|
On January 19 2011 05:26 Barca wrote:To all you Toss, here's me beating this build with a 1 gate FE, the mixed tech and lack of army size makes it pretty easy to stop ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-181878.jpg) This is the epitome of gimmicky Terran builds >.<
You gotta be joking...
He made a Thor - IT HAS TO BE EXACT SAME BUILD, RIGHT?
Assuming no aggresion:
The OP's build at 11:00 has:
2 Thors (1 less than in your replay)
38 Marines (29 more...)
1 Raven (same)
0 Banshee (1 less)
1 Medivac (1 more)
It also heavily cuts SCVs while in your replay your opponent had 36 SCVs. He basically sent you 3 naked Thors.
You went some kind of gimmicky build too, 33 probes off 2 bases at 11 minutes? Even though you cut probes hard this would just crush you. You had 10 Stalkers, 10 Zealots and 4 Sentries.
|
On January 19 2011 04:06 Belha wrote:
Terrans should really really stop focusing on "all in" recipes, and try to improve as overall players, Jinro style (and eventually you will get results, as Jinro).
The build, as many others terrans all-ins (full rines, maka raks, tank-rine-bunker, cloack-banshee rush, 3raks, polt, thor rush....jesus) sounds strong, but that does not detract the fact that those builds eventually will be patched in some way (or the game will totally fail with the time).
A maka rax isn't an all in. A cloack banshee rush isn't an all in. Why are you generalizing terran players? There are so many toss players who all in like crazy, most of them got to diamond that way. 4 gate, 3 gate stargate, 3 gate robo, fe into 6 gate all in pvz, according to your logic DT rush is all in aswell. All ins have their place in this game and usually are a response to a fast expand. They won't be patched if they can be beaten.
|
I have encountered this plenty of times as protoss alredy actually.(probably not this spesific build but a pretty similar one, 2 thors and a raven + marine push)
|
Oh yay more Terran all ins for me to worry about.
Just when I thought PvP was bad.
|
Meh . . seems like a pretty typical blind timing one base all in build.
|
On January 19 2011 05:56 Cano wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 05:26 Barca wrote:To all you Toss, here's me beating this build with a 1 gate FE, the mixed tech and lack of army size makes it pretty easy to stop This is the epitome of gimmicky Terran builds >.< You gotta be joking... He made a Thor - IT HAS TO BE EXACT SAME BUILD, RIGHT? Assuming no aggresion: The OP's build at 11:00 has: 2 Thors (1 less than in your replay) 38 Marines ( 29 more...) 1 Raven (same) 0 Banshee (1 less) 1 Medivac (1 more) It also heavily cuts SCVs while in your replay your opponent had 36 SCVs. You went some kind of gimmicky build too, 33 probes off 2 bases at 11 minutes? Even though you cut probes hard this would just crush you. You had 10 Stalkers, 10 Zealots and 4 Sentries.
Not exactly the same build, you're right. That rep is a couple weeks old, but it's just an example that Thor/Raven/SCV can be stopped. Take that for what it is.
And yeah, cutting probes is necessary when you scout your opponent doing an all-in. Sooo thank you for complimenting my response?
|
^ That just means that this build would be even more powerful if you didn't response properly... And yo can't assume you will response properly 100% of the time.
And do you still fail to see that 29 marines > Thor and a Banshee?
For the record, I never used this build, I just see the numbers.
|
kinda similar to immvp's all-ins agianst trickster
|
On January 19 2011 06:06 Cano wrote:
^ That just means how powerful this build would be if you didn't reponse properly...
And do you still fail to see that 29 marines > Thor and a Banshee?
Yup, 1 base raven all-ins are pretty powerful against Toss if you don't respond properly. I could have told you that myself, I still struggle with them all the time. Half of the GSL TvPs consist of them, it's ridiculous.
Yeah, 29 marines > Thor, but Banshee > medivac. I think I could have held off still though, marines are pretty susceptible to Force Field with only 1 thor out on the field.
|
TvP is a bit tiresome with all these all-ins. It sure works great and I havn´t figured out a proper counter yet. Fast tech to HT or something, dunno if they get out in time.
|
I hate fighting this. I've lost at least 35 games to this strategy and it drove me up a wall, so when I see it I usually smashbreak the front becasue 1/1/1 builds are amazingly fragile to 3 gate stargate or any other angry opening push that's not centered around the chokepoint of the main's ramp.
After unsuccessfully breaking a few truly good Terrans I though of how to combat it more efficiently, and then noticed it was almost totally map dependent. The key to killing this build is making cannons. I know, it sounds dumb but cannons, gateway units, and zealot/sentry are what generally keep me alive against this. Even worse than this push is when they delay the push after noticing a 1 gate expand, expand themselves and push out slightly later but right before any meaningful Protoss tech can get up... I'm going crazy versus this build... anyone got a cost effective/fun counter to it?
|
On January 19 2011 05:59 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 04:06 Belha wrote:
Terrans should really really stop focusing on "all in" recipes, and try to improve as overall players, Jinro style (and eventually you will get results, as Jinro).
The build, as many others terrans all-ins (full rines, maka raks, tank-rine-bunker, cloack-banshee rush, 3raks, polt, thor rush....jesus) sounds strong, but that does not detract the fact that those builds eventually will be patched in some way (or the game will totally fail with the time). A maka rax isn't an all in. A cloack banshee rush isn't an all in. Why are you generalizing terran players? There are so many toss players who all in like crazy, most of them got to diamond that way. 4 gate, 3 gate stargate, 3 gate robo, fe into 6 gate all in pvz, according to your logic DT rush is all in aswell. All ins have their place in this game and usually are a response to a fast expand. They won't be patched if they can be beaten.
Well, it all depends on how you look at it, if you ALL OUT RUSH Dt's then you are actually all in'ing... because if your opponent scouts you just as the Darkshrine is beginning then you SHOULD lose. All-in is just a general term for build you SHOULD lose with if your opponent is competent at reacting to what they scout with. If a Terran scouts my slow non-probe cutting DT push and I simply use them to harass a little and get map control to expand it obviously isn't an all in.
The difference between the two is the thought behind the build all in being I WILL KILL YOU WITH THIS NOW and simple tactic being I WILL DO THIS TO TRY AND EVENTUALLY SOMEHOW KILL YOU.
|
PDD is good but i think you're a little over-keen on it.
pretty much any 'cute' trick such as PDD or EMP can be compensated by pure numbers and spamming lower tech from numerous structures.
PDD keep your units alive longer, but larger number of units will also keep your units alive longer due to higher dps and collective hp.
|
This all-in is actually very weak becomes it comes SOOOO SLOW. The FE toss will have a HUGE army advantage over you by the time you attack. It has virtually zero chance of beating a decent toss that spends all of his money.
|
I still don't understand why people say mule is OP...it is needed to compete with chrono boosted nexus's...and the cool down time...it takes 50 energy to call down a mule as it is. The only way your going to be able to call down 10 is if you do the 4OC build vs Z, and that build although fun can be very detrimental to winning a match.
|
sounds like the tasteless build but without the banshee you use thor... to be honest if you bunker up and tech with that all in toss can just 1 gate expo on you kinda like what tester did to immvp but what made immvp successful on his all in was that he harassed. So you guys should consider making helions or something and then go for the all in.. just an idea or just watch immvp do the all in.. thor kinda takes very long to build though and immortals might wipe it out.. i still favor banshee over thor because of harass opportunities and toss anti-air = stalkers so pdd + banshee is very powerful
|
1 gate FE should rape this. your push is just too late to stop macro play from Toss
|
I've been using it today, my first day playing random and I beat a 2500 diamond toss with it and I'm nowhere close to being confident with T, my macro and micro are really meh. It's actually really strong.
Edit: I apologize for playing that race 
|
sentrys for guardian shield + armor upgrade and immortals. okay he can do some drop ship micro with the thors (works perfectly against colossi) but if the thors are gone nothing can kill the immortals. well 100 marine shots can not looking at the shields. And with zealots he won't be able to snipe the sentrys providing guardian shields. You also can be mean and halluzinate air units that mess up the thors ai, when used right.
if you feel keen enough get a prism and warp in a few zealots to kill the workers when he pushed out(warning he may pull off all is workers then.) another option is to put them up the ramp and block any marine reinforcements. (or just have a few ready near the enemy base to run in hehe)
Thors is probably always a good thing though as most tosses think they can't do anything without forcefields.
Just give other stuff a try 2 phoenix to snipe the raven or banshee at the starport after you lurred the marines to the mineral line, by sniping the mule the phoenix already payed forthemself (he will fear continous sniping and go over to drop supply to save atleast a few res).
sure people will get used to it if its used often, and build the starport at their mineral line so they will be save against phoenix sniping. But thats why there are so many things you can use for harassment. (loves harassing with toss and zerg terran is way harder to harass successfully at the moment)
|
There is a pretty solid formula you can follow for TvP. If you want a 1 base all-in, go 1/1/1 then add two more rax. Build pretty much any units you can afford (1 raven is a good idea). Attack. Pull some SCVs. It's the kind of thing that works to up your ladder rating until you hit people who know how to handle all-ins, then you probably lose every game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
