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Rexyrex the key is "scouting" and having a ally that isn't braindead, there are also a few situations... such as spotting it.. if you see the toss has tons of chronoboost saved and he has a zerg ally you can predict hes likely to do it,
1) Scout for the pylon thats going to be warping in / overlord... if you dont have ranged units you could have a problem
2) Correct units.. banelings to deal with the lings and marines to deal with the zealots ..
3) A NON-retarded partner.. aka someone who will tank the zealots.. you have to MAKE SURE THAT... the lings dont get in while your taking care of the zealots..
4) On maps without a shared base it can be very difficult.. because its such a powerful earlygame preassure.. the ally who isn't getting raped really has to play well and keep his eco up and tech.
5) if you have a toss partner that is playing 100% standard you this preassure can really screw you up due to toss having less units at the start it feels like.
5) If you are against any PZ i always just use my overlords as defensive to spot for these exact pylons
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i find these easy to stop if i am not playing 2v2 r lol. so yeah having a competent partner helps. itsalmost a free win sometimes.
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Hi,
I am Soyaki and I am a platinum 1v1 player. My APM is very low. I understand concepts in Starcraft (2) and my micro can be good but I'm bad at multitasking and my macro will fail long term. My friend fax is better, he 1v1s diamond but is not particularly great either.
This last month we decided to try this strategy in 2v2 and it has propelled us to the top 10 in North America when we previously were only mid-to-high platinum. We used this strategy in every game (even when we were playing the same team twice in a row.)
Here is a link to our team on sc2ranks: http://sc2ranks.com/team/3839656
But here is the graph copied over for viewing pleasure of our 'rise to the top'
![[image loading]](http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/1031/88673986.jpg)
I know I'm not good and I tried to make that clear but I wanted to post in this thread to lend some (more) credit to the 5 warp gate/speedling build.
Roaches have given us the most trouble all along. A well-designed terran base with a bunker will keep that terran alive and well though in most cases we then crushed his teammate.
We're currently #7 in North America with 2505 points in Diamond and I think we've pretty much peaked.
Thanks for laying it out for us Geiko 
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This build is also very strong in 3vs3!
We play it with 2 Zerg + 1Toss. Its alot easier to hold off early aggresion with 2 teammates instead of 1. Also it`s easier to protect the Proxy-pylons / VIP-probe :-). But the weak Point here is, that if you waste too much time on the first attack, the enemy team gets a big economical advantage. It could get really hard to finish off the last two teammates. With this build time is your biggest enemy so dont waste to much of it :-) But even with this Problem we still win 8 of 10 games.
Some people call this strategy an abuse but thats not true. Its just an strong strategy that alows you to bypass that supid wallins you se every game.... I think terra/toss needs to learn now how to deal with early aggresions. No more chill behind a wallin!!!!!
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Well I tried this strat out and must say that it really is as crazy good as everyone says. I must say that I really hate just copying strats so me and my friend decided to make this our own. Instead we are using TP and spotting the high ground using ether orbital command or a reaper. Still working out the kinks but I'll post a replay when we get it down.
@Geiko : Thanks for the new strat, I love these strats that are not normal.
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Counter: scout and veto separate base 2v2 maps.
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@teh leet newb
It really doesn't look that unusual until you see the toss saving energy on his nexus. At that point it's hard to scout that because the lings are out.
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i havent seen this strat in 2v2 games for a while now. its actually somewhat easy to stop if you and your teammate are on same page.
i think its just part of the 2v2 evolution thats all. teams just have to find builds that ultimately counter 2v2 cheese strats likes these.
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I faced it yesterday and actually lost to it :D
Even though my ally was kinda noob...
A quick fix to beat the strat if the protoss decides to place his pylon somewhat far away from the cliff is to just build stuff at where he can warp in. I built two pylons and he couldn't warp more then 1 or 2 zealots in at a time who got demolished by my own 3 zealots.
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I faced this yesterday aswel and got rather owned badly by it... a couple of times.
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Geiko, earlier in the thread (at the end of November) you said that the 2v2 metagame was heading to long macro games. Is that still the case? What are the best strategies now (apart from this one of course)? Who are the top players with real skill? Thanks in advance.
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On January 20 2011 10:18 searcher wrote:
Geiko, earlier in the thread (at the end of November) you said that the 2v2 metagame was heading to long macro games. Is that still the case? What are the best strategies now (apart from this one of course)? Who are the top players with real skill? Thanks in advance.
like in 1v1 eventually teams are going to hvae to incorporate their builds to take a cheesy build like this into account.
that creates standard builds. unfortunately only the top teams have standard builds and without the abudance of replays i dont think most teams are willing to let people see their builds.
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I feel like a terran going for fast reactor hellion would counter this, as well as zerg doing a baling plus spine crawler build. Fast reactor hellions should be standard against a zerg opponent 2v2.
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On January 20 2011 10:18 searcher wrote:
Geiko, earlier in the thread (at the end of November) you said that the 2v2 metagame was heading to long macro games. Is that still the case? What are the best strategies now (apart from this one of course)? Who are the top players with real skill? Thanks in advance.
Basicaly what phanemkin said, the top players in the world right now are those who effectively counter cheese and engage in long macro games. This takes a little while longer than for 1v1 to even out because of all the possibilities for advanced cheese in 2v2. Also because the best overall players are playing 1v1 (where the money is at :D).
I don't really follow the 2v2 scene that close, but if you want names, I believe Cubert and Aristeo are still owning all the major tournaments (and these guys open with standard openings in regard to 1v1)
@Spiderwafle : Basicaly, from my experience in separate base maps, nothing "counters" this strat (other than faster aggression). By "nothing counters" i mean, one player is going to lose his base if you do this right and commit to the attack. However as you said, a baneling spine crawler zerg will take out most of the two army before going down. Therefor his ally has the possibility to counter and do severe dammage in return.
However, i'm not sure about the hellion counter... Hellions take ages to kill zealots and he can stick 2 zealots to your helions and 3 in you mineral line.
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On January 20 2011 18:59 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 10:18 searcher wrote:
Geiko, earlier in the thread (at the end of November) you said that the 2v2 metagame was heading to long macro games. Is that still the case? What are the best strategies now (apart from this one of course)? Who are the top players with real skill? Thanks in advance. Basicaly what phanemkin said, the top players in the world right now are those who effectively counter cheese and engage in long macro games. This takes a little while longer than for 1v1 to even out because of all the possibilities for advanced cheese in 2v2. Also because the best overall players are playing 1v1 (where the money is at :D). I don't really follow the 2v2 scene that close, but if you want names, I believe Cubert and Aristeo are still owning all the major tournaments (and these guys open with standard openings in regard to 1v1) @Spiderwafle : Basicaly, from my experience in separate base maps, nothing "counters" this strat (other than faster aggression). By "nothing counters" i mean, one player is going to lose his base if you do this right and commit to the attack. However as you said, a baneling spine crawler zerg will take out most of the two army before going down. Therefor his ally has the possibility to counter and do severe dammage in return. However, i'm not sure about the hellion counter... Hellions take ages to kill zealots and he can stick 2 zealots to your helions and 3 in you mineral line.
Two things. firstly, I lost to this today. secondly, I haven't seen this been used in abundance lately.
I have two top teams. PZ and ZZ. my zz partner is from honduras and discs a lot. I have no doubt we'd be near the top if he didn't dc all the time. my pz team is top 50 material. we are currently rated 75th in NA. we still have too many bonus points.
anyways, with zz this is easy to stop. however, pz is harder. I will sorta elaborate on how we deal with this.
there are two things the zerg has to do and that is efficient overlord pathing. spotting this will help the zealot who is making gates as well, to just keep making zealots when you see it. you will know because at those certain cliff locations the zerglings will even get there to protect warping pylon. when this happens, the protoss needs to make constant zealots. meanwhile i tend to do 1 gas roach. if i see this i build around 2-3 sunks and use my roaches to stop it with my partner reinforcing me. if they attack the protoss, I have my roaches aid him with the sunks preventing a zergling runby. stopping the initial push makes everything there from downhill for the opponent.
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it is not unbeatable at all. played it 4 times with my mate vs only diamond teams and we lost 2 times. when they scout they see an early push comming for sure. so this is what they do: Block their ramp so that the zerg player cant get into the base. and they just build tons of units. no big deal... If someone's interested in replays how to beat this just contact me
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If you only practised it 4 times, you're probably not doing it right. Hell i've done it hundreds of time and i still screw up from time to time
Are you warping in at 5:15 ?
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@Geiko: thanks for the very clear, well-written, no bragging strat. It sounds excellent and I'll certainly try it in the future.
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We are warping in at around 5:15 - 5:30. One match we played against top diamond team, they played as T and Z. They scouted our build (and assumed correctly that we were going for an extremly fast push) so thats what they did:
Terran: Wallin + 1 bunker and tons of marines, no gas, no nothing. just marines. No chance to get in there with zerglings.
Zerg: scouting with overlords and lings everywhere, going for super fast speedlings as well + 2 spines. no way to place a pylon near the zergs base (he scouted everything, thx to overlords and lings)- No way to run into the terrans base.
Other scenario against top T and P: They scouted, blocked their ramp with 2x2 buildings (takes zerglings like forever to kill it, and there were stalkers and marines firing at them). we attacked the toss, did quit some damage, but terran pushed out with 1000000 marines and killed everything. (Marines do a pretty decent job against zealots and lings if used correctly)
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@ peddaz55 : Against T and Z you want to attack Z first. I am fairly confident that nothing later than 10 pool will be able to make more zerglings than the BO i put in the OP for zerg. So if you can't protect the probe making the proxy pylon with your zerglings you are doing something wrong (either you don't use your lings to take map control enough, or you miss scouted the early pool from opponents). At the point where you warp in, you should have at least as many zerglings as the zerg + 5 zealots.
Against P and T, at 5:15 there is also no way that protoss has more than 6 zealots if he went for 13 gate. At most if he scouted, he will have double gated and chronoed zealots and will have approximately 5-6 zealots but no warp gate tech. He also has to use one of his zealots to wal in against zerg so that leaves him with 4-5 zealots to defend agaisnt your 5 and slower reinforcement than you.
Against T and T, this build is hard to pull off effectively and will not work at higher levels (bunkering up and range units > zealots )
If you post your replay i can tell you what you did wrong in more detail
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img262.imageshack.us/i/81564614.jpg/)
