On December 30 2010 17:50 MUirbeqU wrote: OK, first off, warp prisms cost 200 minerals, marines, bunkers, and turrets cost alot more, Second off, you should have lost when the immortals were dropped, not to mention warp prisms can warp stalkers in for the hellions or whatever you need. Third off, your immobile army is now not mobile at all with turrets and bunkers. It would be a good option to drop you mineral line with prisms.
I personally think of the bunkers as spider mines. they are basically free cuz as you slow push towards him you can salvage the ones you leave in your trail. also turrets are only 100 mins for super good AA and detection. Warp prisms also die EXTREMELY quickly so the second they fly over your stuff they basically die.
Dropping in the mineral line can be dealt with pretty simply. Either you have units there already in the early portion or after you leave your base is already surrounded with turrets and warp prisms as said are very fragile. I never lost a game due to Warp Prisms despite having them used against me. I did however lose a game where they were used against me but not because of them directly and it was at a key timing that it was used. Right as i was expanding. And it was one of them 4 gate robo stargate builds off one base which is INCREDIBLY all-in.
... okay you cannot be saturating your bases, making turrets and bunkers, making hellions, making marines, off of 2 half full bases. You also can't completely stop prism drops on your mineral lines unless you have some massive anti-air ability which this build doesn't have. You can't kill immortals with a few 0/0 non stim marines (300 hp plus 1 armor on 200 of it). If you make static defense everywhere, you will probably find plenty of protoss expos with a mothership and carriers (insert whatever here) Edit: actually the drop just has to contain you and you loose.
On December 30 2010 17:50 MUirbeqU wrote: OK, first off, warp prisms cost 200 minerals, marines, bunkers, and turrets cost alot more, Second off, you should have lost when the immortals were dropped, not to mention warp prisms can warp stalkers in for the hellions or whatever you need. Third off, your immobile army is now not mobile at all with turrets and bunkers. It would be a good option to drop you mineral line with prisms.
I personally think of the bunkers as spider mines. they are basically free cuz as you slow push towards him you can salvage the ones you leave in your trail. also turrets are only 100 mins for super good AA and detection. Warp prisms also die EXTREMELY quickly so the second they fly over your stuff they basically die.
Dropping in the mineral line can be dealt with pretty simply. Either you have units there already in the early portion or after you leave your base is already surrounded with turrets and warp prisms as said are very fragile. I never lost a game due to Warp Prisms despite having them used against me. I did however lose a game where they were used against me but not because of them directly and it was at a key timing that it was used. Right as i was expanding. And it was one of them 4 gate robo stargate builds off one base which is INCREDIBLY all-in.
... okay you cannot be saturating your bases, making turrets and bunkers, making hellions, making marines, off of 2 half full bases. You also can't completely stop prism drops on your mineral lines unless you have some massive anti-air ability which this build doesn't have. You can't kill immortals with a few 0/0 non stim marines (300 hp plus 1 armor on 200 of it). If you make static defense everywhere, you will probably find plenty of protoss expos with a mothership and carriers (insert whatever here) Edit: actually the drop just has to contain you and you loose.
excuse me? meching terran doesnt care if he's contained because he's not moving out until his third is done and he has a big tank fleet anyways. lol. your warp prism will get dealt with by a turtling terran quite handily. Warp prisms are only scary to mech if theyre rushed super early game or if theyre used to storm your scvs late game.
On December 30 2010 17:50 MUirbeqU wrote: OK, first off, warp prisms cost 200 minerals, marines, bunkers, and turrets cost alot more, Second off, you should have lost when the immortals were dropped, not to mention warp prisms can warp stalkers in for the hellions or whatever you need. Third off, your immobile army is now not mobile at all with turrets and bunkers. It would be a good option to drop you mineral line with prisms.
I personally think of the bunkers as spider mines. they are basically free cuz as you slow push towards him you can salvage the ones you leave in your trail. also turrets are only 100 mins for super good AA and detection. Warp prisms also die EXTREMELY quickly so the second they fly over your stuff they basically die.
Dropping in the mineral line can be dealt with pretty simply. Either you have units there already in the early portion or after you leave your base is already surrounded with turrets and warp prisms as said are very fragile. I never lost a game due to Warp Prisms despite having them used against me. I did however lose a game where they were used against me but not because of them directly and it was at a key timing that it was used. Right as i was expanding. And it was one of them 4 gate robo stargate builds off one base which is INCREDIBLY all-in.
... okay you cannot be saturating your bases, making turrets and bunkers, making hellions, making marines, off of 2 half full bases. You also can't completely stop prism drops on your mineral lines unless you have some massive anti-air ability which this build doesn't have. You can't kill immortals with a few 0/0 non stim marines (300 hp plus 1 armor on 200 of it). If you make static defense everywhere, you will probably find plenty of protoss expos with a mothership and carriers (insert whatever here)
Just watch the replays dude. i think one of them there actually was a guy that went mothership against me. And marines without stim actually do kill immortals quite well athankyou sir.
I actually find it hard to process how you think buildings turrets and bunkers is bad cuz it limits mobility. Have you watched or played BW TvP at all? there's ways to compensate for being immobile with the tanks and that's giving the protoss a reason to attack you.
I mean drops are obviously going to be good against Mech players that much is given bu you dont autowin by dropping 2 immortals in someones base lol. it might suck for a minute while the Terran goes and deals with it just like it sucks to have 4 hellions dropped in a toss main and those 4 hellions take out the ENTIRE ECONOMY but you know.
I'm pretty sure 6 unstimmed marines is what it takes to kill an immortal, though I'll check up on that. Anyway, your basic argument is that if the terran isn't good enough to hold off a drop, he loses. Extremely insightful, I guess this build is useless after all!
I hope this catches on. I would like to see a big ass carrier transition before I die.
Against immo drops can't he just get banshees and vikings? I mean one viking + banshee combo can stop all drops. I have only watched few replays though.
This should give you an idea of what happens to your tanks. I'm sure you will like destroying you SCVs, marines, tanks and whatever you want with friendly fire. And i did watch a replay, Jade seems to have gotten to diamond with a 1 base 4 gate all in, yet it took you 30 minutes to kill him. Not trying to be offensive, but with any creative play this build gets destroyed.
On December 30 2010 18:13 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BI9k2jcPsQ This should give you an idea of what happens to your tanks. I'm sure you will like destroying you SCVs, marines, tanks and whatever you want with friendly fire. And i did watch a replay, Jade seems to have gotten to diamond with a 1 base 4 gate all in, yet it took you 30 minutes to kill him. Not trying to be offensive, but with any creative play this build gets destroyed.
When going mech I would say that 30min games are pretty standard :> That's ingame time. Isn't the whole idea of mech is that you slowly crawl your way to his base so what did you expect.
Also that game was cross positions meta, which is pretty long
On December 30 2010 18:13 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BI9k2jcPsQ This should give you an idea of what happens to your tanks. I'm sure you will like destroying you SCVs, marines, tanks and whatever you want with friendly fire. And i did watch a replay, Jade seems to have gotten to diamond with a 1 base 4 gate all in, yet it took you 30 minutes to kill him. Not trying to be offensive, but with any creative play this build gets destroyed.
When going mech I would say that 30min games are pretty standard :> That's ingame time. Isn't the whole idea of mech is that you slowly crawl your way to his base so what did you expect.
Also that game was cross positions meta, which is pretty long
I literally showed you what happens when you drop a unit on mass tanks. last I remember, people did this in BW. Immortals take 10 damage max for their first 100 health. Tanks take some amount of friendly fire damage but they are armored therefore increasing the damage. Zealots are light and take only 35 damage, upgraded marines have 45 health. I say dropping 1 immortal will pay back for the drop.
On December 30 2010 18:18 giuocob wrote: Oh no, the protoss is going to tech switch to infestors and kill a tank and a couple marines while I sit back and twiddle my thumbs! TvP is broken!
...seriously dude, where are you trying to go with this?
*facepalm* drops on mineral lines or tanks would be very juicy to watch.
Dude, WE KNOW that dropping stuff on tanks kills the tanks, you're about 8 years late on that revelation. The simple response is to KILL THE PRISM BEFORE IT GETS TO YOU. It takes very few stim marines to kill a 140 hp flying unit (and yes, if the game goes long enough that this sort of thing starts going on, stim becomes worth it.)
On December 30 2010 18:13 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BI9k2jcPsQ This should give you an idea of what happens to your tanks. I'm sure you will like destroying you SCVs, marines, tanks and whatever you want with friendly fire. And i did watch a replay, Jade seems to have gotten to diamond with a 1 base 4 gate all in, yet it took you 30 minutes to kill him. Not trying to be offensive, but with any creative play this build gets destroyed.
Yeah...too bad toss doesn't have infestors :/.
Jokes aside yeah if your tanks are away from turrets and bunkers and vikings (all of which i get in my composition) then dropping units on top of the tanks would obviously be strong. Doesn't mean to composition completely sucks.
I got an idea. Go watch Day9 Daily number 130 Jinro's Mech in TvP. That's where i got the basic idea of how to go about pushing tho Jinro goes 1/1/1 instead of FE and cuts tanks for Ravens and uses more hellions than I do. Yeah int eh end of the Daily Jinro lost 1 of the many games to Pheonix but I've faced Pheonix and I gotta tell ya. Thors are amazing against Pheonixes.
As for Zlots closing in on your tanks the hellions and the bunkers are what stop that if you tag a good position and that's really what Mech is all about is key positioning.
Ex: The center area of Jungle Basin. You have the watch towers so you can track all movement around you so if his army goes on either end to flank or to hit your bases you can easily reposition or just push forward. also if he takes the middle expo on his end you can slowly push tanks forward enough just in range of his nexus so he's forced to attack you or lose his expo. Just examples.
watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor. Edit:added spoiler
On December 30 2010 18:25 endline wrote: have you encountered phoenix/voids that pick off the tanks, along with a gateway push?
edit: i understand you have rines. pls don't say a few rines will handle it.
Yes i have. Guess it's not in the replays thought it was. Pheonixes are a really bad option as the marines and turrets make quick work of them and if you have the factories already you might as well get some thors out if he's stubborn about pheonix. Void Rays are nothing unless they are hidden very well and slowly massed like Carriers were in BW. This is why I feel safe with delaying the starport until after my 4 factories cuz marines even unupgraded handle them pretty handily early on. Sometimes if i scout robo ill even wait till after a fifth factory before dropping the starport. but after my third i usually, if i'm playing well, drop 2 more starports get all of them with reactors and wait till i see any sort of massed air tech switch action going on before spamming vikings.
BUT i do use that first reactor starport as soon as i get it i don't wait until i see air tech before getting any vikings cuz they are just awesome to have with mech even in few numbers. They do additional damage against Collossi and also they make for good spotters for your tanks and keep the protoss weary that you have them so switching to air may or may not save him and can scare him into trying to win on the ground which goes in my favor.
On December 30 2010 18:32 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyxsRo9tlU watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor.
Dude... did you watch that vid. the Prism doesn't get to Idra's base till pretty much the 8 minute mark.
what race do you play even I'm trying to figure out if you're a Terran who just doesn't want to accept anything new or a Protoss that just likes shutting people down on forums lol.
On December 30 2010 18:25 endline wrote: have you encountered phoenix/voids that pick off the tanks, along with a gateway push?
edit: i understand you have rines. pls don't say a few rines will handle it.
Yes i have. Guess it's not in the replays thought it was. Pheonixes are a really bad option as the marines and turrets make quick work of them and if you have the factories already you might as well get some thors out if he's stubborn about pheonix. Void Rays are nothing unless they are hidden very well and slowly massed like Carriers were in BW. This is why I feel safe with delaying the starport until after my 4 factories cuz marines even unupgraded handle them pretty handily early on. Sometimes if i scout robo ill even wait till after a fifth factory before dropping the starport. but after my third i usually, if i'm playing well, drop 2 more starports get all of them with reactors and wait till i see any sort of massed air tech switch action going on before spamming vikings.
well im a t player, and i've tried similar builds. and (can't find the replay unfortunately) got rolled by phoenix voids with blink stalkers and some sentries. i had turrets and rines. this was about when my second was almost saturated and had about 5 tanks - 20 rines 8 or so rauders (scouting showed the air tech, but not the council tech which was hidden well) he came in with about 10 stalkers 2 voids and 4 phoenix, maybe 3 sentries.
maybe i was too high and didnt care, but i got rolled.
On December 30 2010 18:32 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyxsRo9tlU watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor.
Dude... did you watch that vid. the Prism doesn't get to Idra's base till pretty much the 8 minute mark.
what race do you play even I'm trying to figure out if you're a Terran who just doesn't want to accept anything new or a Protoss that just likes shutting people down on forums lol.
My bad forgot that the game clock is different. I play zerg. Anyways having the gates and robo is standard protoss play, So you can basically drop at the 9 minute mark if you spot this play. Even at 10 minutes, you would be completely unprepared.
On December 30 2010 18:32 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUyxsRo9tlU watch that Kiwikaki vs Idra. Use the same build order you have 2 immortals in your base at 6 minutes. 8:33 in the Jade replay you have a wholesome army of 11 marines, now if you think you can fend this off with 11 marines, you are wrong. I'm giving you 2:33 seconds extra too so this should take into account the scouting factor.
I don't care about Jade's opening build order and whatever cheeses might kill it. It looks pretty solid, might have to be swapped around a bit, who knows, thats not what this thread is about. It's about mech as a midgame/lategame strategy in TvP, whatever it may take to get there.
On December 30 2010 18:13 MUirbeqU wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BI9k2jcPsQ This should give you an idea of what happens to your tanks. I'm sure you will like destroying you SCVs, marines, tanks and whatever you want with friendly fire. And i did watch a replay, Jade seems to have gotten to diamond with a 1 base 4 gate all in, yet it took you 30 minutes to kill him. Not trying to be offensive, but with any creative play this build gets destroyed.
When going mech I would say that 30min games are pretty standard :> That's ingame time. Isn't the whole idea of mech is that you slowly crawl your way to his base so what did you expect.
Also that game was cross positions meta, which is pretty long
I literally showed you what happens when you drop a unit on mass tanks. last I remember, people did this in BW. Immortals take 10 damage max for their first 100 health. Tanks take some amount of friendly fire damage but they are armored therefore increasing the damage. Zealots are light and take only 35 damage, upgraded marines have 45 health. I say dropping 1 immortal will pay back for the drop.
I played bw so yes I know zealot drops on tank was great. BW terrans didn't have vikings and banshees to help them though. Also against zealot they didn't have blue flame hellions. ALSO as you said the zealot drop was awesome in bw but yet still tank play works and is the main way to play the matchup? Would immortal drops be good vs this play, of course they would. Some of them would work, some of them wouldn't but that doesn't mean mech play is out of the question. With a good mix and tank spread the immortals would kill few tanks but if you have good siege line and good support from other units like vikings/banshees/hellions I don't see why this couldn't work.
I'm sure there is some other problems otherwise we would see it more in pro games but I'm talking about diamond league here, even high diamond, which is miles from pro play.
EPT
