While banelings are designed to be highly effective against light biological units, the use of clever marine splitting (best refined by MarineKing) has blunted their strength in the ZvT midgame. I'd like to share a method I've been using against marine splits which seems quite effective.
Zerg players have learned that it is often more effective to tell banelings to move towards enemy units, rather than a-move, so they can get into the middle of the enemy units before exploding, rather than just hitting those units on the edge. This is especially important if the enemy splits off a few sacrificial units to save the main ball.
However, when strong terran players slice their main bio group into small groups and fan them out, simply moving the banelings as a group becomes ineffective. One potential solution is to slice the baneling group in response, moving small numbers of banelings towards each clump of marines. In practice, I haven't found this method to be particularly effective, partly because it is hard to predict exactly how the terran player will slice their main group.
One new method I've been trying is to first move the banelings towards the main enemy group. If the opponent now splits the marines, wait until the banelings are approximately equidistant from the split groups. At this point, a-move the banelings further along their trajectory. The result is the banelings auto-split to attack all nearby groups of marines.
Pictures of a relatively simple example are shown below, where a terran splits their main group in two.
Frame 1: Banelings are on move command. Frame 2: Terran splits group in two. Frame 3: Banelings are told to a-move. Frame 4: Banelings auto-split, hitting both groups.
Against a terran player who is very good at micro, the effectiveness of banelings is still greatly reduced, but in my own experience, I have found this move/a-move method to be better than any other. I thought other zerg players might find this technique useful, and I'd be interested to hear whether others have tried similar methods.
This is feasible if your opponent is both good at micro AND using only marines. If he fans out his marauders while pulling his marines back your banelings will be wasted ( or used inefficiently, even if marauders are clumped up it takes 7 banelings to kill one group of them).
On January 17 2011 11:31 Subztance wrote: This is feasible if your opponent is both good at micro AND using only marines.
Thing is, I too have been finding that a lot of terran players are just going mass marine and medivac. Although you might think it weird... it's easier to restock marines than lings--> banelings.
Not to mention that 3-3 Marines with combat shield and stim become very deadly in mid-late game.
You're quite right. In those cases, I generally find it best to move the banelings past the wall of marauders before trying to a-move split. Often in practice, one has to combine manual splitting of the banelings with move/a-move. If a terran is extremely good at micro, the banelings will be less effective no matter what because most of the splash damage is lost. However, this technique helps to ensure that the banelings at least pursue multiple different targets.
The counter to marines is not banelings, but speedlings. This is something that few zergs have caught on to, for some reason, but the ones who have, do exceedingly well. I used to destroy a few Z players I play with a lot until I tipped them off to this and now they do just fine.
40 speedlings 10 banelings
is better than:
20 banelings 20 speedlings
Even though the first option costs less. If you have any banelings above 3-4, you have to split your marines. Once you split your marines, speedlings rape them.
Note that I'm not saying go pure speedling - you need some banes, but it's much better to have closer to 20% banes than 50%. I outright kill zergs who take their whole zergling ball and hold the baneling hotkey, but I had to switch out of pure bio because of the speedling massers.
This also allows you to just a-move, because if they split, then you're gonna win anyway.
Counting the number of units on your images, you have like 21 bannelings, against 22 marines and 8 marauders (really difficult to tell).
At the end, there are 6 marines left, and 8 marauders...
You don't look cost effective here.
Maybe it's simply because the terran army value was higher, or maybe it's because bannelings aren't cost effective against mmm on creep. But your example doesn't look so convincing. It definitely need more testing.
I saw Destiny's stream a while back, and he used a hilarious analogy for his tactic vs mass marine ball with no tank support. You are going to rape him. Your dick is your banelings and your hands are the speedlings. You have 2 hands, and one dick, so you need a 2:1 ratio, speedlings to banelings. Your opponent sees the rape coming, so he runs away. So what do you do? You take your hands, and grab the marines to keep them from running away, aka, have your speedlings do a run-by surround on the marines. The purpose of the speedlings isn't to kill the marines, it's to keep them immobile long enough for your rape-train to move in.
On January 17 2011 21:53 Sm3agol wrote: I saw Destiny's stream a while back, and he used a hilarious analogy for his tactic vs mass marine ball with no tank support. You are going to rape him. Your dick is your banelings and your hands are the speedlings. You have 2 hands, and one dick, so you need a 2:1 ratio, speedlings to banelings. Your opponent sees the rape coming, so he runs away. So what do you do? You take your hands, and grab the marines to keep them from running away, aka, have your speedlings do a run-by surround on the marines. The purpose of the speedlings isn't to kill the marines, it's to keep them immobile long enough for your rape-train to move in.
Holy sh*t that's hilarious but hang on ''your oppnent sees the rape coming, so HE runs away'' see the irregularity here but if this is within the context of the american prison system I fully understand.
But seriously how does this deal with marauder shielding and/or stutter stepping?
On January 17 2011 21:53 Sm3agol wrote: I saw Destiny's stream a while back, and he used a hilarious analogy for his tactic vs mass marine ball with no tank support. You are going to rape him. Your dick is your banelings and your hands are the speedlings. You have 2 hands, and one dick, so you need a 2:1 ratio, speedlings to banelings. Your opponent sees the rape coming, so he runs away. So what do you do? You take your hands, and grab the marines to keep them from running away, aka, have your speedlings do a run-by surround on the marines. The purpose of the speedlings isn't to kill the marines, it's to keep them immobile long enough for your rape-train to move in.
How does the analogy evolve if he splits his forces? Is he considered to be spreading 'em? xD
In all seriousness, I'm now going to remember that in the middle of a game, crack up laughing, and then lose my natural to the MM ball because my micro went to hell. :D
On January 17 2011 21:53 Sm3agol wrote: I saw Destiny's stream a while back, and he used a hilarious analogy for his tactic vs mass marine ball with no tank support. You are going to rape him. Your dick is your banelings and your hands are the speedlings. You have 2 hands, and one dick, so you need a 2:1 ratio, speedlings to banelings. Your opponent sees the rape coming, so he runs away. So what do you do? You take your hands, and grab the marines to keep them from running away, aka, have your speedlings do a run-by surround on the marines. The purpose of the speedlings isn't to kill the marines, it's to keep them immobile long enough for your rape-train to move in.
On January 17 2011 21:53 Sm3agol wrote: I saw Destiny's stream a while back, and he used a hilarious analogy for his tactic vs mass marine ball with no tank support. You are going to rape him. Your dick is your banelings and your hands are the speedlings. You have 2 hands, and one dick, so you need a 2:1 ratio, speedlings to banelings. Your opponent sees the rape coming, so he runs away. So what do you do? You take your hands, and grab the marines to keep them from running away, aka, have your speedlings do a run-by surround on the marines. The purpose of the speedlings isn't to kill the marines, it's to keep them immobile long enough for your rape-train to move in.
How does the analogy evolve if he splits his forces? Is he considered to be spreading 'em? xD
In all seriousness, I'm now going to remember that in the middle of a game, crack up laughing, and then lose my natural to the MM ball because my micro went to hell. :D
Splitting up is analogous to just spreading out so wide that you wouldn't even feel it with your dick, so you just shove your entire fist inside.
Basically if you go mass marine medivac vs a 2:1 speedling/baneling ratio at ~equal cost, then you lose. Send in the speedlings first, and if they split, then they get ripped by the speedlings. If they stutter, then the speedlings will eventually get a surround, and then the banelings will catch up and rape them en masse. If they just stand there in a ball then they just get raped. Oh, and the key is using move command and stop. A+moving your speedlings = lose. You have to run your speedlings past them and press stop, then a-move to keep them from stutter stepping/splitting. Done correctly, mass marines have no chance.
Yeah, it amazes me whenever I see any zerg chasing marines with just banelings. A lot of players just dont see to realize for some reason that while banelings are great against marines, banelings are by far not a counter to marines with micro. Zergling-baneling, or infestor baneling, that is a good counter to marines, and marine maruader balls. Just baneling? Terrible against microed marines.
yeah you need more lings so he won't shoot and run through the lings. I like my blue flame hellions behind my marines so if the lings try a surround they get melted running straight into the flames. Its a nice trap. But i also like the pre marine and tank splitting, as it builds up a huge defend position and banelings and lings kind of become and never get enough marines for the mutas to do damage.
as it goes for utilizing banelings. Drops and burrow helps if you can get him easily moving. Possibly at a ramp at a backwater expo that has spines so he will need more then a few marines. Positions he won't scan hehe. Other then that I am thankful for every zerg using not more then 3 control groups. I mean 4 banelings groups (even magic boxed or a roach inside and ahead to take tank shots for the lazy people) no chance in splitting marines against this. And the work is still far higher for the terran.
Holy sh*t that's hilarious but hang on ''your oppnent sees the rape coming, so HE runs away'' see the irregularity here but if this is within the context of the american prison system I fully understand.
You homophobes sure ruin alot of good jokes don't you?
On January 18 2011 02:29 FeyFey wrote: yeah you need more lings so he won't shoot and run through the lings. I like my blue flame hellions behind my marines so if the lings try a surround they get melted running straight into the flames. Its a nice trap. But i also like the pre marine and tank splitting, as it builds up a huge defend position and banelings and lings kind of become and never get enough marines for the mutas to do damage.
as it goes for utilizing banelings. Drops and burrow helps if you can get him easily moving. Possibly at a ramp at a backwater expo that has spines so he will need more then a few marines. Positions he won't scan hehe. Other then that I am thankful for every zerg using not more then 3 control groups. I mean 4 banelings groups (even magic boxed or a roach inside and ahead to take tank shots for the lazy people) no chance in splitting marines against this. And the work is still far higher for the terran.
Farking this. So many zergs complain about how marines can abuse their counter, when by "counter", they mean they should be able to just a+ move their counter at their opponent and win instantly. Really good marine splitting micro will require really good baneling/zergling micro to defeat. How about splitting your oncoming banelings to attack the separate little groups he's splitting off? People accused terrans of being a movers. Good Ts are getting into some really effective and hard micro, and now zergs whine because they'll have to micro equally well to keep up. Soon some amazing zerg player will dominate some marine/medivac ball really hard with great sling/bling micro on some big stream, and then it will be back to the drawing board for Ts.
Mass marines poses an interesting problem for Terran players. Generally, speedlings > marines until the marine ball gets large enough, at which point the surface area to DPS ratio of the marine ball prevents speedlings from being effective. When this happens, banelings and their AoE become very effective. The only way to keep marines from dying to banelings is to split them, but doing this increases the attackable surface area of the terran army, which allows speedlings to shine once more.
I think the mistake a lot of Zerg players make is morphing too many banelings.
On January 18 2011 02:29 FeyFey wrote: yeah you need more lings so he won't shoot and run through the lings. I like my blue flame hellions behind my marines so if the lings try a surround they get melted running straight into the flames. Its a nice trap. But i also like the pre marine and tank splitting, as it builds up a huge defend position and banelings and lings kind of become and never get enough marines for the mutas to do damage.
as it goes for utilizing banelings. Drops and burrow helps if you can get him easily moving. Possibly at a ramp at a backwater expo that has spines so he will need more then a few marines. Positions he won't scan hehe. Other then that I am thankful for every zerg using not more then 3 control groups. I mean 4 banelings groups (even magic boxed or a roach inside and ahead to take tank shots for the lazy people) no chance in splitting marines against this. And the work is still far higher for the terran.
Farking this. So many zergs complain about how marines can abuse their counter, when by "counter", they mean they should be able to just a+ move their counter at their opponent and win instantly. Really good marine splitting micro will require really good baneling/zergling micro to defeat. How about splitting your oncoming banelings to attack the separate little groups he's splitting off? People accused terrans of being a movers. Good Ts are getting into some really effective and hard micro, and now zergs whine because they'll have to micro equally well to keep up. Soon some amazing zerg player will dominate some marine/medivac ball really hard with great sling/bling micro on some big stream, and then it will be back to the drawing board for Ts.
That wont work.
How about splitting your oncoming banelings to attack the separate little groups he's splitting off?
Banelings are only good because of the splash damage. if the terran splits his marines perfectly, then if you have pure banelings, splitting them perfectly too will still put you in a terrible spot. Because then your banelings are not doing splash damage. In fact, splitting your banelings does nothing beyond what a-moving would, since banelings dont overkill.
So you cant go with pure banelings against marines being split, and come out ahead. Your options are to prevent the marines from splitting up (ling surround, infestors), or take advantage of the fact that they are so spread out (lings). Splitting banelings against marines just doesnt work.
But seriously though, just stop using pure blings against marines, or marine marauders. you already have the ling speed, they use the same upgrades, and so on, its just a matter of not morphing all of your lings into banelings. And using the saved up money to make more stuff.
Yeah, I've always thought that speed lings were one of the most underused (or maybe just mis-used) units in the game. They're awful in a choke or up a ramp or something, but in terms of dps per cost, they're insane. The key is to get sufficient surface area for the speed lings to attack, and you can do that in the open field. If the terran does a good job of staying in a ball and kiting, however, you need banelings. And oh, what a good job banelings do against densely-packed marines! Toss has force fields to eliminate surface area and create choke points, but vs. terran, you can pull off some sweet surrounds.
[QUOTE]On January 18 2011 02:31 solidbebe wrote: [QUOTE]Holy sh*t that's hilarious but hang on ''your oppnent sees the rape coming, so HE runs away'' see the irregularity here but if this is within the context of the american prison system I fully understand. [/QUOTE]
You homophobes sure ruin alot of good jokes don't you?[/Q]
I didn't intend it that way but fair enough Something I have noticed it that baneling damage ups outstrip marine armour ups in other words 0/1 rines are worse to 1/0 banelings than if they were 0/0 all round marine armour goes up by 1 where baneling damage goes up by 2(+2 light).
On January 18 2011 02:29 FeyFey wrote: yeah you need more lings so he won't shoot and run through the lings. I like my blue flame hellions behind my marines so if the lings try a surround they get melted running straight into the flames. Its a nice trap. But i also like the pre marine and tank splitting, as it builds up a huge defend position and banelings and lings kind of become and never get enough marines for the mutas to do damage.
as it goes for utilizing banelings. Drops and burrow helps if you can get him easily moving. Possibly at a ramp at a backwater expo that has spines so he will need more then a few marines. Positions he won't scan hehe. Other then that I am thankful for every zerg using not more then 3 control groups. I mean 4 banelings groups (even magic boxed or a roach inside and ahead to take tank shots for the lazy people) no chance in splitting marines against this. And the work is still far higher for the terran.
Farking this. So many zergs complain about how marines can abuse their counter, when by "counter", they mean they should be able to just a+ move their counter at their opponent and win instantly. Really good marine splitting micro will require really good baneling/zergling micro to defeat. How about splitting your oncoming banelings to attack the separate little groups he's splitting off? People accused terrans of being a movers. Good Ts are getting into some really effective and hard micro, and now zergs whine because they'll have to micro equally well to keep up. Soon some amazing zerg player will dominate some marine/medivac ball really hard with great sling/bling micro on some big stream, and then it will be back to the drawing board for Ts.
How about splitting your oncoming banelings to attack the separate little groups he's splitting off?
Banelings are only good because of the splash damage. if the terran splits his marines perfectly, then if you have pure banelings, splitting them perfectly too will still put you in a terrible spot. Because then your banelings are not doing splash damage. In fact, splitting your banelings does nothing beyond what a-moving would, since banelings dont overkill.
So you cant go with pure banelings against marines being split, and come out ahead. Your options are to prevent the marines from splitting up (ling surround, infestors), or take advantage of the fact that they are so spread out (lings). Splitting banelings against marines just doesnt work.
But seriously though, just stop using pure blings against marines, or marine marauders. you already have the ling speed, they use the same upgrades, and so on, its just a matter of not morphing all of your lings into banelings. And using the saved up money to make more stuff.
If you saw my previous posts, you'd see I've been heavily advocating more speedling use against marines for just that reason. And splitting blings vs splitting marines at least makes blings somewhat cost efficient again instead of just piling them forward into the occasional 3 marines he leaves in your path.
In all seriousness, the idea that everyone has that by making just one unit or one type of unit, you should be able to beat someone making one unit or one type of unit that is weak against the unit you are making is ridiculous. If you can win games by making only one unit, the game isn't designed well. Mass marines don't lose straight up to banelings if they are micro'd? Fine, mix in something to help the banelings get their job done.
To those making suggestions regarding unit compositions, you are of course right that straight banes is rarely (if ever) optimal. But this is not the point of my post. I am not suggesting that pure banelings should ever be used. What I am suggesting is a micro technique for improving the targeting of banelings. I presented it in the context of banelings vs. marines since this is its purest - and most easily understood - application. However, in practice it should be used in conjunction with other units and other micro techniques.
For example, when using sling/bling/muta vs. MMM, I usually have each of my 3 unit types on separate hot keys. At the beginning of battle, I tell the speedlings to run past the bio ball, and my banelings to run through it, while my mutas are kept on the periphery (picking off any stray marines or medivacs). I try to get the speedlings behind the marines so as to cup them for the banelings. As iEchoic pointed out, it's often better to actually have more speedlings than banelings, so long as the speedlings allow the banelings to make good hits. If the terran begins to split, I now issue an a-move command to all 3 groups: in the case of speedlings and mutas, this allows them to take advantage of the units being separated (and thus having higher surface area). In the case of banelings, this move/a-move technique causes them to also automatically target multiple groups rather than rolling in a single stream. Additional targeting and micro can then be used as the battle progresses.
While this concept may seem trivial, I raised it because I've noticed that even at a pro level, players often persist with move commanding their banelings during combat, even after the terran has made an effective split.
Tactics > Micro. Even with Banelings, which just plain explode, you still want a surround as Zerg. See the rape video for a very nice demonstration of how a guy that tries to stutter-step his stimmed MM ball back gets raped because the Zerg got a surround.
EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/6G2ir.jpg)
