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On February 02 2011 00:12 ZeromuS wrote:
Interesting build the fact that you can salvage bunkers means you can salvage the 3 and add 2 more rax after the salvage while keeping up on macro. Though perhaps you should only incorporate the bunkers after scouting sice as pokebunny wrote, 4 rax fast stim off 1 rax fe is safe against a LOT of P builds.
Well I prefer heavy, heavy air play against Protoss, so the bunkers hold off most aggression, allowing me to tech safely. I don't want to commit myself into going bio with 4 Rax Stim, so this opener suits me much better. However, if you do prefer a heavy bio play style against Protoss, then that type of FE works much better than this one does. I personally just like how this opener gives you a great econ advantage and takes down 4 Gate soooo easily.
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This is great. I was actually thinking about starting a thread asking for details and/or replays on the 2-rax FE, since I haven't been liking my 1-base tank push in TvT. Low and behold, there's one right here!
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personally i dont think investing in three bunkers early would be such a good idea, unless they were one basing.
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Build is old like hell, btw, but ok good build, nothing to do with synyster.
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On February 02 2011 01:53 Moosy wrote:
personally i dont think investing in three bunkers early would be such a good idea, unless they were one basing.
I personally think it's a small investment to keep an expo running and getting an early econ lead. You can always salvage the bunkers after too to get your money back. It's a win win situation 
On February 02 2011 02:14 Pestilence wrote:
Build is old like hell, btw, but ok good build, nothing to do with synyster.
I never put my name on it  Just advocating it so that we can get more macro based games, rather than constant 1 base allins.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
For tvt at least, this feels like a build that is neither here or there. You open with a passive 2 rax that won't pressure and your tech is as delayed as possible. I don't think you can hold off a well executed reactor rine tank viking/medivac push if you don't even leave your base to intercept the tanks.
If you disagree, I'd be happy to play some games with you to see if you can hold the push.
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it's not true that it will degenerate to tank/viking with that opening. a suggestion is producing tons of barracks units and camp them outside your base or his base, and get ready to surround his inevitable tank push (if he went tank-ish type play)
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On February 02 2011 02:41 infinity21 wrote:
For tvt at least, this feels like a build that is neither here or there. You open with a passive 2 rax that won't pressure and your tech is as delayed as possible. I don't think you can hold off a well executed reactor rine tank viking/medivac push if you don't even leave your base to intercept the tanks.
If you disagree, I'd be happy to play some games with you to see if you can hold the push.
I guess I didnt mention this, but I do a 7 Marine-3 SCV push right as my expansion is starting and see if I can't do a little damage early on. Depending on my transition and scouting, I could possibly hold off an early 1 base push. I can't be sure though of course....I'd love to practice if you'd like to play a few games. Feel free to add me at Synystyr.193
On February 02 2011 03:38 threehundred wrote:
it's not true that it will degenerate to tank/viking with that opening. a suggestion is producing tons of barracks units and camp them outside your base or his base, and get ready to surround his inevitable tank push (if he went tank-ish type play)
I suppose that would work I do prefer bio play over tank/viking in TvT, I'm just so bad at the MU in general. Hopefully I'll learn how to break tank lines with bio one day :D From most of the TvTs I've played anyways, Tank/Viking always seems to be the go-to after the early game pushes so yeah....maybe it's just me >_<
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this actually seems pretty awesome, my only current build to really holding off the 4 wp is 3 rax or putting bunkers up. Im big on "2 bunkers is 200 minerals gone, now" even through u can get em back later.
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I prefer 12 Rax 14 Rax 15 OC with marine delayed ~5 seconds. Then I'll keep making rines and scvs constantly, expand when possible. Send first 4-5 rines to your opponent's base, harass around, don't lose them. If they're playing aggressive then pull these 4 back and play defensive (with a few bunkers as you suggest), else I'll keep sending rines to them and annoying them. I'll drop 1 bunker at base and retreat when I need to. Gives a nice blend of early game aggression with a nice eco oriented opening. Just don't take your gas too late, otherwise you'll have a whole mess of unupgraded marines without medivac support in midgame, that's not a fun situation.
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On February 02 2011 06:40 revy wrote:
I prefer 12 Rax 14 Rax 15 OC with marine delayed ~5 seconds. Then I'll keep making rines and scvs constantly, expand when possible. Send first 4-5 rines to your opponent's base, harass around, don't lose them. If they're playing aggressive then pull these 4 back and play defensive (with a few bunkers as you suggest), else I'll keep sending rines to them and annoying them. I'll drop 1 bunker at base and retreat when I need to. Gives a nice blend of early game aggression with a nice eco oriented opening. Just don't take your gas too late, otherwise you'll have a whole mess of unupgraded marines without medivac support in midgame, that's not a fun situation.
Oh yeah that reminds me! I actually do open 12-14 Rax now with a slightly delayed marine, just like you said. I updated the post to reflect that. Comments on this thread told me I should try that and I've found it to be the superior method to mine. The first marines are yours to choose to do what you want with. Sometimes I do a small marine poke with a couple SCVs, other times I just keep them around and play defensively. It's all up to you, but thanks for reminding me!
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Im going to be working to optimize this built just a little bit better.
At high levels of play, the 4gate push comes at 5:20, which is a little too early for this build to hold off..
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On February 02 2011 11:22 lilky wrote:
Im going to be working to optimize this built just a little bit better.
At high levels of play, the 4gate push comes at 5:20, which is a little too early for this build to hold off..
Cool cool Yeah a SUPER fast 4 Gate would do pretty damn well against this. Let me know if you figure anything out ^^
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Would this said super fast 4 gate involve only 1 gas?
12/14 rax is pretty sick on scrap station if i proxy the 2nd rax on the top of the nat ramp and float it down. It looks exactly like a 1 rax gasless expand unless you specifically scout there lol
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Australia326 Posts
Good guide overall.
Couple of things though:
Against Roach rush and 4 gate - you might be hard-pressed to defend. You state 6:30-7 as the key timing, that is more for 3-rax stim pushes and 'late' 4 gates. 4 gate 1 gas hits @ around 5:45-5:55 earliest, so be prepared to pull SCVs.
7RR hits even earlier than this - I remember in one the threads it had a theoretical time of 4:40 - factor in travel time to your base and something like 5:00-5:20 would be realistic.
Of course you can invest all your resources and time in holding off these 1-base attacks, as if you do - the game is technically won.
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I would think the main advantage of 2-rax FE is that if Toss goes 1-gate FE and u see it fast, or he does not have a sentry, u can potentially do an scv all-in (no sentry) or exp kill. Though only with 14 rax 2 though.
Dun build the bunkers unless he is obviously saving energy at nexus for warpgates. Or u already see him chronoing cybernetics, with gates coming in.
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I'm not convinced you can't hold off all early pressure only going a single rax before expo. As long as you are fast with your scv's, even half full bunkers can hold off pretty significant armies, and by the time a 4 gate hits you should have more than half full bunkers anyway, assuming you build at least one more barracks after the expo.
I play 1 rax FE all MU's all maps (have SoW/DQ x'd off) and whenever I lose to early pressure I can pinpoint where I should have played better. I've learned never to skimp on the bunkers, and it seems to work alright up to at least high diamond.
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On February 17 2011 09:30 Evantas wrote:
I would think the main advantage of 2-rax FE is that if Toss goes 1-gate FE and u see it fast, or he does not have a sentry, u can potentially do an scv all-in (no sentry) or exp kill. Though only with 14 rax 2 though.
Dun build the bunkers unless he is obviously saving energy at nexus for warpgates. Or u already see him chronoing cybernetics, with gates coming in.
I don't like all-ins. It's a coin flip at that point. I'd rather go toe to toe with macro and win that way. Especially with the transitions I have in TvP, I'm extremely confident I can win in the mid-lategame. I've learned that you shouldn't pass the bunkers up. Get at least one, because a well-microed 2 stalker poke sucks to deal with when your marines are slower and have less range than the stalkers.
I think the bunkers are a very small price to pay for staying alive in the mid game. With my transitions, I never need the 300 minerals during the early game phase, and I can always salvage the bunkers later. Better safe than sorry ^.-
On February 17 2011 09:45 eluv wrote:
I'm not convinced you can't hold off all early pressure only going a single rax before expo. As long as you are fast with your scv's, even half full bunkers can hold off pretty significant armies, and by the time a 4 gate hits you should have more than half full bunkers anyway, assuming you build at least one more barracks after the expo.
I play 1 rax FE all MU's all maps (have SoW/DQ x'd off) and whenever I lose to early pressure I can pinpoint where I should have played better. I've learned never to skimp on the bunkers, and it seems to work alright up to at least high diamond.
I used to play A LOT of 1 Rax FE, but a solid 4 Gate will crush through your bunkers, simply because you do not have enough firepower to shoot down the army before they die. Sure, you can pull SCVs to repair, but the 6 stalker 4 zealot 4 Gate just flat out outdpses the repairing. You're right thought about never skimping on the bunkers, if you FE, you need the to stay alive, unless you did a 2 Rax Stim expand xD. And I play in Mid masters if rank really matters. 2 Rax FE is the way to go vs Toss. Again, it's a very small economic loss to stay alive and get ahead in the early game.
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In light of the recent popularity of the iEchoic 2Fact2Port build, I've added some information on the best way to deal with that style of play in the post.
I've come to the realization that this opener is can be flimsy in the TvT matchup, so take my advice with a grain of salt. With proper scouting and preparation, you can still manage to pull this off however as long as you have the proper transitions.
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Nice Builds and replays, but if I see 3 bunkers in your natural, what stops me from just loading up in a dropship/warp prism and going for the main?
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EPT
