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Hey, so, I've basically been getting a quick raven every game versus Protoss, as it's safe and allows for some nice timing attacks. I love it when my opponent blindly goes DT and gets stopped short at my ramp.
But, then I wanted to try some other builds. 2rax FE etc. and found if my opponent happened to go DTs I would just lose. Not outright, but enough damage would be done where he could just macro up off his advantage and win with ease. Is doing anything other than quick raven just plain risky? Will there be these stupid build-order losses? I don't wanna do things that can blindly get owned by luck, doesn't feel like a competitive RTS to me. I'm always baffled when pros do something like 1rax FE in a competitive match, as, depending on the map, there must be so many potential outright build-order losses. It's kind of like when I watched Idra's stream and saw him go 14hatch in ZvZ and just lose minutes in to an early pool rush. Am I missing something here, or can sheer luck outright win you games?
Another thing is warpgates and big maps. Now, say you're a P versus a T on cross-map Shakuras. You can fairly safely go 1gate FE, right? Safest thing in the world. But the T has no such luxury, since a P can just put a proxy pylon and do some gateway all-in and avoid any large distance. Are big maps inherently worse for terran, or what?
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get an ebay and wait to build turrets until you know hes going DT (save a scan or something)
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owned by luck
Had to lol.
Solve your DT-Problem by either
A) Scout
B) Save scans (if needed)
Solve your WarpIn-Problem by
A) Scout
B) Build units that own Gateway-Units (Marauder)
So my main message here: Scout -.-
Adapt to your opponents strategy and "counter" it.
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@Sadist
Yeah, I suppose, but generally they split their DTs up and do a good job of not losing them even to a scan >_<
@Latrik
Yes, I'll just build units that own, I can't believe I didn't think of that.
OK, how about a more concrete example. Let's say a Terran 1rax expos. Protoss 4gates. Does Terran stand a chance? He had to commit to his build before he could scout a 4gate, and usually protoss will do his best to hide his intentions. I just feel lost whenever I try something I feel is risky, like go for early economy.
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A few bunkers will hold a 4 gate at your natural
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Ever since Protoss started forcefielding behind bunkers to hinder SCVs repairing, I've lost a lot of my faith in bunkers.
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On January 09 2011 02:56 Starshaped wrote:
@Sadist
Yeah, I suppose, but generally they split their DTs up and do a good job of not losing them even to a scan >_<
@Latrik
Yes, I'll just build units that own, I can't believe I didn't think of that.
OK, how about a more concrete example. Let's say a Terran 1rax expos. Protoss 4gates. Does Terran stand a chance? He had to commit to his build before he could scout a 4gate, and usually protoss will do his best to hide his intentions. I just feel lost whenever I try something I feel is risky, like go for early economy.
Scout with a SCV...
He won't build the other gateways until your SCV is dead ( => delay 4 gate )
Send next scout SCV and your Reaper...
At this time you'll be able to see either the 4 gates with your Reaper or your SCV.
Use your saved minerals to build additional barracks to respond in time...
I don't see a problem here.
You just don't have to be hardcore about your build.
ADJUST!
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I 1 rax expand without any addons, and because the expand is so fast, I incorporate as much safety as possible in my build to ensure the game will last long enough for my advantage to be displayed.
It's a modified anti colossus build order, and I do about the same timing push as in the thread. It's 1 rax, cc, bunker, double gas, rax, bunker, ebay, rax, bunker. I haven't played in a week or two, so I don't really remember if I have to cut any scvs, but you really want 2 bunkers and at least 2 rax earlier than the build in the thread to produce marines to fill up the bunkers to hold off anything, you also want a turret between your first two bunkers for detecting and holding off 3gate voidray pushes and you want to transfer ~6-7 scvs to your nat (it hurts your economy, but allows for you to pull more scvs to repair bunkers). I'm 2600 diamond and the only trouble I had in TvP was when I couldn't hold my expand off the build order in the thread, so I adapted it to the newer earlier pushes.
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My point was that you lose no matter what. If you go for a super early expansion, then get 4gated, it doesn't matter if you scout it or not, you won't have enough to stop it, right? I mean I've lost to 4gate when I was teching off one base, so I can't imagine spending 400 minerals on a CC and then surviving an all-in.
Edit: @Blya
Sounds good. I suppose one needs to play things very safe, but it's often very tempting to cut corners, at least for me.
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Im not a very good SC player so i might be totaly wrong but as i see it luck is a part of this game. Starcraft is a game of incomplete information unlike chess for example, thats why people compare it with poker. When you play Starcraft you probably never will be able to be perfectly shure what your opponent is doing and you will be forced to guess sometimes. This is why mindgames are a important factor in high level play, where the execution of strategys is very good (maybe even close to perfect).
Because of this rock paper scissors like element its important not to be a totaly predictable player, exactly like in poker where you cant win longterm if you dont mix up your game. But again like in poker you wont be able to win every match (every hand), even if your very very good you will still lose some games even if you executed your strategy perfectly (like calling a all in with the second nuts, when your opponent has the nuts, if you know what i mean).
The experience that i made with this game is that you have to take risks sometimes, because if you play perfectly safe everytime you will lose more and be a weaker player overall in the longterm. Especially when your opponents start to know your playstyle (if your on top of the ladder for example or you get much air time in tournaments).
Thats why you rarely see a tiptop pro who does the same build every game or only cheeses or only goes for macro games, because once their strat is figured out they dont win as much anymore.
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thats a good point, it all depends how flexible your build is to adapt to certain things.
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On January 09 2011 03:25 Starshaped wrote:
My point was that you lose no matter what. If you go for a super early expansion, then get 4gated, it doesn't matter if you scout it or not, you won't have enough to stop it, right? I mean I've lost to 4gate when I was teching off one base, so I can't imagine spending 400 minerals on a CC and then surviving an all-in.
Edit: @Blya
Sounds good. I suppose one needs to play things very safe, but it's often very tempting to cut corners, at least for me.
Omg, you don't get me, do you?
You see 4 Gate...
So you DO NOT build your CC...
You build Barracks INSTEAD and you're safe.
If you still build a CC, you deserve to lose :>
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Ebay and wait on turrets until you see DT rush is the answer you're looking for. You'll be using the Ebay for your MM upgrades anyways so it's not like you lose anything.
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@Altered
Yeah, I suppose. I'm just so used to WC3 where it's all about micro and there's no such thing as build-order losses etc.
@Latrik
1rax FE has a CC put down somewhere before 20 food, lol. You will have to build it before you can determine anything, which was my entire point. It's a risky thing to do and I'm baffled when pros do it. I'm still uncomfortable doing risky things, but I suppose luck is a big part of SC2 and I just have to accept it.
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turrets and scan solve.. I don't see the big deal. If you don't have the counter to invis units, of course you're going to lose/be behind! that's like saying you don't know how to counter mutas while completely avoiding marines.
And don't try to play off 1 gate FE as some luxury. If you think it's that, then you've never hellion dropped, used cloaked banshees, or any harassment of the sort that throws Protoss of their game. Toss can't even afford to harass until the mid-late game, and the only cost effective forms of harass vs T are DTs or HTs (assuming that the Terran doesn't even have visiblity of his own base)
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On January 09 2011 04:03 Starshaped wrote:
@Altered
Yeah, I suppose. I'm just so used to WC3 where it's all about micro and there's no such thing as build-order losses etc.
@Latrik
1rax FE has a CC put down somewhere before 20 food, lol. You will have to build it before you can determine anything, which was my entire point. It's a risky thing to do and I'm baffled when pros do it. I'm still uncomfortable doing risky things, but I suppose luck is a big part of SC2 and I just have to accept it.
Before 20 food? That's extremely atypical. Earliest I ever see is 24-26 CC.
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On January 09 2011 03:53 Figgy20000 wrote:
Ebay and wait on turrets until you see DT rush is the answer you're looking for. You'll be using the Ebay for your MM upgrades anyways so it's not like you lose anything.
This. If you scout a twilight council I would suggest pre-emptively putting down 1-2 turrets since the DT shrine could be hidden somewhere.
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Scans is not great advice. Do not rely on scans to detect dts. Two good scans might buy you time to build eng bay and then turret, but its cheaper (considering potential of those scans as mules) to just get turret when dts are possible(which also helps vs the powerful stargate build).
So in short: turret at front or raven opening.
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1 rax expand with no gas fails to 4 gate, since you don't get marauders fast enough. However, if you go with a standard 12 rax 13 gas, build one marine, get tech lab, and then make marauders with concussive shell, you can do a tiny poke at his base with 2 marauders and 1 marine. You drop your CC after your first marauder. The poke is enough to tell whether he is going 4gate (lots of stalkers and zealots) or tech (mostly sentries so he can block his ramp), and then you can play accordingly.
I've been doing 1rax marauder expands versus P on the ladder for the last few weeks (2400 diamond level) and it's been working out very well.
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France12911 Posts
I use 2rax FE, 1marine 1 marauder+concussive then reaper (and bunker), scout with the reaper, if you see 4gate add 1 bunker, if you see like 3gate no robotic (and your reaper get killed before seeing the hidden tech) expect dt or voidray so you can buy ebay relatively fast.
It works for me atm
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On January 09 2011 04:06 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 04:03 Starshaped wrote:
@Altered
Yeah, I suppose. I'm just so used to WC3 where it's all about micro and there's no such thing as build-order losses etc.
@Latrik
1rax FE has a CC put down somewhere before 20 food, lol. You will have to build it before you can determine anything, which was my entire point. It's a risky thing to do and I'm baffled when pros do it. I'm still uncomfortable doing risky things, but I suppose luck is a big part of SC2 and I just have to accept it. Before 20 food? That's extremely atypical. Earliest I ever see is 24-26 CC.
Yup. The standard is to pressure with 2 marine 1 marauder and making cc as you move out which would come at around 25-26 supply. The fastest possible cc you can make does come at 19 supply if you skip the 2nd depot but it's pretty uncommon.
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On January 09 2011 02:44 Sadist wrote:
get an ebay and wait to build turrets until you know hes going DT (save a scan or something)
You don't get the point at all.
If you don't go for a build that opens your tech tree relatively fast, a DT opening protoss will ALWAYS be ahead, because once DTs are out he's 100% safe until a raven is out, which takes forever if you didn't tech (if you went 1/2rax fe, 2/3 rax pressure or w/e), so he'll be able to expand completely uncontested and tech to whatever the fuck he wants (most of the time HTs which are ridiculously fast to get once DTs are out compared to the time those DTs buy for protoss)
All the people hey get an ebay some turrets and tadaaa ! you're set don't understand anything about what DTs are supposed to do
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On January 09 2011 05:19 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 02:44 Sadist wrote:
get an ebay and wait to build turrets until you know hes going DT (save a scan or something) You don't get the point at all. If you don't go for a build that opens your tech tree relatively fast, a DT opening protoss will ALWAYS be ahead, because once DTs are out he's 100% safe until a raven is out, which takes forever if you didn't tech (if you went 1/2rax fe, 2/3 rax pressure or w/e), so he'll be able to expand completely uncontested and tech to whatever the fuck he wants (most of the time HTs which are ridiculously fast to get once DTs are out compared to the time those DTs buy for protoss) All the people hey get an ebay some turrets and tadaaa ! you're set don't understand anything about what DTs are supposed to do
Let me get this straight. If P opens DT vs a FE build from terran, he can take 2 expansions, have storm ready AND have a big enough army to take on T's MM ball before T builds a factory, starport, then a raven? That's pretty impressive.
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I would say that the answer is proper scouting, you don't even need to see the shrine. In fact if you look at his unit composition and his # of gas taken you can predict that he has some other form of tech, so it might be wise to save 1 scan if you suspect dts. Do note that he could be going some other form of tech as well.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 09 2011 02:42 Starshaped wrote:
Hey, so, I've basically been getting a quick raven every game versus Protoss, as it's safe and allows for some nice timing attacks. I love it when my opponent blindly goes DT and gets stopped short at my ramp.
But, then I wanted to try some other builds. 2rax FE etc. and found if my opponent happened to go DTs I would just lose. Not outright, but enough damage would be done where he could just macro up off his advantage and win with ease. Is doing anything other than quick raven just plain risky? Will there be these stupid build-order losses? I don't wanna do things that can blindly get owned by luck, doesn't feel like a competitive RTS to me. I'm always baffled when pros do something like 1rax FE in a competitive match, as, depending on the map, there must be so many potential outright build-order losses. It's kind of like when I watched Idra's stream and saw him go 14hatch in ZvZ and just lose minutes in to an early pool rush. Am I missing something here, or can sheer luck outright win you games?
Another thing is warpgates and big maps. Now, say you're a P versus a T on cross-map Shakuras. You can fairly safely go 1gate FE, right? Safest thing in the world. But the T has no such luxury, since a P can just put a proxy pylon and do some gateway all-in and avoid any large distance. Are big maps inherently worse for terran, or what?
You can save the energy on your second OC for scanning or incorporate an early ebay for upgrades and turrets if you face DTs so much.
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Getting a slightly early e-bay isn't THAT big of a deal. +1 infantry is not unusual for a good timing push.
The biggest challenge is making sure you adequately scout a DT teching Protoss. Even that can be largely mitigated if you wall off all points of entry, a feat that isn't very difficult for Terran.
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On January 09 2011 06:20 bobucles wrote:
Getting a slightly early e-bay isn't THAT big of a deal. +1 infantry is not unusual for a good timing push.
The biggest challenge is making sure you adequately scout a DT teching Protoss. Even that can be largely mitigated if you wall off all points of entry, a feat that isn't very difficult for Terran.
he's talking about a FE not a 1 base timing push...
if you make an ebay when doing a FE you just loose cause thats 125+whatever many turrets you build that could have bee units,
YES if you go 1 rax FE you loose to DT's there's nothing you can do about it !
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if you make an ebay when doing a FE you just loose cause thats 125+whatever many turrets you build that could have bee units, You mean ONE turret for the expansion, right? Their detection range is enough to cover the natural and ramp for most maps. Cloaked units can't walk through walls. That still costs less than trading a mule for a scan.
If he's getting DT's faster than you get marines, there are probably other issues going on.
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On January 09 2011 04:57 Poopi wrote:
I use 2rax FE, 1marine 1 marauder+concussive then reaper (and bunker), scout with the reaper, if you see 4gate add 1 bunker, if you see like 3gate no robotic (and your reaper get killed before seeing the hidden tech) expect dt or voidray so you can buy ebay relatively fast.
It works for me atm
That's how its usually works, however there a new trend to go for robo + dts. So i scouted a robo and gateways and feel rather safe... a bit later i see dts inside my base (warp prism), so you have to build bay even if you see robo nowadays
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EPT
