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I've been doing a 3 port banshee build for a week or so and I don't think I've lost with it once. Even if it's scouted, it doesn't seem to matter. But I'm thinking that might be because of the level of players I've been facing, which seems to range from gold to diamond. So I'm a bit worried that the build isn't as strong as it feels like right now.
The basics of it is a 2 barracks/bunker wall-off that seems to hold off baneling busts pretty well, then take both geysers. Eventually build up to 3 starports and start taking map control and attacking with the first banshee. There's no reason to get cloak...
The build holds off mutas pretty well, because of all the marines that are continously being made... and banelings are pretty much nullified - so at least the platinum level meta game is countered.
But the build is probably very weak to infestors, even though I've never seen anyone make them, and it's difficult to get a reasonably timed expansion off of it.
Dunno.. thoughts? Ways to tighten it up?
Replays:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125604-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125606-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125605-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis (lol @ 5 min singleplayer at the end)
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Don't build a 3rd starport. Expand earlier.
User was warned for this post
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If the zerg send in an OL between 6-7 minutes like he should he'll see the starport, this should trigger an extra two queens and creep between bases. He'll then either add some spores (which yes are horrible but help fill in some holes) and then tech to a hydra based ground army or more likely mutas.
The first couple of banshees arrive and are decimated by the queens (if not decimated driven off easily) which triggers a round of drones.
The zerg is then very much ahead and can get out 10 mutalisks which will dance around the terran base keeping the marines at home while they expand again. The marines will be scouted by the mutas and if there isn't a bane nest down already (which there probably will be) then one will be thrown down for when/if the mutas are killed and the terran can move out.
Personally i love banshee openings if i get the OL scout off and see the star port because i feel really ahead when they come and are driven off straight away. However with out scouting i'm in agreement that this build will do some serious damage.
Marines should not be able to hold off mutas as mutas attack where marines aren't and then turrets are forced putting the econ behind a bit more.
Infestors don't work because they are sniped so damn easy by banshees.
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On January 09 2011 00:16 Sadistx wrote:
Don't build a 3rd starport. Expand earlier.
This is bullshit.
Just build a 4th starport and your strat will be perfect !
If you don't have the gas, try open double gas after depot, it's much more fun than the lame 12 rax 
If you don't win with your first attack, you may want to build a 5th and 6th starport. THIS will win you games.
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On January 09 2011 00:23 Firesemi wrote:
If the zerg send in an OL between 6-7 minutes like he should he'll see the starport, this should trigger an extra two queens and creep between bases. He'll then either add some spores (which yes are horrible but help fill in some holes) and then tech to a hydra based ground army or more likely mutas.
The first couple of banshees arrive and are decimated by the queens (if not decimated driven off easily) which triggers a round of drones.
The zerg is then very much ahead and can get out 10 mutalisks which will dance around the terran base keeping the marines at home while they expand again. The marines will be scouted by the mutas and if there isn't a bane nest down already (which there probably will be) then one will be thrown down for when/if the mutas are killed and the terran can move out.
Personally i love banshee openings if i get the OL scout off and see the star port because i feel really ahead when they come and are driven off straight away. However with out scouting i'm in agreement that this build will do some serious damage.
Marines should not be able to hold off mutas as mutas attack where marines aren't and then turrets are forced putting the econ behind a bit more.
Infestors don't work because they are sniped so damn easy by banshees.
The scenario you describe hasn't happened to me yet.. I'm pretty sure I was scouted around that timing in the first replay. It's like I really don't care if they scout me or not. I could even build a starport at the wall in, if it wasn't for banelings.
If anything, I'm glad if the zerg is spending drones on spore crawlers. And 1 banshee with another two comming to reinforce pretty quickly easily deals with two queens. One reason I'm not sure that cutting a starport would be good here, is that you basically win by overpowering them with banshees. I'm not sure just two ports make banshees quick enough for this to happen before they're able to tech too high.
Hydras are good at defending, but it allows me to start getting tanks and expand and get ravens, because they won't be at my base any time soon.
If they're going heavy muta, I just take all my marines and attack along with the banshees. They'll have to defend with the mutas if they want to surive, and the marines take them out easily enough (again, 1st replay) If they're just making a few mutas, since I typically haven't expanded at that point, the marines are able to cover my base just fine.
I'm positive the build has some huge weaknesses, but more queens, spore crawlers and mutas sure ain't it. And hydras just seems to be a small setback that I can techswitch to counter.
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You can't support more than 2 Starports off 1 base if you constantly build out of them. Also, your build is really all-in, all Zerg has to do is make sufficient queens and tech to mutalisks.
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Banshees are gimmicky so making them the backbone of your army makes a weak army.
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Wow. Ya, they'll get 2-3 queens more, spread creep, throw down a few spore crawlers to give detection, and go to mutas as normal.
They scout 3 port, I'm sure you'll face 5-7 queens at a given time. With their AA range, and extra mana around, this won't work without cloak + vikings to snipe a overseer, at best.
3 port is a no go. Make it 2, if you must, and expo and transition into something else. You have no anti muta, which will spell your ultimate demise.
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You cannot support 3 Starports off 2 bases, you simply won't have the gas for it or even the minerals if you are building marines.
The most starports you should ever have is 2 off one base. Work on your macro and learn to be constantly building units and you'll see you won't have an issue without that 3rd one.
Otherwise, Banshees are gimmicky against Zerg. If they scout it they will have enough queens to hold you off, and mutas are good against any terran set-up and they hard counter uncloaked banshees hard.
I'm sure your build works in lower leagues but when you get to mid-high diamond you'll only win with that build when they are vastly unprepared for it (which will be rare). That strat isn't a strat you want to make the backbone of your learning experience, it's something you use 1 in 100 games when you feel like cheesing someone and pray they don't see it.
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yeah, it's the transfuse that saves zerg here, it seems.. I guess the people I was facing before just weren't using it.
blah, I'll try it some more, flying banshees around is fun ^^
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On January 09 2011 00:31 NormandyBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 00:16 Sadistx wrote:
Don't build a 3rd starport. Expand earlier.
This is bullshit. Just build a 4th starport and your strat will be perfect ! If you don't have the gas, try open double gas after depot, it's much more fun than the lame 12 rax If you don't win with your first attack, you may want to build a 5th and 6th starport. THIS will win you games.
Some part of this is becoming my new signature.
The problem with any sort of banshee build is that a competent zerg WILL steal your gas. This will prevent you from getting cloak which is really the only way mass banshee builds have any future beyond the initial push barring some glaring mistakes made by your opponent.
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On January 09 2011 04:53 hizBALLIN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 00:31 NormandyBoy wrote:On January 09 2011 00:16 Sadistx wrote:
Don't build a 3rd starport. Expand earlier.
This is bullshit. Just build a 4th starport and your strat will be perfect ! If you don't have the gas, try open double gas after depot, it's much more fun than the lame 12 rax If you don't win with your first attack, you may want to build a 5th and 6th starport. THIS will win you games. Some part of this is becoming my new signature. The problem with any sort of banshee build is that a competent zerg WILL steal your gas. This will prevent you from getting cloak which is really the only way mass banshee builds have any future beyond the initial push barring some glaring mistakes made by your opponent.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? No, not even close dude. Who steals gas anymore it isn't that common especially with all the 2 rax play going out you only gas steal if your drone can't make it out alive for the most part.
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If you are playing it off 1 base you wont' have the gas sustain 3 port banshee
3 port banshee requires 300gas/min, 1 bases mine about 225 gas/min. There's no point to it. **thanks asm for pointing it out --- getting too tired
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On January 09 2011 07:27 Griffith` wrote:
If you are playing it off 1 base you wont' have the gas sustain 3 port banshee
3 port banshee requires 300gas/min, 2 bases mine about 225 gas/min. There's no point to it.
You mean, 1 base mines about 240/min. My guess is he's talking about quick double gas to build up gas.
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On January 09 2011 00:13 Quotidian wrote:
The basics of it is a 2 barracks/bunker wall-off that seems to hold off baneling busts pretty well, then take both geysers. Eventually build up to 3 starports and start taking map control and attacking with the first banshee. There's no reason to get cloak...
Just a silver Terran here...but I'd definitely recommend getting cloak if your first push bounces. Forcing overseers is a big gas drain on Zerg, which is a perfect way to lower the muta count. Chances are if you get cloak (200/200) they'll get at least two overseers (100/200), so up front its an even trade. However, you get to keep your cloak tech for the entire game, while the Zerg needs to remake their overseers if they lose them. It's pretty easy to snipe overseers with stimmed marines too...and I don't think I've ever seen a Zerg get air armor upgrades.
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On January 09 2011 07:21 Figgy20000 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 04:53 hizBALLIN wrote:On January 09 2011 00:31 NormandyBoy wrote:On January 09 2011 00:16 Sadistx wrote:
Don't build a 3rd starport. Expand earlier.
This is bullshit. Just build a 4th starport and your strat will be perfect ! If you don't have the gas, try open double gas after depot, it's much more fun than the lame 12 rax If you don't win with your first attack, you may want to build a 5th and 6th starport. THIS will win you games. Some part of this is becoming my new signature. The problem with any sort of banshee build is that a competent zerg WILL steal your gas. This will prevent you from getting cloak which is really the only way mass banshee builds have any future beyond the initial push barring some glaring mistakes made by your opponent. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? No, not even close dude. Who steals gas anymore it isn't that common especially with all the 2 rax play going out you only gas steal if your drone can't make it out alive for the most part.
Machine, Catz, Ret, and a lot of high-end players (including my favourite, Destiny) steal gas. Most coaches advocate it as well for the simple reason that spending a drone limits his options down the line considerably for just 75 minerals. If the guy doesn't kill the extractor fairly quickly you know he's either doing some low/no-gas build or FEing, which gives you info.
Can you name me any progamers who've gone on the record to say that stealing gas shouldn't be done? Because otherwise, for all I know, you're some Pewter League scrub advocating a really poor tactical decision.
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3port banshee probably wont work just because of the gas cost.
Off one base with 2 refineries you can only get about 200 gas which can make 2 banshees.
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Off 1 base u cld only barely support 2 sports..
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the 3rd port helps when you have sloppy macro though.. but yeah, it's been stated several times already that you can only support 2 ports with good macro.
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You know, this reminds me of Statikg doing my 2 Rax Banshee Feint:
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/3246/Lostcause_vs_Waking
You snipe any scouting ovies, so they don't know if it is a 1 base marine/tank or FE. They'll figure it out about a minute before cloak hits so he's SoL if he doesn't have a Lair or a ton of crawlers already. Once you fast tech to banshees, your minerals will be freed up from building infrastructure so you can throw down an expo and extra barracks and transition into air + ground.
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Don't attack with your first banshee. It may trigger your opponent to get a evo chamber or more queens. Moreover, he will feel safer as he knows that a big bio or marine/tank push isnt coming. When you get 3, then go attack and catch a queen that is by itself. Wait any longer and your banshees will be muta food. Continue to rally banshees at his base and snipe his spire/evo/hydra den.
And no, you cannot support 3 starports.
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On January 09 2011 20:56 Quotidian wrote:
the 3rd port helps when you have sloppy macro though.. but yeah, it's been stated several times already that you can only support 2 ports with good macro.
How bad must you macro to have 100 extra gas?
To macro a 2port banshee build you literally press 4S5A6EE Tada!
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there was this one quarter final game in the GSL i think that used a skymech TvZ build. but it started off with a double barracks wall-off expand on shakuras followed up by 3 ports, pumping first banshees then vikings against mutas.
the point is if you want the build to tighten up, put an expansion somewhere in it. so that when he fends off your '3-port' banshee attack, you'll have something to fall back on.
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oh yes and i do believe you can support 3-port banshees off one base.. after full-mineral saturation that is.
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On January 10 2011 02:34 threehundred wrote:
oh yes and i do believe you can support 3-port banshees off one base.. after full-mineral saturation that is.
This isnt a mineral limited build. You can only get enough gas in time for 2 banshees in the time the banshees in que finishes.
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On January 10 2011 02:15 heyyouyesyou wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 20:56 Quotidian wrote:
the 3rd port helps when you have sloppy macro though.. but yeah, it's been stated several times already that you can only support 2 ports with good macro. How bad must you macro to have 100 extra gas? To macro a 2port banshee build you literally press 4S5A6EE Tada!
I have 100 extra gas more often than I'd like to admit -.-
anyway, I've been tinkering with the idea of viking/banshee/raven on the ladder. Not sure how viable that is either, but it's more interesting than the marine/thor/tank build I've been doing.
Here's a replay, though the game isn't good by any stretch of the imagination:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/126208-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
I guess I could go cloaked ghosts if the zerg goes for infestors, since the vikings snipes overseers so easily, though I'm not sure this build is strong enough on the ground to defend bases if the zerg counterattacks.
If you know of other builds like this, please link to examples.
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EPT
