EPT[G] TvX 2 Rax 3 Bunker Fast Expand Opener - Page 2
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Ponyo
United States1231 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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heyyouyesyou
United States323 Posts
@OP: This is a great build because i can quickly and safely tech to cloaked banshees (or vikings vs stargate) to combats 4gate, 2gate robo pushes, 3gate robo pushes, void ray rushes, and i get an ebay after my factory goes down to get turrets against dts. Also against 1gate fe into 6gate push or high templar tech i can harass with cloaked banshees and abuse the lack of detection. Ill try to get some replays for you when i can get to my computer. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On January 21 2011 11:13 SEA_Syntax wrote: nice...this is a better opener to use than 1 rax imo...then use the banshee marine raven you've posted before...thanks i had a lot of success with it... Glad you enjoy them! On January 21 2011 11:15 Antisocialmunky wrote: Have you tried 3 Bunker Contain with this instead :-p? Instead of building at your natural, build at his. Hahaha I actually didn't think of that xD. Sounds like fun! I might have to try that lololol. On January 21 2011 13:07 heyyouyesyou wrote: @antisocialmunkey Thats what i thought this build would be about lol. @OP: This is a great build because i can quickly and safely tech to cloaked banshees (or vikings vs stargate) to combats 4gate, 2gate robo pushes, 3gate robo pushes, void ray rushes, and i get an ebay after my factory goes down to get turrets against dts. Also against 1gate fe into 6gate push or high templar tech i can harass with cloaked banshees and abuse the lack of detection. Ill try to get some replays for you when i can get to my computer. Awesome  I'd love to see what you've done. Glad it works to some degree haha. Keep it up. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
This definitely sounds like it will be slower expo than 1gate and includes zero pressure. | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
2 rax FE is very viable vs. Z, which was pioneered by Marine King (according to Tastosis). You can feign early pressure, forcing lings, while expanding yourself. 1 rax FE in TvT has also been very common in the GSL. MKP opened 2 rax (no gas) vs. Nada on LT in GSL4, he actually all-in'd open seeing the tech lab on the barracks but I would have expected him to expand behind the 2rax had the attack not worked. 1 rax FE vs. protoss has also been known for a while, the main difficulties are holding off 4gates and gateway rushes with immortals that chew through bunkers, as you mentioned. Since all these FE builds have been known for a while, the only new parts to discuss are: 1) 1 rax FE vs. 2 rax FE. More initial defense versus slightly delayed eco. Interesting concept, but actually vs. Z and T, 2 rax opening is actually AGGRESSIVE. So you could really poke a bit with your mass of marines which would make your own FE safer too. If you are purely defending, then 1 rax FE is actually better because you get faster econ - I'm not sure exactly where the breakpoint is, but I'm guessing that most of the attacks you mentioned (esp. TvP) actually hit AFTER the time where the 1rax FE build outperforms the 2rax FE build due to faster eco. So in those situations, you'd actually have more units than a 2rax FE opener. But as you mentioned, the difference is slight, so it might not have a huge effect. Thus, all of the all-ins that you mentioned can usually be held off with a 1 rax FE (except the super early rushes where going 2nd rax before CC instead of the other way round gives you more units at the attack timing). Why not go for the extra safety with 2 rax then? Leads to my next point... 2) Your build is too defensive. It presumes that your opponent will all-in you. If he does not, and macros up instead, you will be behind. For example, 2 rax FE will be behind 1 rax FE in TvT, unless you pressure with your early marines. Your 3 bunkers make the situation even worse. With 300 extra minerals, you opponent could double expand, like what MVP did in GSL4 (MVP won). Therefore, you really need to be actively scouting to see whether your opponent is going to out-macro your macro build. Conclusion: Pros: very safe build against early attacks, excellent eco going into mid-game, great for lower level players Cons: can get outmacroed if scouted | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On January 21 2011 13:59 Pokebunny wrote: Do you really make three bunkers no matter what? I feel quite safe going 1 rax no gas fe into 4 rax with stim asap vs protoss with 2 bunkers tops on most maps without retardedly open naturals. (read: xelnaga, blistering, delta) This definitely sounds like it will be slower expo than 1gate and includes zero pressure. Yeah, I've just personally found this opening to be very safe to macro behind. Other than scouting with a marine or two, I don't apply pressure. It could adapted to apply pressure though, (7 min mark, scout 1 Gate FE, push in with 15-20 marines after salvaging bunkers). My own style has me playing for a huge 2 base push with banshee/marine/raven while grabbing a third behind that and throwing down a Fusion Core for a BC transition. I haven't actually timed it against a 1 Gate FE, but it can't be any slower than 20 seconds. I could be overcommitting to the bunkers for defence, but I feel better safe than sorry. It's really nice to have that complete wall off during a 4 Gate so they don't just walk right through it. Worst situation, I just salvage the bunkers and use the reclaimed minerals towards tech/army. On January 21 2011 15:16 Daniel C wrote: This build is really nothing new, but thanks for laying it out for the newer players in the forum. 2 rax FE is very viable vs. Z, which was pioneered by Marine King (according to Tastosis). You can feign early pressure, forcing lings, while expanding yourself. 1 rax FE in TvT has also been very common in the GSL. MKP opened 2 rax (no gas) vs. Nada on LT in GSL4, he actually all-in'd open seeing the tech lab on the barracks but I would have expected him to expand behind the 2rax had the attack not worked. 1 rax FE vs. protoss has also been known for a while, the main difficulties are holding off 4gates and gateway rushes with immortals that chew through bunkers, as you mentioned. Since all these FE builds have been known for a while, the only new parts to discuss are: 1) 1 rax FE vs. 2 rax FE. More initial defense versus slightly delayed eco. Interesting concept, but actually vs. Z and T, 2 rax opening is actually AGGRESSIVE. So you could really poke a bit with your mass of marines which would make your own FE safer too. If you are purely defending, then 1 rax FE is actually better because you get faster econ - I'm not sure exactly where the breakpoint is, but I'm guessing that most of the attacks you mentioned (esp. TvP) actually hit AFTER the time where the 1rax FE build outperforms the 2rax FE build due to faster eco. So in those situations, you'd actually have more units than a 2rax FE opener. But as you mentioned, the difference is slight, so it might not have a huge effect. Thus, all of the all-ins that you mentioned can usually be held off with a 1 rax FE (except the super early rushes where going 2nd rax before CC instead of the other way round gives you more units at the attack timing). Why not go for the extra safety with 2 rax then? Leads to my next point... 2) Your build is too defensive. It presumes that your opponent will all-in you. If he does not, and macros up instead, you will be behind. For example, 2 rax FE will be behind 1 rax FE in TvT, unless you pressure with your early marines. Your 3 bunkers make the situation even worse. With 300 extra minerals, you opponent could double expand, like what MVP did in GSL4 (MVP won). Therefore, you really need to be actively scouting to see whether your opponent is going to out-macro your macro build. Conclusion: Pros: very safe build against early attacks, excellent eco going into mid-game, great for lower level players Cons: can get outmacroed if scouted First off, thanks for an excellent analysis of this build TL needs more quality posts like this. I consider this a very noob friendly opener for those who aren't really used to fast expanding. I know it's nothing new but I want to be an advocate of macro style games, rather than add to the countless 1 base all-ins out there.I really like the points you make for 1 Rad FE vs 2 Rax FE. With my current level of play, I feel much more confident defending with a 2 Rax rather than a 1 Rax opener, I've played many 1 Rax openers but lost quite a few games for not having the skill and micro required to defend a 1 Rax FE successfully. I really just enjoy the strong sense of security I have in the early game, knowing I can go into the midgame with a very strong economy. If an opponent does a 1 base push, I know for a fact that I can hold it off and be very ahead after that, allowing me to crush my opponent with a very decisive macro lead. I do realize the opener is very defensive, and that's a style that I like to play. It can easily be adapted to something a little more aggressive, you don't have to keep your marines in those bunkers at all times, but instead do a soft poke with 15ish marines against a Zerg who might feel too confident and drone too hard. I can agree that this opening is weakest in TvT. A Terran who scouts this may go ahead and double expand. On my side though, I should be ready to expect this and scout diligently for it. They are going for just as large a risk to do that as I am, and I may be in just to right position to punish a greedy move like that with a quick drop or marine push. If an opponent did 1 Rax FE vs my 2 Rax FE, then I would definetely feel the pressure of being behind, so I'd opt for an early contain with tanks/marines and grab a third behind that. Contains in TvT have worked wonders for me and since I concentrate so heavily on vikings, I can snipe most of the drops I have incoming. Again, this is just my personal style of play and it was something I wanteed to share with the TL community. Thanks again for such a wondering post | ||
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Autunno
Brazil147 Posts
How would you go on a mapa like xel'naga caverns? It seems to be more dificult to secure your FE against e.g. 4 gate rush. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On January 22 2011 00:30 Autunno wrote: Interesting. I was strugling myself to get an early expo against protoss without being weak for a 2 minuts window, guess I just didn't thought about putting down 3 bunkers =P. How would you go on a mapa like xel'naga caverns? It seems to be more dificult to secure your FE against e.g. 4 gate rush. Yeah I've found it's next to impossible to defend a 4 Gate on open naturals, so I choose to opt out of Bunker FEing on maps such as that. It can be done if you keep the three bunkers very close to each other, almost touching the command center to cover most of the area, but instead I prefer a different style of 2 Rax FE 10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Gas 15 Orbital 16 Depot Tech Lab on Barracks after first marine Marine + Stim after Tech Lab finishes Build a 2nd Barracks for marines, use tech lab rax for marauders Conc. Shells after Stim This allows you to either do a Stim Timing push on the Toss at about 6:45 into the game with about 5 marauders and 5 marines. It does leave you very open to a counter attack if it is held off however, so you opt to just use that as a mobile defense force instead. Less sturdy than bunkers against a good 4 Gate, but it does the trick if you have good micro on maps with open naturals. | ||
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Autunno
Brazil147 Posts
On January 22 2011 00:42 Synystyr wrote: Yeah I've found it's next to impossible to defend a 4 Gate on open naturals, so I choose to opt out of Bunker FEing on maps such as that. It can be done if you keep the three bunkers very close to each other, almost touching the command center to cover most of the area, but instead I prefer a different style of 2 Rax FE 10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Gas 15 Orbital 16 Depot Tech Lab on Barracks after first marine Marine + Stim after Tech Lab finishes Build a 2nd Barracks for marines, use tech lab rax for marauders Conc. Shells after Stim This allows you to either do a Stim Timing push on the Toss at about 6:45 into the game with about 5 marauders and 5 marines. It does leave you very open to a counter attack if it is held off however, so you opt to just use that as a mobile defense force instead. Less sturdy than bunkers against a good 4 Gate, but it does the trick if you have good micro on maps with open naturals. What I like about the build you just posted is that you don't commit yourself to too many production facilities to get this reasonable ammout of units out (which allows you to sort of FE) while having a force that is good enough to fend off early rushes. | ||
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MidgetHumper
United Kingdom280 Posts
Game 1 - Lost Temple - TvZ (WIN) Game 2 - Lost Temple - TvZ (WIN) Normally I'm the type of player that upon scouting a fast exspand I just go and kill it. Job done. BUT - This FE build is awesome! No more boring 10 min games for me. :D Side note: Whats with battle net putting me against 2 Zergs on the same map in a row? these seems to be a reacuring theme. Edit: I went 1 Rax FE then thru down 2 more Rax as soon as I could aford it after the FE. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
10 supply 12rax 14rax 15OC, 15 marine Instead of 10 supply 12rax 15OC, 15 marine 15/16 rax And have your 2nd rax much faster. The advantage to this is that in TvT, it straight-up gets you a win if you send 2-3 scvs and micro 5 marines well if they don't bunker, in TvZ, allows a lot of pressure, and in TvP, is much safer. If you want an example, check out Foxer v Rainbow on Delta Quadrant in GSL 3, I think? May have been GSL2. Is there any reason you wouldn't opt for the faster 2nd rax? | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On January 22 2011 03:25 iEchoic wrote: You can actually do the build: 10 supply 12rax 14rax 15OC, 15 marine Instead of 10 supply 12rax 15OC, 15 marine 15/16 rax And have your 2nd rax much faster. The advantage to this is that in TvT, it straight-up gets you a win if you send 2-3 scvs and micro 5 marines well if they don't bunker, in TvZ, allows a lot of pressure, and in TvP, is much safer. If you want an example, check out Foxer v Rainbow on Delta Quadrant in GSL 3, I think? May have been GSL2. Is there any reason you wouldn't opt for the faster 2nd rax? I prefer 12/15 Rax over 12/14 Rax simply because it's a little more economically friendly. It doesn't require cutting an SCV, or having to pull another separate SCV off the mineral line to build it. I do understand the strengths of opening with a 12/14 Rax, especially with the amount of early pressure you can deal and the mind games you can with it, but I've personally found 12/15 Rax to be a little more solid for the defensive play style that I favor. Some games I do go 12/14 Rax though and do a 5 marine push which I expand behind, and it can cause a fair bit of chaos to an unsuspecting Zerg if done correctly, giving you a nice economic lead. However it does leave you open to counter attacks, which I've had happen many times as well =[ I haven't actually tried a 12/14 Rax push in TvT like you mentioned....that actually sounds extremely powerful and I will absolutely have to give that a shot! Thanks! | ||
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Mr_Kyo
United States269 Posts
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
Anyway. This build certainly seems to work in all the ways you describe, I'm just wondering where the advantage in using it is. It seems like in each matchup you could use a slightly more specialized build to accomplish the same thing a bit quicker. Like for example, in TvP you can 1 rax FE just as safely. Or in TvZ you can 12/14 rax, as has been mentioned, and be able to expand behind it while pressuring. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On January 22 2011 03:58 Synystyr wrote: I prefer 12/15 Rax over 12/14 Rax simply because it's a little more economically friendly. It doesn't require cutting an SCV, or having to pull another separate SCV off the mineral line to build it. I do understand the strengths of opening with a 12/14 Rax, especially with the amount of early pressure you can deal and the mind games you can with it, but I've personally found 12/15 Rax to be a little more solid for the defensive play style that I favor. Some games I do go 12/14 Rax though and do a 5 marine push which I expand behind, and it can cause a fair bit of chaos to an unsuspecting Zerg if done correctly, giving you a nice economic lead. However it does leave you open to counter attacks, which I've had happen many times as well =[ I haven't actually tried a 12/14 Rax push in TvT like you mentioned....that actually sounds extremely powerful and I will absolutely have to give that a shot! Thanks! Well, 12/14 rax isn't any economically worse. You don't need to cut a SCV, and you do need to pull the SCV off the line faster, but the total amount of resources is no different because the total build time is the same (that SCV will also go mine faster). | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On January 22 2011 05:40 w_Ender_w wrote: A strategy forum post with Antisocialmunky and Synystyr is a strategy forum post that I will actually read. If you remember, Synystyr, I posted some replays in your banshee build thread. And I still love marine/raven in TvZ. Anyway. This build certainly seems to work in all the ways you describe, I'm just wondering where the advantage in using it is. It seems like in each matchup you could use a slightly more specialized build to accomplish the same thing a bit quicker. Like for example, in TvP you can 1 rax FE just as safely. Or in TvZ you can 12/14 rax, as has been mentioned, and be able to expand behind it while pressuring. The advantage in this is getting a second base up in a quick manner with optimal defence against most of the early 1 base pushes out there. I've kind of dropped 1 Rax FE in TvP simply because it's too hard to defend a 4 Gate with that in my personal experiences. In TvZ, if I opt for pressure with a 12/14 Rax, I find myself a little low on defence if my opponent was ready with an overwhelming amount of lings and susceptible to a counter attack. I tend to play defensively, so this type of opener suits my style, but of course it can be modified to fit anyone else's style as as well. On January 22 2011 05:41 iEchoic wrote: Well, 12/14 rax isn't any economically worse. You don't need to cut a SCV, and you do need to pull the SCV off the line faster, but the total amount of resources is no different because the total build time is the same (that SCV will also go mine faster). I suppose you bring up a valid point. I play defensively, so this opener flows more smoothly for me....I don't have super great micro that I can push with marines and keep my base maintained  I'll give 12/14 Rax expand a shot and get back to you guys on that | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On January 22 2011 05:40 w_Ender_w wrote: A strategy forum post with Antisocialmunky and Synystyr is a strategy forum post that I will actually read. If you remember, Synystyr, I posted some replays in your banshee build thread. And I still love marine/raven in TvZ. Anyway. This build certainly seems to work in all the ways you describe, I'm just wondering where the advantage in using it is. It seems like in each matchup you could use a slightly more specialized build to accomplish the same thing a bit quicker. Like for example, in TvP you can 1 rax FE just as safely. Or in TvZ you can 12/14 rax, as has been mentioned, and be able to expand behind it while pressuring. Thanks @Synyster: The thing that bugs me about this opening is that it feels like you're not securing enough of an advantage. I think this would be superior as a 1 rax FE. To this end, have you thought about a 1 Rax expand into 3 Bunkers except you fill each bunker with 1/2 marines to trick your opponent? Alternatively have you thought of 1 rax -> marines, get 1 fast gas(relatively), get a tech lab + conc, keep 1 guy in, and then pump out marauders for a little bit (to fill up the extra room) before returning to marines after you get a 2nd rax? Could be something like: 12 Rax 15 OC 16 Depot CC Ref -> Tech Lab + 2-3 marauders + Conc Should have 4 marines when you get marauders out. The presence of marauders could also trick your opponent to think you are doing some sort of big 2 base bio push instead or something I guess and while marines have high DPS, marauders have equally good DPS vs armored without as much waste to +1 armor. Plus getting slow with at 7 range is pretty lol. Interestingly enough, I think you can actually get a faster CC off a 1 rax CC by supply dropping instead of muling with the first 50 energy. I'm gonna test that in YABOT right now. Edit: Its not faster, you just can avoid blocking yourself by dropping it at 18 supply if you go rax OC CC. Which means you get a CC down faster by 20 seconds and you make the ~150 you lost on the mule after 8 SCVs from that CC :D. | ||
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Zavinout
Norway14 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
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