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I also find it hard to find replays with broodlords, but the biggest reason is simply because P's and T's know they can't just wait around for Z to get to T3.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-177452.jpg)
vs 2800 zerg
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-177454.jpg)
vs 2400 zerg (under 250 games I'm thinkin a smurf)
There's two for you. Mid level diamond, where zergs transition to broodlords. It didn't win them the games, as they used them stupidly. But it forces reactor vikings (at least from me) which is sure costly..
How do you propose getting all the way to greater spire without your opponent getting any air units or at least the economy to make a couple?
We're too busy scanning for new expos, sometimes we forget to scan main. And when we do, who's to say spire is there and whos to say that we even see hive, or see the greater spire.
Just drop a GS and an ultra den, it's two DIFFERENT tech paths we gotta get into to counter two different things. Just have the buildings to change.
A lotta zergs having trouble are staying T2 against T3 terran, which isn't smart at all.
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On December 31 2010 07:56 Rizzie wrote:
They're absolutely killer when fully upgraded (52 first hit, 26 after) to almost every ground unit. The only exception to that would be a swarm of Goliaths, but those don't exist in Melee.
Are you sure about those numbers?
It's 26 damage fully upgraded, and it spawns 2 broodlings on the first hit, but does it mean that the damages are doubled?
For the record, colossi deal 42 AREA damage fully upgraded which IS killer.
BL are good, but not cost efficient for damage. Anyway when you are able to buy BL, money is not a problem, so the efficiency is towards larvae or pop. Since you aren't likely to be short of larva, its advantage is to be pop efficient. It's only 4!
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Brood Lords are incredibly strong units in the mid game to end game. No one rushes for brood lords, and they are usually pretty situational. If you see a lot of ground-based forces (zerglings, roaches, zealots, marauders, siege tanks, collosus, immortals), then Brood Lords are going to be a great tech for you in the later game. If you're already making a lot of corrupters to counter things like collosi, carriers, then it can usually be a pretty natural switch into Brood Lords. An important thing with BLs is to not force them into your build when you don't need them. Too many zergs think BLs mean they can win easily without having to micro or position, but they end up attacking at a horrible angle and losing while thinking "damn brood lords suck, never getting them again." Well obviously you're not going to get broods against mass marines, blink stalkers, or mass vikings. Playing Zerg is all about countering the enemy army, or playing the 300 food army game. Brood Lords shouldn't be treated any differently.
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Ugh.. don't NEED mass vikings. Need like 5 or 6. It's such a small investment in comparison it's frightening. And it's not like protoss has to go out of the way to get blink stalkers. They compose 80% of any given toss army anyway.
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Broodlords are not that cost efficient.
But that simply doesnt matter, because with the way zerg plays, by the time you get to broodlords, either you are at an economy advantage, or you are dead.
When you are at an economy advantage, you no longer have to worry about stuff being cost efficient, its about it being efficient.
All the other zerg stuff has low range, and thus gets terrible in 200 food fights.
Broodlords have good range, thus unlike other zerg units, they actually scale well with a bigger fight on a tiny map.
If zerg had a T3 unit that was the same as a roach, except cost 3 times more, and had 9 range.. Well guess what? It wouldnt be cost efficient, but we would still throw some of those in.
Low range units start to suck when the map doesnt allow you to get a surrond, and you are fighting a 200 food army against another 200 food army, or close to that.
It has enough range to still be good in a big fight, and thats pretty much it.
It a unit that can actually attack the opponent's army, so that during the fight, 50% of your army is fighting, instead of just 30%. That makes it good enough really. The broodlings and supply efficiency are really just icing on the cake.
Once you get to 200/200, have a few thousand minerals saved up, and are ahead 2 bases on your opponent, cost efficiency really doesnt matter much.
Having units that can actually dent his army, at any cost.. That really starts to matter.
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On December 31 2010 08:11 AlgoFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 07:56 Rizzie wrote:
They're absolutely killer when fully upgraded (52 first hit, 26 after) to almost every ground unit. The only exception to that would be a swarm of Goliaths, but those don't exist in Melee. Are you sure about those numbers? It's 26 damage fully upgraded, and it spawns 2 broodlings on the first hit, but does it mean that the damages are doubled? For the record, colossi deal 42 AREA damage fully upgraded which IS killer. BL are good, but not cost efficient for damage. Anyway when you are able to buy BL, money is not a problem, so the efficiency is towards larvae or pop. Since you aren't likely to be short of larva, its advantage is to be pop efficient. It's only 4!
Yes, I am sure.
One attack is 26 damage and requires 2 broodlings.
If it has 2 broodlings, it attacks twice in quick succession.
At least that's what happens with me
Correct me if I'm wrong please.
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i think broodlords are powerful if you design your gameplan around them. its a touchy unit and has to be played properly. what if we utilise its range and compliemnt them with hydras/banelings. upgrading ground armor the hwole way through the game so when you have your army of hydras, banelings, and broodlords the groudn armor with be +3. broodlings will benefit from that and make them more effective tanks, banelings will benefit with more time ot get to target and hydras wont melt like they always seem to do.
...?
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I find brood lords especially effective against turtles, and especially a terran turtle.. Say you have a game play to go muta but your opponent goes for thor.. if you don't go brood lord that is wasted tech, especially if you've done any upgrades.. So with that in mind it's a great idea to go brood lords, especially since they are really effective against thors.. back them up with some roach hydra and often times its a gg.
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Broods range, along with the fact broodlings tank damage and block enemy units is amazing. Think of it as an infinite supply of little weak zerglings. I think like most expensive units, you need to hit a critical mass or they aren't that great. 1 Colossus can be sniped in a few seconds, but once you get to 1shotting marines or lings with X amount of Colossi, they're pretty damn amazing.
If you mix them in with Roach/Hydra/any ranged unit, it's pretty win.
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Broodlords' value depends on their positioning, as they mess with Thor/Marine AI.
Pair with cracklings and laugh at any stalker army.
Also king of lategame ZvZ
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On December 31 2010 08:01 iAmJeffReY wrote:A lotta zergs having trouble are staying T2 against T3 terran, which isn't smart at all. Terrans basically never go T3 (BCs, arguably HSM).
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On December 31 2010 19:04 Pwere wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 08:01 iAmJeffReY wrote:A lotta zergs having trouble are staying T2 against T3 terran, which isn't smart at all. Terrans basically never go T3 (BCs, arguably HSM).
Arguably mass, upgraded thor or large numbers of ghosts could be called T3 as well. And yeah, the latter doesn't happen at all and the former is relatively rare.
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brood lords are position busters, great for seige tanks and thors, not amazing vs marines unless you have ground units to get in the way - same vs stalkers and blink. They can be used to deny expo's and are rather a niche situational unit for zerg. I wouldn't get them because they are good but rather they are going to aid me in what I want to do in the long term game.
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Cost efficiency and Zerg do not go together.
Broods are expensive as hell and are not scary unless you have 6 or more of them in __one__ place. Even then they die to anything that moves faster than slow overlord. It's still the "best" choice for Zerg in the very late game, though.
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They are good to force a Terran to unsiege his Siege Tanks. They´re also good at 200/200 compared to the other units Zerg has but they´re nowhere near cost effective compared to Protoss and Terran units.
They will always be good against Terran at a non-top level as people let themselves be surprised by them. Watching top Terrans streaming and they are constantly scanning the Zerg´s spire - these Terrans very effectively counter the Brood Lords with Vikings.
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If a terran is going bio or biomech, they cannot deal with broodlord + baneling at all... Also they can't transition to vikings fast enough to counter. I've lost 2-3 games in the past two days to this because I play marine tank medivac against zerg, and a quick broodlord transition from roach baneling just murders me because I'm usually on 8-10 rax 2 fact and 1 reactor port. 1 reactor port can't deal with the corrupters in time, and marines can't charge the broodlords because first the broodlings get in the way and charging TOWARDs banelings is suicide...
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I learned the hard way in a 3v3 that Thors match Brood Lord range GtA. I also already learned the hard way that you always have to keep them with your army.
... I'm a hard knocks player. If I haven't lost the same way 20+ times I can't guarentee I won't try to lose that way again.
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On December 31 2010 08:01 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +I also find it hard to find replays with broodlords, but the biggest reason is simply because P's and T's know they can't just wait around for Z to get to T3.
vs 2800 zerg vs 2400 zerg (under 250 games I'm thinkin a smurf) There's two for you. Mid level diamond, where zergs transition to broodlords. It didn't win them the games, as they used them stupidly. But it forces reactor vikings (at least from me) which is sure costly..
I actually watched both of these because I have that kind of time, and I'm surprised nobody's pointed out how the second replay is actually a demonstration of how to fail at ultralisks, not brood lords. I know it feels like they're the same unit because they both require hive, but they're different- really. Maybe it because you said that they weren't used right- now that's no fun.
Give them a scan at 8x speed, and you will notice how the t3 units didn't really support anything. Once they hit, they tried to become most of the army. The brood lords flew off and attacked a structure alone, and that accomplished the destruction of a few depots and missile turrets. Not even the PF they were attacking. When the ultralisks popped, they, because they comprised 3/4 of the army, CAERGDE in and got mollywhomped. These are units that cost more than most buildings to get to, you're not going to have 200/200 of exclusively them BGH style.
Why do people make excessive amounts of these units and try to smash face with them? It's like they're so shocked that they got them to begin with that all their previous zerg training flies out the window.
We need a Day[9] daily that forbids people from attacking zerg until the 12 minute mark. This way, every game against zerg becomes a large base macro battle. Will they have an advantage? Dur. But getting as many games with them as we have early roach plays and spine crawler positioning to counter hellions and "omg speedlings just in time" is the only way we're gonna learn to use them in ways that aren't hulk smash.
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Regarding the posts suggesting that only 5-6 vikings will counter broodlords, 5-6 vikings are a joke to any reasonably-sized combo of muta/corruptor/infestor/hydra . . . Considering that spire tech almost always involves ~10 mutas at some point and that corruptors are a prerequisite to broodloords, a quick handful of vikings will likely have to fight through a superior air force to get at the broodlords. And of course existing mass vikings maintaining air superiority preclude broodlords from being considered in the first place, right?
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broodlords are ridiculous because of broodlings. If broodlords did zero damage they would still be good. if you ever get an army advatage and you have broodlords you win. Any small army will spend half of its time killing free units that spawn constantly while dying to the real units.
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EPT
