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Hello fellow TLs, it is true that we've seen too many pvz help threads, but i just cannot locate a good replay of protoss going immortals, the unit that I think would have probably helped me in this match, to fend off roach hydra.
In my past experiences I have not really liked using colossus. they take up 6 supply and are extremely vulnerable to corruptors, which are not autofired at by stalkers and I'm not confident in my micro in a tense situtation to clear out corruptors with stalker fire.
Thus, I'm interested in the Immortal!
In this replay I reactionary forge expand into 5 gate stargate, adding more gateways and eventually getting templar tech. I deny zergs 3rd twice and manage to take a third myself.
When i attack i'm 20 food up but get destroyed by a flock of burrowed roaches that i did not forsee.
What could i have done differently other than get observer to scout ahead of army XD?
This is a game against a ~2200 diamond zerg.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125686-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
ALSO MORE IMPORTANTLY
does someone link me a reply of a toss player going immortals instead of colossus to deal with roach hydra?
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ok, so your problem there was you were behind in upgrades, spent to much money on tech that wasn't used that much. But i think the most important of all was not waiting for your robo to pump out 1 obs. Roach burrow is a great way to exploit you for having 0 detection. This being that the roaches get a complete surround on your army shoot then burrow. i think you could of had more units if you maybe slowed down a bit getting your tech. I hope this helps.
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@ yamulo,. thanks I was behind on upgrades but he only had 2/0 i had 1/1, I'm not sure how much of a difference 2/2 would have made.
upon further inspection I would say that the extra food i had was probably in workers and not army since i was 3 base saturated vs his 2.
I'm not sure what you mean by spending too much on tech, I did invest in an early starport to stop roaches if they were going to try to break my natural, it also gave me scouting with phoenixes to know when he takes his third ( which didn't happen until very late and never was running )
as for hts, i think that i did make to many of them and could have invested that gas into robo units.
I believe this is a good example of not forcing a win. I should not have engaged zerg after harassing his expansion plans imo and should have just sat on 3 base until i maxed. while making a death ball.
>> still iso immortal relay vs roach hydra
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okay so i have plenty to point out.
your opening while somewhat unconvential and just asking to be overrun with zerglings held up just fine as he was very passive
your biggest problem this game was a lack of scouting
you spent
700/500 on a stargate a void and 2 phoenixs for a grand total of 2 kills and no scouting information, despite having phoenixs that could easily be constantly buzzing his base to checfk for tech and army movements
you also went way too zealot heavy, zealots are useless against roach hydra as roaches tank the damage so well from zealots and the combination just tears zealots apart, you lost 20 zealots and a stalker or two to kill off 17 roaches and a few hydras, not overly cost effective, although you did stop the expansion, which was useful
your natural was extremely oversaturated for most of the game, which is just a waste of supply generally, as well as ineffective, when you had a nexus sitting there for 50 seconds without being used
you saw mass roach, and never got an obs which is just a deathblow mistake, after stopping his expansion, you should've got the robo got the obs, and just sat back and watched, he needs to expand, you were up a base on him and could easily have had him solidly outmacroed as he was relatively all in at that point as he seemed to have jno interest in re expanding, unfortunately you just weren't patient enough at that point
instead you engaged where he had the advantage
1 obs and you had him beat is the moral of the story, an obs far earlier in the game would've allowed much better decision making all in all, especially when the temps ended up being relatively ineffective for their cost, i can understand your hate of the colossi, but really against roach hydra, they're a very useful unit, although pure macro would've won that game had you had a single obs
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@coramoor, I agree with you a lot.
I tend to overprobe, if there is such thing, not really checking for oversaturation.
Also yes the stargate in the end was a huge waste of money + the 2 Phoenixs and void ray that virtually did nothing all game.
I guess I was assuming that he wasn't going as heavy roach as he had when I attacked. From what I saw, it was a mainly hydra army with roaches scattered in, though I was wrong to assume that his composition was mostly only hydras since it was not at all.
It was because of my prior games vs mostly hydra players that I thought zealots storm a fatal combination. Should have gone less zealot, and definitely just been more patient.
Looking back there was no way he was going to attack me without getting T3 units, which are very expensive on 2 base. With some harassment on his army and stopping a 3rd I could have been 5 base on him with time.
However, I was not trying to tend the game with my attack that resulted in the loss of most of my army, I was still far away from his 2nd or main. Was just trying to poke up and get some ovie/hydra kills with the hatch but was unpleasantly surprised.
As for the fast expand, I wasn't planning on actually doing that build but kinda did that on whim from the gas steal. So it was less solid, However, I dont think he had a good idea that i was going to do that until the first cannon was up. There was a window for a straight ling attack though which he didn't really prepare for, that was when he charged with about 8 lings to my ramp and i blocked with a zealot and probe.
Is it even possible to react to a gas steal by fast expanding and still be completely safe vs zerg?
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On January 09 2011 06:18 fighter2_40 wrote:
@ yamulo,. thanks I was behind on upgrades but he only had 2/0 i had 1/1, I'm not sure how much of a difference 2/2 would have made.
upon further inspection I would say that the extra food i had was probably in workers and not army since i was 3 base saturated vs his 2.
I'm not sure what you mean by spending too much on tech, I did invest in an early starport to stop roaches if they were going to try to break my natural, it also gave me scouting with phoenixes to know when he takes his third ( which didn't happen until very late and never was running )
as for hts, i think that i did make to many of them and could have invested that gas into robo units.
I believe this is a good example of not forcing a win. I should not have engaged zerg after harassing his expansion plans imo and should have just sat on 3 base until i maxed. while making a death ball.
>> still iso immortal relay vs roach hydra
2/2 is a nice little difference because stalkers don't benefit as *well* as other ranged units for attack upgrades.
Roach = 16 damage 1 armor --> 20 damage 1 armor.
Stalker = 14 damage 1 armor --> 15 damage 2 armor.
18 damage for the roach, and only 14 damage for the stalker. Including the fact that the stalker's hp is only half, that's even worse.
You also state that you invested in an early stargate to stop roaches, but you can easily do that with forcefields and stalkers. Why invest 550/300(?) when you can spend less to scout?
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On January 09 2011 12:31 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 06:18 fighter2_40 wrote:
@ yamulo,. thanks I was behind on upgrades but he only had 2/0 i had 1/1, I'm not sure how much of a difference 2/2 would have made.
upon further inspection I would say that the extra food i had was probably in workers and not army since i was 3 base saturated vs his 2.
I'm not sure what you mean by spending too much on tech, I did invest in an early starport to stop roaches if they were going to try to break my natural, it also gave me scouting with phoenixes to know when he takes his third ( which didn't happen until very late and never was running )
as for hts, i think that i did make to many of them and could have invested that gas into robo units.
I believe this is a good example of not forcing a win. I should not have engaged zerg after harassing his expansion plans imo and should have just sat on 3 base until i maxed. while making a death ball.
>> still iso immortal relay vs roach hydra 2/2 is a nice little difference because stalkers don't benefit as *well* as other ranged units for attack upgrades. Roach = 16 damage 1 armor --> 20 damage 1 armor. Stalker = 14 damage 1 armor --> 15 damage 2 armor. 18 damage for the roach, and only 14 damage for the stalker. Including the fact that the stalker's hp is only half, that's even worse. You also state that you invested in an early stargate to stop roaches, but you can easily do that with forcefields and stalkers. Why invest 550/300(?) when you can spend less to scout?
stalkers default have 1 armor, so it would actually be plus 2 and plus 3, although with stalkers being 80 shield 80 health, it can be a somewhat ineffective upgrade early in the game, especially against roaches, although still certainly worth it as it does give them that maybe extra shot
Is it even possible to react to a gas steal by fast expanding and still be completely safe vs zerg?
i'd argue no, unless you open forge of course, your way is probably the best, but tbh it would be a lot safer to do a smaller sentry expand or try the 1 gas 4gate and not overcommit to it
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EPT
