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Hey guys:
I'm a 2300~ point master leaguer.
I'm sure most of you are already very familiar with the 1 gas 4 gate build that often dominates PVP match ups and can be abused to great effect vs Z and teching T's as well.
I've been doing this build frequently in PVP and have had it used against me with great frequency as well. It's popularity is well warranted, it is a very powerful, easy to master build.
My question and topic for discussion revolves around the fact that I'm simply flat out bored of doing this build and wish to expand on my PVP skillset.
I feel that a lot of sentry oriented play can be killed by warping up the ramp with a nearby pylon. Robo play often gets crushed by the 1 gas 4 gate (in my experience) as well.
Any feedback would be much appreciated, I'm looking to improve my PVP but with safe builds. (1 gas 4 gate is too powerful imo)
Thanks in advance.
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Also, please don't mention stuff like k4g... we've all graduated from that I hope. ><
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I've been using 3 gate Blink stalkers to some effect. It is way micro intensive and lots of fun i also find it map dependent. On maps like Metalopolis its really difficult since theres only one way up and down. On JB and DQ its really shines since theres 2 ways up to the main. You can also do a quick DT switch if you need to. But this build really fails if you dont do some sort of damage because its sort of all-in. you dont build probes so you can afford stalkers.
Another strategy i have heard of is to open phoenix i personally haven't used it but theres a thread about it.
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I hope you used the search function before making this topic, as I know I've tried to answer this before.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Adel's_No_Gas_PvP
Also go check out Kiwikaki's PvP replays where he goes for a 2 gate robo followed up by and expansion and voidrays. The zealot immortal voidray composition does very well against colossus builds. It's also great to follow this up later in the game with a mothership and some pheonix for obs sniping. To keep safe vs 4 gate builds you save up your chrono after the second chronoboost on your nexus, and chrono units out of your first gateway. Just imitate Kiwikaki.
A lot of people also have been going three gate robo. There are other undocumented variations of two gate pushes into expand builds similar to the Adel style builds. Adel also has used a cool 2 gate expand I saw on Jungle Basin, though haven't really recorded the build order or studied the replay much. That should be easy to find on sc2-replays.net.
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2 gate robo is pretty safe so long as you get 2 sentries (from gateways, not warpgates) before the 6 min mark. if he 4gates you then continue to warp in sentries as they run out of juice. you'll be ahead in eco (gas especially) and probably army if he commits to it for more than just the initial 2 rounds of warpgates
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well, the link that joseph123 posted and the 3 gate blink stalker play are both pretty all in. You can't really expand off of them since you commit a lot of resourses and cut probes to make them effectively hit timings. with the 2gate robo i suggested, you can either tech (if the guy 4gates you and you should be able to hold it off with sentries unless it's scrap station..) or expand if the guy doesn't appear to be 4gating or trying to hit a 2 colo timing push (in that all of his gas is going towards colo.. maybe 1-2 sentry, 1-2 stalker, rest are zealots)
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If you're bored, try 1 Gate Fast Expand. It's a real challange to hold a 4 gate...
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On January 19 2011 07:55 Volka wrote:
If you're bored, try 1 Gate Fast Expand. It's a real challange to hold a 4 gate...
Looking for safe builds.
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Then do your normal stuff but expand 
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I'm in the same boat as you.
Every PvP seems to be 4 gate or die.
What I find works quite well is a 2 gas 4 gate contain builds. Basically you 4 gate so you can be safe from the threat of your opponent doing the same. If you do get 4 gated, you can defend, and if not you can build a bunch of sentries and contain your opponent at his ramp while you expand.
I realize you're looking for alternatives to a 4 gate, and I'm suggesting a 4 gate. But in reality you're not straight up pumping units from it, you're only doing it be safe. As soon as you know you're safe, expand.
A couple of notes about this build. If they do not attack and you're not able to scout, you need detection ASAP because DT timings are very soon after 4 gate timings, but generally you'll have no problem with that.
On maps with easy to defend naturals you can also do a more standard 3 gate expand - defend your opponent's 4 gate, then expand. But the problem there is you can get overrun if you mis-control, and you risk being contained yourself.
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On January 19 2011 07:45 CecilSunkure wrote:I hope you used the search function before making this topic, as I know I've tried to answer this before. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Adel's_No_Gas_PvPAlso go check out Kiwikaki's PvP replays where he goes for a 2 gate robo followed up by and expansion and voidrays. The zealot immortal voidray composition does very well against colossus builds. It's also great to follow this up later in the game with a mothership and some pheonix for obs sniping. To keep safe vs 4 gate builds you save up your chrono after the second chronoboost on your nexus, and chrono units out of your first gateway. Just imitate Kiwikaki. A lot of people also have been going three gate robo. There are other undocumented variations of two gate pushes into expand builds similar to the Adel style builds. Adel also has used a cool 2 gate expand I saw on Jungle Basin, though haven't really recorded the build order or studied the replay much. That should be easy to find on sc2-replays.net.
I like this, thanks Cecil. I'll make sure to take a good look at some of Kiwikaki's PVP replays. ^^
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If you want to sidestep 4 Gate, a good way to do it is early pressure. 2 Gate Zealot or 1 Gate constant-chrono make it very hard for the other guy to spend chrono on warp gate. Adel's build is decent too.
I'm a fan of Gate, Pylon, Gas, Zealot (chrono), Core, Zealot (chrono), Stalker (chrono). Transition after that however you like.
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On January 19 2011 08:55 Shlowpoke wrote:
If you want to sidestep 4 Gate, a good way to do it is early pressure. 2 Gate Zealot or 1 Gate constant-chrono make it very hard for the other guy to spend chrono on warp gate. Adel's build is decent too.
I'm a fan of Gate, Pylon, Gas, Zealot (chrono), Core, Zealot (chrono), Stalker (chrono). Transition after that however you like.
Thanks shlowpoke.. do you mind telling me at which supplies you choose to do this sequence?
Gate: 12?
Pylon: ?
Gas: 14?
Zealot: 17?
Core: 18?
Zealot: ?
Stalker?
Thanks.
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Make sure to check out Tylers stream - he mentioned yesterday that he is currently working on a 2 gate robo PvP build!
Yesterday I've seen him do a wall-off in PvP...counter-intuitive? Yes, definitely. Does it work vs 4 gate? Could be. Because the major problem with the 4-gate is the warp inside your base. Now you could really lol at your opponent if you just have buildings at the ledges were they normally warp in and units standing on top of the ramp. This way warp-in space is denied. (NOT vision, but vision doesn't help you much there, unless you try to pick off a gateway with 6 stalkers...which takes ages).
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On January 20 2011 00:28 QTIP. wrote:Thanks shlowpoke.. do you mind telling me at which supplies you choose to do this sequence?
Sure.
9 Pylon
13 Gate (scout)
14 Pylon (queue a probe first)
15 Assimilator (@100 minerals after queued probe)
17 Zealot (cb)
19 Core (3 in gas)
20 Zealot (cb)
23 Pylon
24 Stalker (cb)
Warp Gate @50 gas
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The only build that can stop a 4 gate except a 4 gate variation itself is a 2 / 3 gate robo build imo.
The trick imo is to make 1 sentry, a few zealots and mostly stalker with a immortal first from the robo.
In case the 4 gate does come knocking on the door you have to split his army with your first forcefield, ie. try to get 1 or 2 units on your side of the ramp and the rest of his army on the bottom.
Then focus those units with your ranged units etc. Keep cutting his army in half everytime he gets up the ramp.
It isn't the easiest thing in the world to hold off the push with it but it's possible and the robo strat is the only strat that's reasonable around the field.
Never make too many sentries though, you can't reliably keep him from going into your base with them, you just want to cut his army off so you can kill a few off his units everytime.
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On January 19 2011 07:55 Volka wrote:
If you're bored, try 1 Gate Fast Expand. It's a real challange to hold a 4 gate...
My crowning achievement in starcraft was holding off a 4gate while 1 gate expanding, on steppes of war.
Sure it was like a platinum level game, but it was glorious.
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Adel's 2-gate expansion is roughly the following;
9 Pylon
13 Gate, 13 Scout
15 Pylon
17 Gate
Four Zealots, Gas on ~20 and Core on ~24. After that you push with the first four Zealots, aiming for a timing as soon as possible after 4:30 then follow it up with two Stalkers. Sometimes you can win the game by chronoing more units there and then because he got really greedy; other times you just sack a few Zealots to get a worker lead.
After that, you either expand and add 3 more Gates plus a Forge, or put up the Gateways first if you're feeling less comfortable. Cannon at expo choke and you're sorted. Transition into Blink Stalker nastiness.
But you're in Master and so am I; you should know that there's no super-safe build in PvP that isn't a 4-gate; you can 12-gate chrono save or defensive 4-gate and be contained, but either way the safe builds are all variants of 4-gate. If you want to deviate in order to enjoy the matchup (which is fine) then there are plenty of builds you can do - any kind of 3-gate Sentry-heavy tech will be something else that can survive and beat a 4-gate if the other guy makes some mistakes. Just don't pretend there's a safe non-4-gate build out there. We'd all be doing it if it existed.
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Well a small change I like is starting with 3gate robo, getting the third gateway after the robo. If they 4gate hold it and from there either expand or throw down a 4th gateway and attack with the immortals you left these should give you the advantage you need to overpower them. I have been noticing that when two players are 4gateing and are equal skill the one defending almost always wins.
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My favorite PvP strategy is to get blink stalkers and expand in opposite corners of the map. When they move out to kill you, you blink in and trade bases. Your infrastructure will be spread out, however, while theirs will be clumped together, so they'll take heavier damage in the base trade while you'll have some mining and production.
There are a lot of ways to get to that point and you'll have to adapt to a bunch of scouting cues to figure out how quickly you can afford to invest in tech and economy, but it's a strong gameplan if you have good control.
Note that this strategy can start with a 3 gate blink opening where you don't cut probes. The attack will therefore be a little later and lighter than the all-in variant. The timing attack won't do a lot of damage against safe builds, but you'll have a good shot to win a macro game.
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On January 20 2011 01:53 Markwerf wrote:
The only build that can stop a 4 gate except a 4 gate variation itself is a 2 / 3 gate robo build imo
Way to ignore everyone else and give false information.
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On January 20 2011 05:23 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 01:53 Markwerf wrote:
The only build that can stop a 4 gate except a 4 gate variation itself is a 2 / 3 gate robo build imo Way to ignore everyone else and give false information.
It's not *that* false. You can try to hold a hard 4 gate with 3 gates, but it's pretty damn hard.
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The safest but very powerful build in PvP is still 2-gate robo + 1 gate. Don't think about stuff like "even with forcefields, he can warp-in units on my ramp!!!!", because it's not true if you can micro. There are a lot of things you can do with sentries, like double-FF. Then you can easily expand and transition into either immortals (if they went blink stalkers) or collossi.
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On January 19 2011 07:55 Volka wrote:
If you're bored, try 1 Gate Fast Expand. It's a real challange to hold a 4 gate...
Is it even possible to hold off a proper 4gate with a FE?
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On January 20 2011 05:46 PatouPower wrote:
The safest but very powerful build in PvP is still 2-gate robo + 1 gate. Don't think about stuff like "even with forcefields, he can warp-in units on my ramp!!!!", because it's not true if you can micro. There are a lot of things you can do with sentries, like double-FF. Then you can easily expand and transition into either immortals (if they went blink stalkers) or collossi.
3gate/robo was extremely good against 4gate for a while... The problem is that it takes 2 forcefields to hold a normal ramp now with things like zealot warp-ins on the ramp and/or high ground. This means that if you intend to delay a 4gate you will have to invest ALL of your gas into sentries. This will leave you with a pitful army and no tech. He can just sit at your door and force you to waste all the forcefields and then engage against your weaker army.
As it's been said before, the only safe builds in PvP right now are 4gate variants.
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the problem with going 2 or 3 gate robo is that people that 4 gate will push up your ramp with their zealot and stalker to either kill your sentry that just came out or to make you use a forcefield, and then you're outnumbered
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You'll have a lot easier time in PvP if you get used to just 4 gating defensively if you scout them saving chronos. You can easily transition into a blink midgame since you'll have a bunch of stalkers anyways so it doesn't really put you too far behind vs just opening 3 gate blink. You just won't do as much damage with your initial poke.
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On January 20 2011 02:19 AdrenalGBR wrote:
Adel's 2-gate expansion is roughly the following;
9 Pylon
13 Gate, 13 Scout
15 Pylon
17 Gate
Four Zealots, Gas on ~20 and Core on ~24. After that you push with the first four Zealots, aiming for a timing as soon as possible after 4:30 then follow it up with two Stalkers. Sometimes you can win the game by chronoing more units there and then because he got really greedy; other times you just sack a few Zealots to get a worker lead.
After that, you either expand and add 3 more Gates plus a Forge, or put up the Gateways first if you're feeling less comfortable. Cannon at expo choke and you're sorted. Transition into Blink Stalker nastiness.
But you're in Master and so am I; you should know that there's no super-safe build in PvP that isn't a 4-gate; you can 12-gate chrono save or defensive 4-gate and be contained, but either way the safe builds are all variants of 4-gate. If you want to deviate in order to enjoy the matchup (which is fine) then there are plenty of builds you can do - any kind of 3-gate Sentry-heavy tech will be something else that can survive and beat a 4-gate if the other guy makes some mistakes. Just don't pretend there's a safe non-4-gate build out there. We'd all be doing it if it existed.
Thanks for this post Adrenal, I do agree with you, there isn't anything that is guaranteed to repel a 4gate that isn't a 4 gate.
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Sentry play is safe if you scout for that nearby pylon and know it's there. Just FF the bottom of the ramp without letting any units up. After 1-2 FFs of stalling you probably have enough stuff of your own to kill a unit or two on the top of the ramp and the 4 warping in units without much trouble.
My opener on most maps and matchups these days is 2gas, gate-core-gate, from this point I either 2gate expand, 2gate tech, or add on 1 more gateway based on what I scout. I also save chrono boosts, ideally for warpgate but I can use them for early units if I scout something like a 2rax or 2gate opener. I stopped going 1gas as toss as soon as I realized how ridiculous Sentries are. You can push with mass Sentry for FF in many cases, and you can almost always defend better with a trillion Sentries.
That crucial 5-8 minute phase of the game feels soooo much safer when you have 3+ sentries chilling at the top of your ramp. I'm a macro-oriented, defensive player, so being on fast 2gas and teching or expanding on minimal gateways while still being safe is my ideal early game position. The biggest problem I have with this build is dealing with Terrans who deny scouting effectively with, e.g., a low ground wall-off; I need to go fast robo to deal with cloakshee rushes, but I need to add on gateways to deal with a 4rax all-in. Such is the cost of not just going for the T1.5 1base all-in myself every game, I guess. If you win the early scouting micro war and know exactly what your opponent is up to, this opener is insanely powerful and flexible. I suck at food-based BOs but I'll do my best at one:
9pylon
3 boosts on probes starting just as the pylon finishes
~10-11 scout
13gateway
14gas
16pylon
17(?)core (as soon as gateway finishes)
stalker
20gas
20-22-ish second gateway
from there it changes a lot depending on early scouting, but if you see pretty standard play and neither plan on all-ining nor expect your opponent to all-in anytime soon, you want to get up to at least 3 Sentries ASAP and then either tech or expand based on your second probe scout. You can also just transition into a 4gate with a high sentry count and a much easier time squeezing in an expo or robo without cutting too much unit production. Making sentries mean spending less minerals, and not making sentries means banking up some gas for a tech switch. You still end up saturated on 1base of minerals around the time you start producing constantly, anyway.
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EPT
