watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor.
I don't care about Jade's opening build order and whatever cheeses might kill it. It looks pretty solid, might have to be swapped around a bit, who knows, thats not what this thread is about. It's about mech as a midgame/lategame strategy in TvP, whatever it may take to get there.
You should probably watch the replays considering Jade was the protoss and I was talking about the weakness of this build. Second off, how would this work lategame when a stargate is almost guaranteed.
On December 30 2010 18:25 endline wrote: have you encountered phoenix/voids that pick off the tanks, along with a gateway push?
edit: i understand you have rines. pls don't say a few rines will handle it.
Yes i have. Guess it's not in the replays thought it was. Pheonixes are a really bad option as the marines and turrets make quick work of them and if you have the factories already you might as well get some thors out if he's stubborn about pheonix. Void Rays are nothing unless they are hidden very well and slowly massed like Carriers were in BW. This is why I feel safe with delaying the starport until after my 4 factories cuz marines even unupgraded handle them pretty handily early on. Sometimes if i scout robo ill even wait till after a fifth factory before dropping the starport. but after my third i usually, if i'm playing well, drop 2 more starports get all of them with reactors and wait till i see any sort of massed air tech switch action going on before spamming vikings.
well im a t player, and i've tried similar builds. and (can't find the replay unfortunately) got rolled by phoenix voids with blink stalkers and some sentries. i had turrets and rines. this was about when my second was almost saturated and had about 5 tanks - 20 rines 8 or so rauders (scouting showed the air tech, but not the council tech which was hidden well) he came in with about 10 stalkers 2 voids and 4 phoenix, maybe 3 sentries.
maybe i was too high and didnt care, but i got rolled.
hmm I'll have to wait and face more of them. I'm pretty sure I've faced this before but yeah i dunno. i think a mix of blink stalkers and air units is definitely potent but I'd have to face more of that build to figure out a direct way to deal with it or upload a replay of me dealing with it.
I'm just curious as to how blink stalkers pheonix and VR could possible lose to that comp stalkers should melt to that high number of tanks and marauders and the marines should be microed to focus down the air. I could very well have been that you were too high XD.
In my experience the counter to tank heavy play is either a chargealot/stalker/HT/Collossus ball lategame (makes it hard to snipe anything and has good range to deal with tanks).
But in all seriousness I think you're going to have trouble with pheonixes. If he pumps pheonix to counter tanks (esp if he takes the 3rd before you) then he can basically lift the entire tank line. Marines not only can't kill them fast enough but they will auto target the chargealots that come in. If you try to back the marines up the tanks are obviously going to die with zealots next to them, and if you focus fire the pheonix the zealots are going to get next to marines without a problem, which leads to dead marines from both zealot dps and tank splash. You might think your position is defensible but honestly if the pheonix can disable your tanks for even 3 seconds, that gives the toss army the ability to get into range and start decimating you without the benifit of your initial volley (hugely important).
On December 30 2010 18:32 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyxsRo9tlU watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor.
I don't care about Jade's opening build order and whatever cheeses might kill it. It looks pretty solid, might have to be swapped around a bit, who knows, thats not what this thread is about. It's about mech as a midgame/lategame strategy in TvP, whatever it may take to get there.
You should probably watch the replays considering Jade was the protoss and I was talking about the weakness of this build. Second off, how would this work lategame when a stargate is almost guaranteed.
Remember in BW how Mech would be working strong then the protoss would bust out the Carriers and the Terran would then proceed to shit his pants and bust out a load of Goliaths and ultimately win.
That's why i get 3 starports with reactors before doing any intense pushing action. So that when i see stargate i can bust out so many vikings so fast toss can't believe it.
watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor. Edit:added spoiler
I don't understand how you can think this is any sort of argument against the general build being discussed here
there's an early game attack which is rarely seen that would probably be very strong against the opening presented in the OP (an opening which the OP stated was possibly weak and not really the point).
so what point does that make? ... almost anything is weak to something unscouted at a certain point. find me an invincible build and by all means I'll run with it. but to bring up a build that is not common -at all- as some sort of evidence as to the weakness of what the OP is doing is silly.
On December 30 2010 18:50 sikyon wrote: In my experience the counter to tank heavy play is either a chargealot/stalker/HT/Collossus ball lategame (makes it hard to snipe anything and has good range to deal with tanks).
But in all seriousness I think you're going to have trouble with pheonixes. If he pumps pheonix to counter tanks (esp if he takes the 3rd before you) then he can basically lift the entire tank line. Marines not only can't kill them fast enough but they will auto target the chargealots that come in. If you try to back the marines up the tanks are obviously going to die with zealots next to them, and if you focus fire the pheonix the zealots are going to get next to marines without a problem, which leads to dead marines from both zealot dps and tank splash. You might think your position is defensible but honestly if the pheonix can disable your tanks for even 3 seconds, that gives the toss army the ability to get into range and start decimating you without the benifit of your initial volley (hugely important).
This is all very true. But for every Pro there's a Con. The situation you're describing sounds like he's cutting a lot from his ground army going for enough phoenixes to lift all your tanks. which means it'd be that much easier for the marines and hellions to handle their own against any gateway units. especially if the marines are already in bunkers. People don't seem to believe it but hellions are actually cost effective against every gateway unit including the stalker (2 hellions > 1 stalker) and unupgraded marines are actually more powerful than expected which is why i decided it wasn't worth getting stim instead of an extra tank because it wasn't really necessary and if anything it would be bad because I'm not getting Medivacs.
But yes phoenix and gateways could potentially be devastating it all really depends on who macroed better and who micros the battle better.
On December 30 2010 18:50 sikyon wrote: In my experience the counter to tank heavy play is either a chargealot/stalker/HT/Collossus ball lategame (makes it hard to snipe anything and has good range to deal with tanks).
But in all seriousness I think you're going to have trouble with pheonixes. If he pumps pheonix to counter tanks (esp if he takes the 3rd before you) then he can basically lift the entire tank line. Marines not only can't kill them fast enough but they will auto target the chargealots that come in. If you try to back the marines up the tanks are obviously going to die with zealots next to them, and if you focus fire the pheonix the zealots are going to get next to marines without a problem, which leads to dead marines from both zealot dps and tank splash. You might think your position is defensible but honestly if the pheonix can disable your tanks for even 3 seconds, that gives the toss army the ability to get into range and start decimating you without the benifit of your initial volley (hugely important).
It would take a silly number of phoenixes to completely disable the kind of tank lines that show up in late game. If that happens, it's already been mentioned that thors roll over phoenixes, and there would surely be a good number of vikings in play. Certainly, he might disallow a few tank shots, but is it really worth the sacrifice of 10+ phoenixes?
My biggest gripe with this build is that I haven't seen any good close games yet. Maybe there is some I just need to watch more replays. All the replays I have watched is you owning them. By that I don't mean that tank play is just so strong. All of them have tried something silly like cannon rushes into 4gate or just 4gate and failed miserably. That combined with that their macro sucks, you get your 200/200 army when they are not even hitting 150. I want too see big 200 vs 200 battles and if it is possible to beat that standard protoss death ball.
watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor. Edit:added spoiler
I don't understand how you can think this is any sort of argument against the general build being discussed here
there's an early game attack which is rarely seen that would probably be very strong against the opening presented in the OP (an opening which the OP stated was possibly weak and not really the point).
so what point does that make? ... almost anything is weak to something unscouted at a certain point. find me an invincible build and by all means I'll run with it. but to bring up a build that is not common -at all- as some sort of evidence as to the weakness of what the OP is doing is silly.
The point this makes is this build IS weak. I just tried going from 2 gate cyber into double immortal drop, not following a build order, in fact I don't even play protoss. I had the immortals loaded at 8:30 with 1500 minerals and 750 gas banked, with 4 warpgates. Don't tell me you can't improve that . Anyways point is the terran isn't scouting but if the protoss does then the toss just does the drop. This build applies 0 early pressure and 0 scouting. This is the equivalent of going mass voidray I don't see how you think you have to cheese to beat this.
On December 30 2010 19:07 Piski wrote: My biggest gripe with this build is that I haven't seen any good close games yet. Maybe there is some I just need to watch more replays. All the replays I have watched is you owning them. By that I don't mean that tank play is just so strong. All of them have tried something silly like cannon rushes into 4gate or just 4gate and failed miserably. That combined with that their macro sucks, you get your 200/200 army when they are not even hitting 150. I want too see big 200 vs 200 battles and if it is possible to beat that standard protoss death ball.
I really wish I played terran so I could test that out myself. As it is, I play protoss, so if anyone wants to try to throw 200/200 armies at each other in practice some time, that would be fun. I'm 2.2k diamond so I should be able to put up a good fight.
watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor. Edit:added spoiler
I don't understand how you can think this is any sort of argument against the general build being discussed here
there's an early game attack which is rarely seen that would probably be very strong against the opening presented in the OP (an opening which the OP stated was possibly weak and not really the point).
so what point does that make? ... almost anything is weak to something unscouted at a certain point. find me an invincible build and by all means I'll run with it. but to bring up a build that is not common -at all- as some sort of evidence as to the weakness of what the OP is doing is silly.
The point this makes is this build IS weak. I just tried going from 2 gate cyber into double immortal drop, not following a build order, in fact I don't even play protoss. I had the immortals loaded at 8:30 with 1500 minerals and 750 gas banked, with 4 warpgates. Don't tell me you can't improve that . Anyways point is the terran isn't scouting but if the protoss does then the toss just does the drop. This build applies 0 early pressure and 0 scouting. This is the equivalent of going mass voidray I don't see how you think you have to cheese to build this.
You're not getting it. Nobody's talking about this specific build order except you. All we care about is the eventual mech composition. You could 5 rax no gas for the first 10 minutes for all I care, and as long as you eventually transition into mech that would be valid to this discussion. You're trying to tell me that early expanding in TvP is not viable, which is a completely different issue. We're talking about mech here.
watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor. Edit:added spoiler
I don't understand how you can think this is any sort of argument against the general build being discussed here
there's an early game attack which is rarely seen that would probably be very strong against the opening presented in the OP (an opening which the OP stated was possibly weak and not really the point).
so what point does that make? ... almost anything is weak to something unscouted at a certain point. find me an invincible build and by all means I'll run with it. but to bring up a build that is not common -at all- as some sort of evidence as to the weakness of what the OP is doing is silly.
The point this makes is this build IS weak. I just tried going from 2 gate cyber into double immortal drop, not following a build order, in fact I don't even play protoss. I had the immortals loaded at 8:30 with 1500 minerals and 750 gas banked, with 4 warpgates. Don't tell me you can't improve that . Anyways point is the terran isn't scouting but if the protoss does then the toss just does the drop. This build applies 0 early pressure and 0 scouting. This is the equivalent of going mass voidray I don't see how you think you have to cheese to beat this.
Okay I'll settle this once and for all. Watch the game against OrangeApples. He goes for a warp Prism drop at right around the timing you mentioned. Now it wasn't a 2 immortal drop it ended up being 1 stalker i picked off for free but if you notice. I pull 6 marines and 1 tank while leaving my base very well defended at the front. 6 marines 1 tank and a few SCV's pulled off the line are enough to handle 2 immortals. You'll take damage but the result will be most costly to himt han you assuming you get his Immortals and Warp Prism. btw you'll note that i already have turrets up in time to stop that i just had poor turret placement in that game. Done. No point in discussing this anymore just talk about Mech in general and not the weaknesses of the standard and flexible 1 rax FE.
I'm not trying to flame anyone, I'm trying to tell you that you simply cannot safely transition to this many tanks, factories, upgrades, ect. unless you are at a major advantage, in which case this wouldn't matter much. The only time I see this being a possible transition is on 4+ bases in which case air units are easily obtainable. I'm by no means a very high level player, but you don't see high level players doing some kind of 20 minute push as their first push as I've seen in one of these replays. Tell me, if both players are constantly trading armies, and all of a sudden you drop 10 factories and get research and all that stuff, who do you think will have a smaller army right there.
In the replay with Orangeapples he drops one stalker on your cliff and you kill it at 14 minutes. Considering he dropped one stalker and you have tanks and marines, you blind countered him. Since you play terran, do you usually drop one marauder at 14 minutes in and expect it do any major damage? Any early pressure will melt this build, and sustained pressure will melt mech.
Talking about mech in general, yes its very very strong. In fact, a huge mech army should wreck anything. But you would be better of with an air ball with all that money. Ravens, BCs, and vikings are more versatile IMO and you can transition from marine/viking to them.
the only real problem are void and in late game carrier, on the ground tanks(when u reach 15/20) can annihilate any units in one second... another thing that is really important to do is to upgrade firepower, mech benefit too much from these upgrades
also you must have a good number of tanks really fast(about 15 in 12/13min), sou can push him hard
On December 30 2010 20:26 Garmer wrote: the only real problem are void and in late game carrier, on the ground tanks(when u reach 15/20) can annihilate any units in one second... another thing that is really important to do is to upgrade firepower, mech benefit too much from these upgrades
also you must have a good number of tanks really fast(about 15 in 12/13min), sou can push him hard
You pretty much need 200/200 mech to be able to push vs protoss or you will get plowed over due to the absence of spidermines in sc2, which was pretty much the only thing that made timing pushes viable in bw. 200/200 tank/hellion/viking is strong as hell though and pretty much annihliates any protoss ground army.
Carriers are pretty hard to counter though, which wouldnt be the case if terran had goliaths instead of vikings so you wouldnt have to choose between anti-ground and anti-air. Carriers are fully counterable if you scout them early though
i wonder if there are just no thread or whatever but biomech seems to be the best build for me. and im not talking about 1factory or 2factory biomech but 3/4rax 4/5factory 1/2starports biomech with MMM tank hellion ghost viking, thats really good combo that can counter everything (even P air). i've had a great succes with it and with MMM you dont have to be worried about blink stalkers abusing your tank immobility and with marines/vikings (perhaps even thors) to counter protoss air.
basically i go reactor marine expand into 1 or 2 factory (tanks or hellions), add more rax so im on about 3rax 2fact or 4rax 1fact on 2 base and take 3rd quickly, play defensively, onnce im on 3base i get ghosts and more factories and aim for deadly 200/200 push with combo mentioned above
On December 30 2010 18:32 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyxsRo9tlU watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor.
I don't care about Jade's opening build order and whatever cheeses might kill it. It looks pretty solid, might have to be swapped around a bit, who knows, thats not what this thread is about. It's about mech as a midgame/lategame strategy in TvP, whatever it may take to get there.
You should probably watch the replays considering Jade was the protoss and I was talking about the weakness of this build. Second off, how would this work lategame when a stargate is almost guaranteed.
imo its a good thing if you force a toss into spending a lot of gas on stargate units since they are much weaker/easier to deal than HT's/colossus.
Im a 3000 random player and in my tvp matchups i usually go for an thor expand into mass mech. This sounds a bit unusual but it works quite well against everything. You have your expo building at around 6:30 and youre safe against all kind of pushes like voidrays or 4 gate. if you scout him goging voidrays just add a couple of vikings cause of the mobility of the thors. In midgame you can transition into normal tank thor hellion and while youre expanding all across the map always try to drop hellions or just go for the run-by.
I've got a replay against a 3k protoss player who tries to counter the mech with mass speedrays:
EPT
. Anyways point is the terran isn't scouting but if the protoss does then the toss just does the drop. This build applies 0 early pressure and 0 scouting. This is the equivalent of going mass voidray I don't see how you think you have to cheese to beat this.
