[Q] PvT Pure marauder viking medivac

On December 05 2010 06:25 hitman133 wrote:
Where is HT? and immortals ?

On December 05 2010 07:18 Froadac wrote:

I don't think it's quite that simple t.t

On December 05 2010 07:18 Froadac wrote:

I don't think it's quite that simple t.t

I've toyed with the idea of a storm resistant viking/hellion/marauder game but you must figure out how to get there.

On December 05 2010 08:28 iAmJeffReY wrote:

It takes longer to make collsai, which kinda blow vs marauder/viking. All you needed was a few (read 4-6) immortals, with the rest into chargelots, and a few sentries to FF them into a bad position.

Pure marauder is just asking to be stormed to death with immortals just pounding away on you.


Hardly storm resistant. Marauders get eaten up by storm too, as it'll wear them down incredibly, and having to move means not attacking, being FF means you can't kite right, which means chargelots can concave around, and immortals can eat marauder breakfast

On December 05 2010 08:28 iAmJeffReY wrote:

It takes longer to make collsai, which kinda blow vs marauder/viking. All you needed was a few (read 4-6) immortals, with the rest into chargelots, and a few sentries to FF them into a bad position.

Pure marauder is just asking to be stormed to death with immortals just pounding away on you.


Hardly storm resistant. Marauders get eaten up by storm too, as it'll wear them down incredibly, and having to move means not attacking, being FF means you can't kite right, which means chargelots can concave around, and immortals can eat marauder breakfast

On December 05 2010 07:18 Froadac wrote:

I don't think it's quite that simple t.t

On December 05 2010 09:03 kcdc wrote:
It sounds like you already know that zealots are a big part of the solution. If you've been killing marauders all game but the medivacs have been retreating (and without watching the replay, it sounds like this may have happened) to the point that they have 10+ medivacs, marauders can seem impossible to kill. My first tip is engage in open areas. If T has a lot of medivacs, zealots need surface area to do damage faster than medivacs heal. My second tip is feedback the medivacs and hunt down retreating medivacs with blik stalkers. The last thing I'll note is that if you have a big economic lead and the only thing standing between you and victory is vikings, you can make phoenixes to hunt them down. After vikings start killing your collosi, you can either switch to HT or try to win air control with phoenixes. IMO, phoenixes are the less cost-effective option, but if you have an economic lead, it's a direct and quick way to go. It also deals with the medivac problem.

On December 06 2010 07:12 shingbi wrote:
Scout his whole base with your obs and his expansion. Keep scouting with it.

You know he has vikings and you go out to attack him with colo/zealot and 2 sentries for anti air? How did you expect that would work? And then you don't use your sentries at all. No GS, no FF.

Your base layout could be better. It's very hard for your units to get around your base. You will eventually lose games because of this (a drop/banshee attack will kill all your probes because your units can't get in a position to kill it).

Your macro slips pretty badly while you go out to attack. You should try to line up your additional production buildings with your expansion coming online.

Keep your units in a position to defend both your bases. Of course he has all the time in the world to snipe your expansion nexus if your army is hanging out at your main base.

Could use some more hotkeys. One for your army for starters.

Spread out pylons to give vision (for example on the high ground above your natural, so you can see it if he tries to take down the rocks).

Big battle at 22:00, again no sentry use at all.

Counter wise, the transitions in PvT when playing against MMM will often look like this:

At the start gateway units do well against MM in small numbers. Then as the infantry ball reaches a certain size (and medevacs come out), the protoss gets colos. Then the Terran gets a lot of vikings to kill the colos. At that point the protoss has to get high templar (both to help kill the infantry and to storm the bunched up vikings).

(Of course there are other transitions... straight to templar or I guess stargate, though I don't have much experience with that.)

So given these transitions, protoss can pressure at the very beginning and at the time when you got your colos, but the terran hasn't got enough vikings yet. In order to take full advantage of the second timing, you might want to consider going double robo to get a good number of colos faster. And obviously take some anti air to take care of the few vikings the terran does have. And after that you need to start thinking about getting templar soon.

The main problem is I have no idea how to use forcefield. What is the general principle about using forcefield besides blocking his ramp or blocking retreat?

On December 06 2010 07:50 shingbi wrote:
Depends on the situation.

There's basically three things you can do (aside from blocking retreat). You can drop them on top of your own units (like against zerglings), which will make it harder to get a good surround. You can drop a line of forcefields in the middle of a group of units, which will cut them off and hopefully make it so that some of them can't attack (obviously works better against melee/short ranged units) or you can drop the force field along the line where his attack arc would be, which essentially creates a choke in your favor.

On December 06 2010 07:38 HardCorey wrote:
Yo Froadac, I took a look at your replay and made a video reviewing it. Its a video series ive been doing that I call HardCorey QuestionTime. I thought you played pretty well and had a nice economic and army advantage that you threw away. I talked a bit about how to keep an advantage and spend your money more effectively.

Heres the Link: HardCorey QuestionTime #10: PvT Keeping an Advantage against Terran

My Main Thread


Hope this Helps,
-HardCorey

Edit:Video is Working! :D

On December 06 2010 08:05 FeyFey wrote:
with forcefields you try to split the enemy army in half using the superior range of your units to only fight half of the army and keeping it from reatreating. With superior range i mean stalkers. your zealots would die to fire from behind the forcefield, but people mostly use them as tanks, because terrans often don't start focusing the sentrys with their trapped units and if they would try they are blocked by the zealots. (killing the sentrys will often end in the toss spending more gas on sentrys so a later tech etc)
Playing terran atm and i noticed that a toss often doesn't micro his sentrys back after force fielding, so i focus them down with my trapped units.

Also you can use sentrys to reatreat or keep the enemy from reatreating.

Personally i quickly went away from sentrys because they are to fragile and went to phoenix, because they give you map control, scouting and everything nice. After realising gate way units aren't my taste i used robo stargate unit heavy armys and could win games pretty easily against terrans. (except they went for early ghosts and i let em save up to much energie)

On December 06 2010 08:18 dukethegold wrote:
Chargelots with well placed forcefields would rape pure marauder armies.

That's why Terran needs to mix marines into the bio ball.

On December 06 2010 08:40 GoldenH wrote:
1) If you see mass Marauders, the critical mass of Colossus is 8-9. Furthermore, you have to actually *focus fire* them on a clump of Marauders. The normal 'lol colossus spread their fire over the entire army' doesn't work here. You could have made colossus work if you'd gotten more robo bays. You can support building 1.5 colossus per base, so on 3 bases you could've been building 4 colossus at a time, more than enough to win.

2) lol stalkers are the worst unit in the game, never build them ever. If you need anti-air, build Phoenix. If you need to keep an army away from your colossus, build sentries. Zealots are better than stalkers but worse than sentries.

3) VRs are the 'counter' to his marauder/viking army, but you didn't make enough of them. You can, like Colossus, build 1.5 Starports per base. But he had 6 barracks, so he could build 12 marines to your 4 VRs - the marines will win, especially with viking backup. You have no chance to win with VRs alone in this case unless you can pick off some barracks. You might have succeeded with carriers, ironically.

Edit: Oh, and don't go Immortal, he builds 1 ghost and then his marauders roll over your Immortals.

Hmm thinking about this I think marauder/thor with a scattering of vikings, ghosts and marines should crush Protoss...

On December 06 2010 09:44 Kvothe wrote:


I basically disagree with everything you just posted....
1) critical mass of colossus is 8-9? When do you ever see 8-9 colossus, that is just an absurd amount. Around 5 colossus is good, too many and you lack the ground forces to stop his vikings.

2) stalkers are now the worst unit in the game, news to me. If you are wanting to go gateway units coupled with colossus you need a pretty good spread of zealots and stalkers with several sentries mixed in. Your zealots tank the dmg while the stalkers are protecting your colossus and doing good dmg against his marauders.

3) VRs are now the counter to bio balls, you noticed he switched to marines pretty easily in the match which really hurts VRs. I think you would have done better to have gone phoenix instead of VR.

My advice would be don't go one base colossus, don't attack up his ramp without splitting his army in half. Mix a few immortals in if he has that many marauders, most mid/low diamond will never build a ghost anyway and immortals are very good against marauders. After your first attack failed and you saw how many marauders he started building, i would have completely switched to immortals with your gateway units.

On December 06 2010 10:58 GoldenH wrote:


#1 the more colossus you have, the less stalkers you need. If you have 5 colossus then you will lose many dozens of stalkers and when they are gone the colossus die. If you have 8-9 colossus you will lose no stalkers, so you can get away with just having 6-8 Stalkers for anti air and picking off weak units. A critical mass of Colossus will destroy any clump of marauders in one hit, which is what you want.

#2 Zealots don't tank damage except for damage that was never going to be done anyway. Think about it. More marauders will be able to shoot at a zealot that is close than a colossus that is far away behind a sentry line. Zealots are only good early game to discourage colossus sniping.

#3 How can VRs be the counter to bio balls, when half the bio ball is so efficient that it can kill a VR for 1/3 the cost? It's simply an absurd statement.

On December 06 2010 08:40 GoldenH wrote:
1) If you see mass Marauders, the critical mass of Colossus is 8-9. Furthermore, you have to actually *focus fire* them on a clump of Marauders. The normal 'lol colossus spread their fire over the entire army' doesn't work here. You could have made colossus work if you'd gotten more robo bays. You can support building 1.5 colossus per base, so on 3 bases you could've been building 4 colossus at a time, more than enough to win.

2) lol stalkers are the worst unit in the game, never build them ever. If you need anti-air, build Phoenix. If you need to keep an army away from your colossus, build sentries. Zealots are better than stalkers but worse than sentries.

3) VRs are the 'counter' to his marauder/viking army, but you didn't make enough of them. You can, like Colossus, build 1.5 Starports per base. But he had 6 barracks, so he could build 12 marines to your 4 VRs - the marines will win, especially with viking backup. You have no chance to win with VRs alone in this case unless you can pick off some barracks. You might have succeeded with carriers, ironically.

Edit: Oh, and don't go Immortal, he builds 1 ghost and then his marauders roll over your Immortals.

Hmm thinking about this I think marauder/thor with a scattering of vikings, ghosts and marines should crush Protoss...

On December 06 2010 14:40 us.insurgency wrote:
This helped me a bunch for PvP. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=173199

On December 06 2010 11:54 Kvothe wrote:


Lol alright come play me tvp and you get 6-8 stalkers to defend 9 colossus, I would roll you like a bronze. 6-8 stalkers cannot protect 9 colossus the absurdity of this statement is baffling. Second I want you to play me without getting one single stalker, you wouldn't make it past 5 minutes into the game because i would kite your pure zlots around with 4 marauders early on and you would leave. My third statement was me being sarcastic, you claimed VRs were the counter to marauder/viking which in theory might work if you had 10+ void rays, but once they scout you, they will make marines to go along with their vikings and roll you. The advice I see you are making just seems like lots of theory crafting with no actual experience to back it up, because I assure you this play doesnt happen in high level or even high diamond for that matter.