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Can someone please watch this replay and break some things down for me? I dont know how I could have played this game differently to win in the circumstance I was in.
everything was fine up until around the point where he went into collosus tech. (i kno that I didnt scout the robo tech directly but I knew that was the only thing he could do combat my army, so I went spire/corrupter
Where the problem MAY have come into play is that he went DOUBLE robo bay and I didnt scout it. From when i saw my first glimpse of collosus (there were 2) i massed corrutper since then. When we engaged i had about 8-9 against his 4 collosus.
The player I went against said that I should have gone muta when i scouted the double robo bay. Is that the only reason I lost? When his 2nd robo bay went up, should I have went mass muta instead, if all my income from that moment on went into mass muta?
Our income on 2-base was the same, i had 2 more hatcheries up that I was about to start saturating when the attack came, so if I fended the attack off I won, i kno that, but can someone please help me on what I could have changed slightly to make that battle fall in my favor (the engagement wasnt at the best place either)
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=169203
if the first link doesnt work: http://replayfu.com/r/w2Hbnr
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Downloading and watching. Will edit this post.
EDIT: Nvm, gamereplays isn't working for me (and hasn't been working for the past few days). Any chance you could upload them to another site?
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its the onyl site i have an account with
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Mass muta may have been superior as your opponent suggested since a double robo won't have as many stalkers, and the mutas will be able to clean up what's left after dealing with the collosus, though I guess it depends on how quickly he got the double robo, and how much of a ground force he had along with his collosus.
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I also could not download the replay. If you don't want to go through making an account you could use replayfu.com. Very simple interface. If the gamereplays.org website comes back up or you post on a different replay site, then we can critique your replay.
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On November 27 2010 15:12 mattzago wrote:
I also could not download the replay. If you don't want to go through making an account you could use replayfu.com. Very simple interface. If the gamereplays.org website comes back up or you post on a different replay site, then we can critique your replay.
I had a similar post in mind, but with much more BM, so I'll just quote this one.
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On the micro side of things, Your positioning was bad. You were in a choke and your corruptors were directly over the group of stalkers, your roaches werent concaved BECAUSE of the choke and a lot of them werent in range. Half your hydras were just chillin. Also at that point in the game i think you shouldve had more upgrades.
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I feel like in your replay's climatic battle you should not have tried to flank the colossus with your corruptors, the reason is that the battlefield was rather narrow and your opponent had a lot of stalkers at the back who would not have been able to hit anything, but because you flew the corruptors in from the side, they could focus fire your corruptors down while the stalkers at the front could attack your army and it made the engagement much more efficient for the protoss than it should and that worked against you.
A head on approach where the corruptors are flying in with your army should be more effective in your situation because the protoss stalker army would be less efficient due to stalkers clogged at the back, which means they have to decide to either focus your corruptors or your ground army (or A move). I feel that the corruptors are so bulky that if they are with your army (as opposed to flanking the toss and being away from your army) it could actually be beneficial to your ground army if he does decide to focus fire on the corruptors, as your corruptors can probably kill 2-3 colossus and your ground army would be relatively unhurt and doing significant army to the protoss army.
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Updated the OP with the backup link
so do you guys think with the army vs army, i could have won with better positioning? Also I dont agree with the muta, becuase going muta as a response to 1 robo bay isnt mandatory, but by the time he placed 2 robo bay, i have a hard time agreeing that if i dedicated all my income to mutas that I would win that, I think the corrupters should have been fine but maybe scouted it earlier and started the spire sooner, choose better place to engage, 4th hatch nearby instead of random expo for faster reinforcements?
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In that game the Protoss was very passive and was playing for econ. You were a even and then a little behind on workers for a while at the start. While the Protoss was quite passive you could gained much better map control. You did not do a lot with your overlords and you had no sight of any of the expo's on the map, Protoss could have expanded and you wouldn't have known.
Getting the towers plus having some ling spotters on the map giving you much better vision would have allowed you to position your army to engage the Protoss army better, in the final battle the Protoss army stepped out of the shroud at your front door.
Another thing to consider is trying to engage the Protoss force as far down the map as possible, giving you the most time to re-create your force and chip away at the collosi with your corruptors as they walk down the map.
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Elum, thanks for the reply, do you think that if i had a better engagement, with same army size, that I would have won that battle? if i won that battle im near positive I won that game
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The battle wasn't really what lost you the game. If you positioned your units right, they would have still all died. The key is where your units die, and how much ecconomy you have to replace them.
A couple of things to consider
- No zerglings to run into his mineral line as he moves out
- Didn't use third base until 15 minutes into game.
Remember, you are Zerg, be greedy get lots of expansions.
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I play terran, but i think if you opponent plays that passive you should grap earlier and more upgrades.
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grab excuse me, its early in the morning
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When the two armies engaged, corruptors just died.... it looked like you just A-moved them right into the stalkers, then roaches attacked, and hydras were just chilling in the back enjoying the nice creep spread, and by the time hydras realized the attack was coming it was too too late and the terrible terrible damage was already done.
GG
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I think it's pretty safe to say the hydras not engaging until far too late meant that your force was half the size. There was the opportunity to form a good concave through that choke (while the protoss was shooting the corruptors but before the FF went down) as the creep would've given you vision of the entire protoss ball but the protoss wouldn't have been able to shoot the hydras in the back. I don't see why the hydras were not in the same control group at the roaches. You still could've had them in their own control group as well.
To be honest, I think the fact the corruptors engaged over the stalkers was a good thing. It meant that over half the stalkers weren't shooting at the zerg ground army. Corruptors are fantastic tanks as air attacking units will priortise them over the ground forces. And collosi without meat shields die pretty quick.
You had burrow researched, but forgot to use it? It happens to me too. Especially if I don't usually have burrow as part of my bulid. Using them on roaches just to regen while reinforcements came would've been good. Or just as burrow micro. Personally I like to reinforce with roaches as a "go-to" unit over zerglings. They only take 3 more seconds that a pair of lings to morph and, so late in the game with upgrades, are far superior. But note that at that attack you had 1800 minerals to about 200 gas. Could've had some of those minerals as an inbase hatch +queen to increase larva and had a big ball of lings roaming the field prior to the fight. Imagine what would've happened if, as the protoss moved up the map, you streamed about 30 lings into the protoss base. Would've bought you more time to make roaches/hydras or position better. Also would've been a good flanking unit for during that fight.
If your hydras were engaged in that fight it would've been in your favour. You would've lost everything, but the reinforcements would've been out to fight a very small protoss army. Then with your 4 bases to his 2 = gg.
All those other comments about harassing with a zergling run-bys during the course of the game are also good things to consider. Especially on this map with the bushes to the side of the natural. Your main had become suboptimal once mineral patches were depleted and a transfer of drones should've happened earlier to maintain resource collection rates. Not a major issue though, but just something to improve. Spotter overlords along that back edge would've stopped that zealot warp in. Consider putting a 2nd evo down to speed up your upgrades. The protoss was +2 attack when you had +1 with armour on the way.
Creep spread. You had it going but the protoss killed a few tumors. Go replace them. At diamond 2k+ I'm sure you have some apm to spare.
Sorry if this sounds like a lot of nit-picking but hey! You're 2k+ diamond, it's the little things that make the difference.
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I noticed a few things watching your replay. First, you didn't take your third until around 100 food. Why'd you take such a late expansion? There really isn't a reason not to. Also, you consistently have lots of minerals piled up and a lot of larva. Make drones. Make another hatchery to make more drones. Drones, drones, drones. You want more drones than your opponent at all times. I'm paused at 11:50 and the P is up 5 workers. That should NEVER be the case. You never want to be below him in worker count, or even on par. You need to be ahead, and as a zerg player it's easy to do so. Just expand, make drones. Your unit composition takes a backseat to your macro. At 15:57 you have 9 more workers, but it's too late. You could've had 58 drones at 11:50. Hell, probably more.
What you should be doing is checking his front to see his units. Always. Then, check if you can handle those units with the units you have. If you can, make drones. If you can't, drop 2 spine crawlers and make some lings. Then make drones. Had you been making drones, you would've easily won this game purely by swarming him with lings and mutas.
In zvp, I personally favor mutaling. It's a lot easier to work with than roach/hydra. Being able to harass with mutas is something that protoss players and terran players both fear. There's no reason not to use them. Mutaling also isn't as scared of colossi as roach/hydra are. I believe that if you went mutaling and your macro was on point you could've simply a-moved your way to victory.
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The problem I have with muta ling is just how easy a group of longs can be negated by FF and zealots. I prefer roach hydra. I appreciate all the tips here I think they are all minor adjustments that would have made the difference in the end. This is one of the only situations that I consistently have problems with in this game are these deadly collosus timing pushes.
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Hi Unfurl, I'm HardCorey and ive just started trying to do a video series of answering questions on various threads that provide replays. I took a look at your replay and I just uploaded the video. I talked about how to best use Hydralisks when they're so fragile and a little bit about balancing your money (min/gas ratio). My sound stopped working at the end of my first recording so I did 2 parts.
(part 1) -- (part 2)
My Main Thread
Hope this helps,
-HardCorey
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For me the worst thing that can happen after I put down double robo is mass mutas
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Didn't read the rest, but some of your problems
1) You're being BM mate, say gg if you lost
2)You're losing in worker count to a 2 base'd player on 3 bases. Pick up your drone production so you can really out muscle him.
3) Poor map control while he's building up his colossus ball. He could have easily thrown down a proxy stargate, or a hidden 3rd and you'd have been in trouble.
4) You're not spending your money. By the end you had something like 1800 minerals floating, and it was around 1-1.2k all game
5) Don't engage the collosus ball off creep (as the first exchange was). You're just sacking units you didnt need to for no real gain.
6) For a long time he's just building up his colossus ball, completely leaving you alone (while you had a spire up). You should use this time to do some harassment to keep him from completely being able to do what he wants, throw 5-6 mutas at the north of his base and I assure you, you could have taken out at the very least 1-2 pylons, or a decent amount of workers, which would have screwed him up allot and bought you more time. He might have even been afraid to leave his base as you could just swoop in with mutas and trash it.
7) Your army is WAY too small. You have a decent amount of corrupters at the end, but he has more than collosi mate, in each exchange you were 2 and 3 units total behind him in army, and he had colossus both times.
In short, you're thinking way too far into counters. In your logic, If he has colossus, the correct response is corrupters. The real response should be something like "well, he's planning to attack soonish with a collosus ball, but he's sinking allot of resources into those colossus, so why don't I just get allot more shit than he can deal with?" You had the money, and time to get out a lot of roaches, upgrade carapace, and then you could have pretty much trashed that colossus ball, but you were worried about what countered those collosus, and frankly, that's poisonous thinking. Sure, a few corrupters would definitely help out in that push, but making that many with so small a real army is just asking for trouble.
Good luck in your future endeavors.
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Hmm Unfurl... Seems like what I told you back on the other site IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS WHAT THESE GUYS ARE STATING...
I'm serious dude just because someone is not the same level or slightly lower or way higher doesn't make them not a plausible source of info...
Yes I could of griped on your army position and where it was and what it consisted of, but really your army was just bad, poorly positioned and you could of microed way better and been way more prepared. What is most important is that your drone count was low (it got higher but way too late those larva should of been spent in better ways) your tech choices were ill used and really just poor map control. In every game I play against zerg, if he has map control I will almost always lose, not unless of course he goes mass banelings and I just tank them with thors and marauders. If I can gain map control a zerg just suddenly loses everything, if I have map control I can take out whatever expo I want in whatever manner I want because I can easily retreat back to my huge army with little to no losses compared to the zergs.
Anyone who understands this game in the slightest will agree.
Macro is more important than micro, and how you get to your units is far superior than having those units. Just because you have 2 corruptors didn't make it better than having 20 lings run into his mineral line and 5 mutalisk hitting him from 3 different sides, btw it only takes a few zerglings to kill a stalker, so in a grand scheme, if he warps in zealotsa t his base you can just run away and reinforce your army. Lings are fucking fast, and you should of had more creep so you could go hepl your army faster. But the lack of lings means you couldn't harass at all.
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EPT
