each bunker salvage....big deal Warpgate research times was nerfed, so you don't have to fear for 4 Gates with an opener like this and such.
I still use this in TvP and TvZ. Not quite so sturdy in TvT because of early tank pushes however.
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I have an idea to make this bo work on the new ladder maps :O
When you're cutting marines to build a depot, why not lift off your 2 rax to complete the bunker walloff? It takes away your initial walloff if you chose to make one (blink stalkers are more effective), but it deters any dt rush or zergling runby.
It probly wouldn't work on every map in the ladder map pool, but it's worth a try :D
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On May 20 2011 07:19 noobinator wrote: I have an idea to make this bo work on the new ladder maps :O
When you're cutting marines to build a depot, why not lift off your 2 rax to complete the bunker walloff? It takes away your initial walloff if you chose to make one (blink stalkers are more effective), but it deters any dt rush or zergling runby.
It probly wouldn't work on every map in the ladder map pool, but it's worth a try :D
Haha actually, I'm already doing that vs Zerg. I double expand, once at 23 and again at 27. During that small supply cap, I lift the barracks off and land them in front of my bunkers. The bunkers are built spaced out and the barracks close the gaps. This makes for an extremely baneling-proof wallin and still allows marines to rally behind the wall. It's amazing ^^
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Hi Synystyr,
I'm also keen to see more zerg games with your strategy. I'm totally clueless in TvZ and mostly rely on my opponents mistakes to win the game so I'm hyper curious about this double expanding business and how the game flows in your TvZ when running this strat.
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My question for this build is how does it differ from a 2rax FE that gets gas at the standard timing of 13, for a fast tech lab on the first rax?
Not so much in actual build order differences, because I can see those, but in terms of your attitude as you play the build. is a 2rax FE with slower gas a more passive build? More economic?
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On May 20 2011 09:54 antz0r wrote: Hi Synystyr,
I'm also keen to see more zerg games with your strategy. I'm totally clueless in TvZ and mostly rely on my opponents mistakes to win the game so I'm hyper curious about this double expanding business and how the game flows in your TvZ when running this strat.
I've been out of Starcraft for a bit...I don't know if I'll quite write a comprehensive guide on my TvZ play, but I can suppose I can always release a replay pack of it regardless ^^ It's a finicky build
On June 01 2011 13:00 Dhalphir wrote: My question for this build is how does it differ from a 2rax FE that gets gas at the standard timing of 13, for a fast tech lab on the first rax?
Not so much in actual build order differences, because I can see those, but in terms of your attitude as you play the build. is a 2rax FE with slower gas a more passive build? More economic?
2 Rax FE with a Tech Lab has more options, but it's not as good for growth into higher tier techs than a naked 2 Rax FE. Both can pressure, but it's different kinds of pressure. Naked 2 Rax can push with 5 Marines or so and do relatively free damage and pick off a few units while a 2 Rax Tech Lab expand can be backed up with a Conc. shell push or a fast Stim timing push (which is what I favor personally)
I prefer expanding with 2 naked barracks with bunkers if possible. It feels the absolute safest and I can run off of 4 geysers and tech very quickly and safely. Tech Lab expands are better for pressuring and having a more mobile standing ground force.
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Its just a waste by putting down three bunkers, you'll become to reliant on them as well. Should instead figure out what scares you the most, go into vs comp game and see what the quickst you can make said problem and just prepare against that while getting a decent army size then expanding.
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On June 02 2011 00:51 aaycumi wrote: Its just a waste by putting down three bunkers, you'll become to reliant on them as well. Should instead figure out what scares you the most, go into vs comp game and see what the quickst you can make said problem and just prepare against that while getting a decent army size then expanding.
300 minerals is a tiny investment to keep you COMPLETELY safe during the early game and makes it very easy for you to tech quickly and without having to worry about being crushed. Even better if you make it into the midgame unscathed and get a refund of 225 minerals. There are literally very, very few 1 base pushes that can break this and those that can come much, much later and by then your early expansion should have already kicked in.
Also...I don't need to play against computers. I use this opener at a high Masters level and still swear by it, especially against Zerg and Protoss. Also a great generic FE opener against random players as well.
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Very nicely written guide. I have seen the replays. Does the strat only work on Lost Temple, since that's what you're showing in the replays (I am thinking of Bunker placement). Thank you
Edit: I just tried the first game, which was against another Terran. Got some Thors, Tanks and Marines out, but got crushed. If you have time for it, here is a replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?1d2tw616jzgwl4h (I am called "Egern" in the game btw). Thanks.
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Synystyr! I swear you're like the Terran savior. I've used your builds and they work like 80% of the time! Thanks for a nice write-up!
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Im a platinum player and how would work with people with low skill such as myself that doesnt get the idea of spending the money that comes out of the extra early command center and is it just meant for early all'ins or general defense. Thanks for the post
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On June 02 2011 01:28 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 00:51 aaycumi wrote: Its just a waste by putting down three bunkers, you'll become to reliant on them as well. Should instead figure out what scares you the most, go into vs comp game and see what the quickst you can make said problem and just prepare against that while getting a decent army size then expanding. 300 minerals is a tiny investment to keep you COMPLETELY safe during the early game and makes it very easy for you to tech quickly and without having to worry about being crushed. Even better if you make it into the midgame unscathed and get a refund of 225 minerals. There are literally very, very few 1 base pushes that can break this and those that can come much, much later and by then your early expansion should have already kicked in. Also...I don't need to play against computers. I use this opener at a high Masters level and still swear by it, especially against Zerg and Protoss. Also a great generic FE opener against random players as well.
The problem is that your opponent can see that and spend his 300 minerals on getting another CC/barracks/whatever and be ahead of you.
It's a good opener for most players, but it has really obvious flaws imo, the main flaws being that you're blindly investing into a lot of defense and that you cannot put on any pressure for quite a while. It's a build that will work on the ladder if you are quite sure that you can win in a macro game, but it's not an extremely efficient build in my opinion, especially against a Zerg player as you can scout a RR coming from a mile away.
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I just don't feel safe fast-expanding against protoss at all. It seems like there are a million things that, even if prepared for, are unbeatable. When your FE-ing, you will have bunkers to defend your frount. But how about if the toss gets blink and an observer or halucination and bypasses ur defenses? Some guy even used a warp prism elevator against me. Or, even worse, how about 2-3 voids that just go for your main instead of dealing with your bunkers? 1 base collosi is soo hard to beat to. I don't know, maybe I just need to gain some more experience, but I find that the trend toward FE-ing against protoss is just really flimsy. It's probably just that I'm not experiecned enough, but for now, I'm just gonna all-in any protoss I meet because if I FE, they will just all-in me anyways.
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I love this build, thanks for the guide. But I can never make it work in TvT because ot seems like theres too many 1 base units that can own Bunkers. Marauders, Reapers, Tanks, Thors, Banshees...it seems like I'm almost always better off going faster gas for faster Stim/Shields/Siege.
I do have some trouble with it in TvP because a Sentry or Stalker heavy 3-6 gate is difficult to out-repair. But its great if the P is teching or FEing.
And of course the build is perfect for TvZ, because Bunkers are great vs all Hatch tech, and you're already walling anyways.
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Have been using this for the evening's games and really enjoyed playing it - for TvZ especially. Still opening 1/1/1 TvT and need to experiment a bit more with it on TvP, especially with the Banshee transition you posted.
Very nice, thanks for a solid opener for a more casual player such as myself.
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Dear OPer, do you have any updates in agreement with the metagame nowadays? Are the same tactics and builds still viable?
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On September 07 2011 06:17 KenDM wrote: Dear OPer, do you have any updates in agreement with the metagame nowadays? Are the same tactics and builds still viable?
Hey, sorry to get back to you so late! I've been out of the game for the summer but I've just started up again recently so this is my take on things.
I still use this opener in both TvZ and TvP. I prefer bio expands in TvT because marauders help you deal with early hellion pressure and expand more safely while also allowing you to have a mobile attack force.
So, it's perfectly viable in TvZ and TvP still, and should still be post Patch 1.4. I think with the Warp Prism buff however, we can be a little more wary of drops that try to get around the bunkers. With Blink taking longer to research, Blink rushes will no longer hit the window of timing where you are weakest. GL!
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What maps can you still use this with? I've been out of it for awhile...
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I've been using this in some custom games and it's pretty solid. TvP, I go up to 5 rax with reactor starport after expanding, and TvZ I go marine/tank/medivac and once the second base is saturated add a second factory and start pumping out Thors. After a little more practice I'll take it to the ladder.
Synystyr, what's this bio expand you speak of for TvT? I've seen in the streams a lot of Korean players applying early marauder pressure in TvT that seems VERY effective. Going up the ramp with 2 marauders and an SCV that early in the game, they almost always take out a couple of depots or add-ons.
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Thanks for this post, it will definitely guide me as i switch races ^^
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On September 17 2011 06:04 Autofire2 wrote: What maps can you still use this with? I've been out of it for awhile...
Current Map Pool (Maps applicable are bolded): Xel'Naga Caverns (2) Abyssal Caverns (4) Antiga Shipyard (4) Backwater Gulch (4) Nerazim Crypt (4) Searing Crater (4) Shakuras Plateau (4) Tal'darim Altar LE (4) The Shattered Temple (4) Typhon Peaks (4)
On September 25 2011 00:57 Tuplex wrote: I've been using this in some custom games and it's pretty solid. TvP, I go up to 5 rax with reactor starport after expanding, and TvZ I go marine/tank/medivac and once the second base is saturated add a second factory and start pumping out Thors. After a little more practice I'll take it to the ladder.
Synystyr, what's this bio expand you speak of for TvT? I've seen in the streams a lot of Korean players applying early marauder pressure in TvT that seems VERY effective. Going up the ramp with 2 marauders and an SCV that early in the game, they almost always take out a couple of depots or add-ons.
2 Marauder Expand
10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Gas -> Pull SCVs off at 75 gas 15 OC 16 Marine -> Tech Lab after Marine -> 2 Marauders Push with Marine, Marauders and an SCV or two Expand at 400 minerals, restart mining gas Add infrastructure as needed
Good against greedy tech builds like gas first builds or CC before Rax. Do not commit if there is a bunker. Aim to kill addons/depots or SCVs. Pick off marines and camp spawn points if possible. Do not lose units if you can afford to, prepare for Banshees if you scout this.
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This is a sick opener, especially good vs protoss. I am a high diamond player that has been using this and it is extremely potent. Pluses:- Solid defence very quick, safe expansion when some protoss scout 2rax, they over react and build forge & cannons, allowing you to get further ahead. very strong on most maps very noob friendly, providing safe macro build Negatives:- Lack of early map control immobile defence I find it harder to secure third base.
Tips that I have found: -its important to scout around the edges of your base for any proxy pylons that may bypass your defence. -first 25 gas should make a techlab with barracks and get an early stim pack. this allows you to chase down enemies. -getting marauders is key vs protoss to survive early gate pressure and blink stalker pressure -be wary of warp prism drops and nydus worms -if you scout a protoss being greedy and expanding super early, you can punish with the two rax marines -dont reccomend this vs terran as tanks can barrage your wall -three bunkers will not defend a large 6-8 gate attack with or 6gate with immortals without sufficient units behind -early drops will help regain you map control, allow scouting and increase your economic lead. -engineering bay is key after your three bunkers for the missile turret detection and anti air, start upgrades for your infantry as soon as possible. -in order to get double ups going, once you are 1-0 and armour is 75%, throw down second engineering bay and armory
I completly reccomend this to newer terrans in especially the TvP match up. it allows you to secure a safe economic lead.
Thanks for the awesome build order mousez
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Thx for the guide
I have a question about the map pool.
I've tried this Bo with your lists and i have a little problem with Searing Crater.
When i spot on cross pos.(N-E/S-W or N-W/S-E)) or close aerial pos.(N-E/S-E or N-W/S-W) I put my 3 bunkers in a line (choke to choke) and take expo with rock.
But when i'm in a close position, i don't know how to defend with my 3 bunkers, still take rock expo (hard to defend against roaches on rock) ?
NB : Sry for my poor english >_<
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This build doesn't seem very optimal... A 1 rax FE in TvP and TvT, and a standard 2-rax bunker pressure into expansion seem better.
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Any good way to continue in the game while incorporating siege tanks for defense and switching to a 'sky terran' play with vikings + banshees ?
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