On December 14 2010 03:58 heyyouyesyou wrote:
I might be a terran but your guide helped me understand zerg more and how to cue for specific responses.

i find myself in the same position.

guide is awesome cause it underlines some of the core ideas in ZvT. kudos to you, topic opener

Lazarus Jack

13 Posts

December 13 2010 20:26 GMT

#22

This is a really great guide, the unit comp and build order response pictures are especially helpful. Thanks for sharing and keep it up

SubtleArt

2710 Posts

December 13 2010 20:28 GMT

#23

Nice guide :D Why isn't this spotlighted??

stk01001

United States786 Posts

December 13 2010 20:28 GMT

#24

Great guide... agree with pretty much everything in it. This guide truly does define "standard" ZvT play nowadays.. and he's 100% right about 15 hatching whenever you can.

One thing I'd add is stressing the importance of using mutas to pick off tanks against marine/tank/medivac which seems to be the most popular composition nowadays. I'd say at least 60-70% of my ZvT is against pure marine/siege tank/medivac (thank you foxer) and being able to pick off tanks with mutas to keep tank numbers low is so key to winning IMO. Most terrans at some point will leave stray tanks out in the open with little/no marine support and with a nice muta ball it's fairly easy to pick them off with good micro. You should always be able to pick off some tanks unless the terran is really, really good. Sometimes if the terran has bad micro I can actually pick off ALL of his siege tanks while he's pusing down to my natural and then it's so LOL to clean up with ling/baneling.

It's also very important when facing marine/tank/medivac to be VERY PATIENT. Do not get over anxious and run your entire army into all his sieged up tanks. I've lost sooo many ZvT's because I get over eager and try and crush his army and end up losing all my banes to siege tanks. Any good terran will run his marines away and let his tanks destroy your banes.. it just won't work. This is why you have to use mutas to pick off tanks and wait for the exact right time to rush in... sometimes a terran will unsiege all his tanks at once and these are the key times you want to attack. It's so important that you wait for the right moment though, can't stress that enough. Ling/muta/baneling army's are so delicate and can evaporate very quickly if you are not careful.. you'll lose the game before you can even blink.. and once you lose all your banes if he keeps rallying in marines/medivacs your basically dead. marine/medivac is just so powerful against muta/ling with no banelings. especially if the marines are upgraded. It's kind if ridiculous how badly 3/3 marines tear up mutas..

Also regarding roach's vs mech.. they work OK for a while, but eventually mech will tear roach's apart unless you have broodlord or ultra support (NP helps too) It's really important to rush for broodlords when you scout heavy mech. I really dislike making roach's against terran, although I admit they are neccessary at times. (muta/ling/baneling just will not work vs mass thor/upgraded hellions/tanks) I just find I lose so many more games when I go roach.. but I think the problem is I need to get brood lords up faster.. one of my weaknesses is definately not getting hive tech soon enough.. it just sucks how fast roach's get torn apart sometimes, all they have to do is mix is some marauders with mech and roach's are useless)

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

December 13 2010 20:30 GMT

#25

I checked his profile, he's top 200 in EU, #163
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/1213003
Just to back up what he's saying, epic guy with epic post :D

Saechiis

Netherlands4989 Posts

December 13 2010 20:31 GMT

#26

Great guide, props to OP!

I'm a bit sad with the lack of Terran guides though

Perscienter

957 Posts

December 13 2010 20:35 GMT

#27

I personally go 14 pool, 16 hatch if I want to be secure. If I feel 100% safe, I go 14 hatch. What is the proper response to ebay blocks? Mainhatch or just wait until the block is gone and then expand?

You posted some good arguments about the roach. I really think that hellions are quite toothless. They are not potent vs. speedlings and queens until they reach the number of 4.

I think that the more thors a Terran gets, the less bio firepower he has. His forces will become very immobile and clumsy, while the little bio support won't be able to distribute much damage; and will be out of the way against banelings. Then thors don't stand any chance against masses of zerglings. They are so impotent vs. them.

telfire

United States415 Posts

December 13 2010 20:48 GMT

#28

Jesus dude, thank you so much. This is amazing.

UFO

582 Posts

December 13 2010 21:15 GMT

#29

Mr.Siege, you are insanely awesome <3

I guess I won`t switch to protoss, thank you so much !!!

iRhuel

United States1 Post

December 13 2010 21:17 GMT

#30

Nifty. Keep up the good work, man.

OpAndroid

United States84 Posts

December 13 2010 22:52 GMT

#31

Awesome right up. Definitely helps, as I just switched from Terran to Zerg, and even though I fairly well understood the TvZ matchup, looking at it from the ZvT side is completely different. I know I learned a lot from this, and as others have said, writing up a ZvZ and ZvP breakdown would be awesome. Thanks.

GreatestThreat

United States631 Posts

December 14 2010 00:55 GMT

#32

This is the best written guide I've ever seen on Teamliquid, and the replays are extremely fun to watch as well as educating (better than the GSL, just needs casting!). Thank you for the time put into this, you are a hero zerg.

Echosc2

United States9 Posts

December 14 2010 05:20 GMT

#33

awesome guide keep up the good work

Silentenigma

Turkey2037 Posts

December 14 2010 07:38 GMT

#34

Thx for this!

JoeCrow

United States167 Posts

December 14 2010 08:12 GMT

#35

Wow thank you so much for this post. This is going to help me a ton.

Everlong

Czech Republic1973 Posts

December 14 2010 09:30 GMT

#36

I wish there was something like this for Terran..

sNatch

United States93 Posts

December 14 2010 10:04 GMT

#37

Even though I'm a Terran, this was a very good and interesting read!

Banginglife

United States92 Posts

December 14 2010 10:12 GMT

#38

Wow thats really helpful, especially the visual aids.

ChickenLips

2912 Posts

December 14 2010 10:56 GMT

#39

Extremely nice guide.

You should probably replace 15 hatch with 14 hatch. 14 hatch is better in every regard: It gets blocked less, it mines more minerals, it gets more larvae. No reason to ever 15 hatch. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174374

I really think you're undervaluing Infestors. Mutalisks are extremely nice as they give you intel, map control, slow your opponent down, force a composition by him and deny him free expanding. However, against very aggressive Terrans that just keep on pressuring you with bio at your front while splitting their marines and blocking your banelings with marauders, I feel like Mutalisks are not the way to go. They suck at fighting (Marines are 5 times more cost-efficient in a straight up fight) and if you constantly get pressured you never have a chance to fly your mutalisks into his base to harass. Going ground Zerg against such bio-heavy playstyles (only bio and then medivacs) is, imo, best. I've seen dimaga go with no mutalisks at all with a heavy focus on lings + infestors while upgrading melee + carapace, allowing him to get to ultralisks much quicker.

If you watch IdrA's stream (whose ZvT was once said to be one of the best) he just gets raped by aggressive bio play, even if he delays his mutas until he has a third and gets speedbanes etc., good Terrans will be able to save a chunk of their marines from the speedbanes and that small group then rapes expansions + drones while the Z is trying to rebuild.

If you are ahead, I feel Mutas are the way to go. However if your opponent is able to do economic damage and puts you on the backfoot in the early game, going for units that are actually able to kill the opponent feels like a much more solid way to play to me.

kirdie

Germany221 Posts

December 14 2010 12:58 GMT

#40

I love you ZerG~LegenD! (registered to post this :-))
I have long been searching for a structured, logical ZvT guide because it is my worst matchup by far and I never had an idea what to do when and how to react to what. So it's really appreciated!

I also have a youtube channel under youtube.com/user/kirdiekirdie (though it's in german), so if you want certain points or replays illustrated with a video just send me a pm, I think my english is ok too.