I am high-level gold player. 3rd place in my division around 1700points. I can beat high level Play toss&terran. But i am getting hard time against zerg.
I am having really really hard time stopping mutas. %90 of my losses agains zerg. Either baneling bust or Mutas. I can stop a few, may be bunch. But when they get the number over 10. I cant stop them. i had 8-10 thors and bunch of marine marauder. Muta ling baneling evaporated everything i had.
My question is, i tried countering with same amount of vikings and +2 armor upgrade, wall off my base with 3-4 tanks&marines. and get as much viking i can. And upgrade the shield. Then transition into BCs. i had 6 BC and killed all the mutas and he transitioned into Hyra, BCs killed hydras really easy.
So my question, is there similar strategy, with better build and execution order? Or is there any tips? I may add 5-6 banshees into the mix since i always try to open with banshee harras against Zerg depending on the map.
hello, sounds like you played vs a better player, your positioning was bad or 8-10 thors where an exageration, vikings is not a cost effective answer to mutas and it seems like a really risky build to go blindly. instead of making your ultimate goal going battlecruisers i think you should focus more on perfecting your thor/marine/marauder push.. 1. smoothen the build, work on your macro and scout more 2. have your ball on designated keybind but also make atleast one more keybind for your marines cause you will want them in the back of your army 3. when you move out, position a single unit a bit ahead to extend your vision and so you wont panic when the banelings come rolling 4. once outside your base, dont have your units moving while macroing rather stop at a choke, position your units quick, go back build supply depots, drop them mules and queue up new units 5. send scouts all over the map unless u know exactly where his army is or u may get flanked 6. when the shit hits the fan focus on your marines(hit the marine keybind instant stim, move back, a bit from ur ball but not too far, split them up as much as u can during the few seconds u have) until the baneling treat is over, thors and marauders can soak up the banelings np
thats all the help i can give you considering the information you gave me, good luck, dont forget to expand to your natural before midgame and practice hard!
Pls post replays. We wanna see them and then point out exactly your flaws.
Besides, have you watched pro replays? From what I have seen, you use marauder block and tank splash to pop banelings. If worse come to worst (Zerg did not a-move their banelings) load up marines into medivac and retreat, letting your tanks and marauders kill and tank banelings.
I still play the same way, but my opening has changed. Instead of 1-rax FE, I tend to play 1/1/1 (with 1-gas) then expand (2nd gas after expand).
To address your post a little, thor/helion/marine only soft counters muta/bane/ling. Thus, you can't expect an automatic victory; if they outnumber you by a lot, they are going to win anyways.
BCs are generally really bad vs Muta, their AtA is horrible - not sure why you lost to hydra though, they melt hydra's pretty quick unless they're outnumbered 2-3 to 1.
Just go tank marine medi every game. Work on your timings, your aggression, your micro and macro doing this build. It does not hard counter any zerg builds and without micro is very weak vs banelings. But just do this build a lot and you will improve in the medium/long run. Experimenting with thors, air units and other cheesy stuff is not gonna improve your results in the longer term.
On November 28 2010 19:46 Wunder wrote: BCs are generally really bad vs Muta, their AtA is horrible - not sure why you lost to hydra though, they melt hydra's pretty quick unless they're outnumbered 2-3 to 1.
That's not true. Just try it with a unit test map, BCs actually beat Mutalisks quite cost-effectively.
I just tested 12 Mutalisks (24 supply, 1200/1200 resources) against 3 BCs (18 supply, 1200/900 resources) using 3/3 upgrades (actually, the results with no upgrades are quite similar).
Yamato gun was not used, since you probably would save it up for bigger threats than the Mutalisks.
The result was 2 BCs remaining, with one being at ~85% and the other one being at ~50%. I focus-fired with the Mutalisks, but not with the BCs. The Mutalisk splash damage is not that great vs. BCs because of their high armor.
The real threat to BCs if the Zerg has spire tech are the Corruptors, which make quick work of BCs, and do not require any additional tech.
you might want to add several ravens to your group if you really intend to go bcs + save a scan or two if you engage terran for precasting yamatos ( so as to ensure you're always at 10 range when you cast on vikings and get PPDs to block vikings at moment of engagement so they do no damage for first few volleys )
bcs got sodomized after some patch that made them do 8 instead of 10 vs ground, so it's probably not good to use them anymore ( 32 dps from 40 dps )
otherwise... you're probably better off going tanks/rines vs a zerg though and take advantage of the terrain + spread out tanks + 1-3 thors and + two ebays and an armory
The real threat to BCs if the Zerg has spire tech are the Corruptors, which make quick work of BCs, and do not require any additional tech.
This.
I just tested 12 Mutalisks (24 supply, 1200/1200 resources) against 3 BCs (18 supply, 1200/900 resources) using 3/3 upgrades (actually, the results with no upgrades are quite similar).
I think 4 mutas kill 1 BC. so when a terran is BC rushing going mutas is the better choice.
I've borrowed and modified a 2-port banshee build, which with the extra gas from an expand allows for solid BC production. It may appeal.
(Game was Tarson V LoWeLy on scrap Station. Day 9 reviewed one of his games from the tourney, was on blistering sands but the execution wasn't as good in this game: http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4367178/)
Now I'm silver but this build has has worked tremendously for me. Since I've switched I've only lost to one zerg out of about a dozen games, I've knocked off several golds with it and have spent quite a bit of time refining things, although my execution is still improving.
I'll give a brief BO, let me know if you want more detail:
- Standard opening (Supply, rax, 1st gas and OC all normal) - Continual production of marines - Quick 2nd gas (just after the wall off to deny ground scout) - Bunker - Factory - As many helions as you can afford without interrupting your tech to banshee - 2 Starports, then 2 tech labs - 2 banshees at the same time
Things you will need after the banshees come out:
- 2 more banshees typically - I build an engineering bay as I push out and a turret in the mineral line. Mutas will catch your air heavy force out of position otherwise. - Switch to viking if mutas are teched to - Tech lab on the fac with blue flame - great for lings and hyrda - A command centre for your nat - And a fusion core (get yamato for corrupters if the game gets this far)
This build has been pretty strong against whatever has been thrown at me. After the 2 - 4 banshees I typically push out with what I have in my base, marine, helion, banshee and viking. BC's come out shortly after.
I can post replays if you want, but given that I'm silver, my macro deficiencies are pretty obvious, build is still pretty down pat though.
The more BCs the stronger they will be. When you have 10-12 and have decent APM you can take out many Corruptors with Yamato Cannon before they can do anything.
On November 28 2010 22:27 Freezard wrote: The more BCs the stronger they will be. When you have 10-12 and have decent APM you can take out many Corruptors with Yamato Cannon before they can do anything.
Thats exactly the oppsite of the truth. BC are awfull vs corrupters and get worse because corrupters can ff. Mass terran Air is just a cheesy strat.
mutas have a massive speed advantage over BC, despite the huge disadvantage in range and the near immunity to mutalisk bounce (although on the other end, muta armor makes a HUGE dent in the very low damage BC attack)
it is questionable to assume that simply because 3 BCs are cheaper (gaswise at least) than 12 mutas that a zerg will try to engage 1/3+ number of BCs with a small number of mutas, both tech and production inequities are hugely important and can't be ignored either
Battlecruiser are indeed good against mutalisks, in a direct confrontation. The problem is battlecruisers are awfully slow, so as soon as you leave your base with them, the Zerg player will simply harass you to death with his muta ball. Also, as somebody else pointed out, the Zerg player can change to corruptors very fast.
A very promissing way to deal with mutalisks I've seen in a pro game a very few days ago (for the life of me, I can't remember who it was) involved the Terran player going marines + vikings for his AA. Marines remain the main damage dealers here (vikings, as we all know are cost ineffective against mutas), vikings just stay on top of the marines (in that game I saw, they're hotkeyed in the same group). The job of the vikings is primarily to extend the range of the marines. Mutas thus have a much harder time sniping stray marines, tanks or medivacs. The mutas obviously have a hard time attacking the vikings themselves, since they're protected by the marines. So it's basically like the thors + marines combo, only quite better, for a couple of reasons: 1) Vikings don't take ground space, your marine balls is thus much more mobile, and can kite the banelings more easily. 2) If you're losing the battle, vikings can retreat much more easily than a thor can, being slow and easily surroundable. 3) If the Zerg player throws all his banelings at you and you come on top, you can be more aggressive with you're marines + vikings balls, because vikings are faster than thors. 4) If the Zerg player throws all his mutas at you and you come on top with some vikings remaining, you can go overlord hunting with those. 5) Vikings grant vision (up cliffs/for tank vision), although medivacs do the same. 6) Vikings also take less gas, so you have more for your tank and medivac production.
On November 28 2010 22:27 Freezard wrote: The more BCs the stronger they will be. When you have 10-12 and have decent APM you can take out many Corruptors with Yamato Cannon before they can do anything.
Thats exactly the oppsite of the truth. BC are awfull vs corrupters and get worse because corrupters can ff. Mass terran Air is just a cheesy strat.
When you bring many SCVs to repair BCs are really hard to kill... but BCs are useless in 1v1 don't even bother. Try the same strategy in team games where your opponents can't just go pure Corruptors/Vikings instead.
I just tested 12 Mutalisks (24 supply, 1200/1200 resources) against 3 BCs (18 supply, 1200/900 resources) using 3/3 upgrades (actually, the results with no upgrades are quite similar).
I think 4 mutas kill 1 BC. so when a terran is BC rushing going mutas is the better choice.
3 Corruptors > 1 BC (with yamato BC wins) 5 Corruptors > 2 BCs (with yamato BCs win) When the numbers become larger it becomes more difficult for Yamato to help out
On November 28 2010 19:24 Hemling wrote: hello, sounds like you played vs a better player, your positioning was bad or 8-10 thors where an exageration, vikings is not a cost effective answer to mutas and it seems like a really risky build to go blindly.
battlecruisers need marines or vikings to beat other air units... just because they're so slow to build you should never have a chance to make a bc army comparable in cost to your opponents army.
if you have 4-5 battlecruisers, the zerg should already have 20+ mutalisks which destroy you.
ravens could help render mutalisks useless for the first 2-3 seconds and you should have rines/tanks to help out you can bring scvs for bunkers/turrets/auto repair and camp outside hydras wouldn't really do much with the tanks under
wouldn't it be better if you had ground army instead before you do some sort of transition into what you have in the OP? that'd be safer
EPT
