Me and my 2v2 partner are pretty low-level players (gold, both) but have recently been kicking some major ass with this build!
Our timings are often several seconds off, and we lose occasionally due to this. We are not very skilled at scouting, and even if we see early aggression we don't know much about what to do and we we sometimes loose because of this. We don't really mind this at this point. As we don't want to enter top diamond just because of one strategy :b that would just be a hard way down once people learn to counter.
The problem right now is the transition. We pretty much always kills one enemy. But we're being matched with people so much beyond our skill level that a 2v1 scenario is often pretty scary as well.
What is a good transition for both Zerg and protoss after this? We have tried Stalker/Baneling, but not having much success.
Nothing special to be honest just another strong early push abusing race combo mechanics, seems to be the norm of 2v2 ladder. I usually play vs nothing but quick pushes like this and resource sharing strats, basically whoever is better at abusing he game wins.
On November 28 2010 08:09 uSnAmplified wrote: Nothing special to be honest just another strong early push abusing race combo mechanics, seems to be the norm of 2v2 ladder. I usually play vs nothing but quick pushes like this and resource sharing strats, basically whoever is better at abusing he game wins.
It is a powerful push but if you see it coming through scouting you can prepare accordingly. It's actually not hard to stop this from happening if you use overlords or workers to scout out the obvious proxy pylon positions. Every player that calls this strategy OP needs to evolve and learn how to counter it.
Trust me, this strategy is not a break in balance, its just the perfect counter to the standard build that people usually go for to give themselves a powerful midgame. Teams that plan on having early aggression have a good chance at shutting this strategy down, especially if they take out a overlord or pylon and supply lock the opponent. Never forget that every game is split into three different phases. Early game (which this proxy rush focuses on), mid game (where most standard builds focus on), and late game.
On November 28 2010 08:09 uSnAmplified wrote: Nothing special to be honest just another strong early push abusing race combo mechanics, seems to be the norm of 2v2 ladder. I usually play vs nothing but quick pushes like this and resource sharing strats, basically whoever is better at abusing he game wins.
It is a powerful push but if you see it coming through scouting you can prepare accordingly. It's actually not hard to stop this from happening if you use overlords or workers to scout out the obvious proxy pylon positions. Every player that calls this strategy OP needs to evolve and learn how to counter it.
Trust me, this strategy is not a break in balance, its just the perfect counter to the standard build that people usually go for to give themselves a powerful midgame. Teams that plan on having early aggression have a good chance at shutting this strategy down, especially if they take out a overlord or pylon and supply lock the opponent. Never forget that every game is split into three different phases. Early game (which this proxy rush focuses on), mid game (where most standard builds focus on), and late game.
I never said it was OP or that i couldn't stop it, don't know why you felt you needed to write such a long response to me saying it was just another quick push. And about breaking the balance, i didn't know team games were considered balanced in the first place.
as T or P, if u place ur buildings inside ur high area which would give sight to the most likely proxy pylon positions, u can simply shoot them down fast.
I almost lost today vs this strategy. thank go they didn't execute it perfectly (hit about a minute late) or transition well (kept making lots and a few stalkers later and just speedlings). after they only killed one of us, my partner was able to take them out
We have now played around with idea a bit more and we have a returning problem.
Roaches! They can kite the Zealots. If the Zerg player(s) can either keep my Zerglings away, or keep their numbers down I can't lock the roaches down for my partner.
Any suggestions on what we can do?
Example:
We also have this match. I believe we executed the build correctly, and our opponents both had timings later than 12 but we still "managed to lose". What went wrong? Here is the replay:
My 2v2 partner and I have been doing this too somewhat. He has changed his build a bit from what was stated on front page, but I can't specifically say what he has been doing. I had changed mine up a bit and it still works pretty well, we've won a majority of our games while doing this, and have even gotten this to work well in 3v3s with another friend.. First of all, I'll do 10 extractor 9 ol, and go to 12 pool, and get an evolution chamber sometime in the mix, i'll stop at 200 gas so i can get an attack upgrade as well as speed. Only problem is we've been getting my lings out at abit later then 4:40, it is a loss of time but the attack upgrade i think makes up for it.
Oh and for our 3v3 thing, the other guy is a terran and he does a banshee harass on the one base, while me and the protoss go attack another.
Why is everyone complaining "it isn't unbeatable"? Its obvious that there is absolutely no strategy that will ever be unbeatable. Think about the word unbeatable this way: This strategy will get u the best win ratio, and that win ratio cannot be beaten by any other strategy. I'm not sure whether the statement above is true, but this is a good strat, and ppl have to admit it. I have never seen a single 2v2 strat that wins with these freakishly high ratios be4.
Damn you lol.... now every team on-line doing this in 2v2. Not even fun anymore. It's almost impossible to counter... I mean it "can" be beat, but you gotta have the right races and know 100% positive that its coming. Even then, they take complete map control from you.
@Vaped : The 2v2 meta-game seems to be shifting towards long macro games as good players learn to fend off early pushes/ cheeses. If this strat forces early production buildings, it can be game changing (and not balance breaking of course)
@WXYZ : just had time to look at the second replay, i'll be looking into the first as well. From what i've seen, you seem to have gotten the build down pretty well. However, it wasn't perfect, 10 seconds late is a lot of time. However in my opinion your problems seem to be micro/strategic related. You choose to send your 5 zealots to chase down 2 stalkers while you could have sent 1 zealot for every stalker and the rest hitting the mineral line. Obviously stalkers/roaches can kite zealots for ever so you're not going to win i f you try to take out the army. On the zerg side, you really need to work on that baneling vs speedling micro :D. If you can't kill them, at least try to go around them to hit the workers. But before that, you have to pressure the zerg with your early speedlings (at a point in time, you have 20 zerglings and he has 6 or 8). Finally, you really need to veto out that map as it is horrible for this strat :p Zealots take forever to reach the workers...
Been trying out this strategy recently, and it really works O_O then again, our opponents usually don't respond correctly (if there is a correct response yet). We actually came across another team that did this exact build, but around 30 seconds slower. Teehee. Felt a little dirty doing this build though.
I'm a mid 800's diamond zerg, and one of my 2v2 partners is a mid 300's silver protoss.
On our first night of attempts at this build (and I say attempts because there were a lot of times he messed up his gate timings, and once where I forgot to overlord on 10 like a scrub) we went 8 and 1. The one we lost was where the protoss rushed DT's (he got out 1) then killed my ally's nexus (yes, with 1 DT). This is easily solved by a forge as soon as you see a Dark Shrine, followed by 1 cannon in your mineral line, and maybe a second at your gateways. We had totally gutted his base and killed every single probe by the time his 1 DT was out.
So aside from the one ridiculously dumb loss, and despite an afternoon of butchering the build from both sides, we did quite well.
On December 01 2010 18:58 Geiko wrote: Wow, very nice insight, thanks a lot for those answers. It's true reaperling is less common nowadays, but still can hurt quite a lot if it catches you offguard. I posted a 2v2 strategy some time ago, what would you say is the proper response ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170655
If I don't scout at 9 (which I do anyways) I am done. Otherwise, the 10 gate is a telltale sign of rush, and once I don't see the 2nd chrono it cements it. At this point, if we do not have a shared ramp (it's easy to block on shared ramp), then I go 3 gate, no chrono on warpgate, just chronoing my units. Complete wall off on my part. I will have enough units to stop a 5 warpgate by killing the first wave, and getting a gradual advantage until I have enough stalkers that it doesn't matter.
Similarly, terran ally fully walls off, and goes 4 barracks, putting tech lab on 4th barracks, making pure marine until then. We will get to the point where we can stop any warp in zealots of yours, and then kill the overlord which is giving vision (or at least forcing to screw off!). Actually against this earlier when I was around 2300 (now 2407), and we were a PP team.
Once we defeat the initial warp in, we do not push. We gather units - and I get 2nd gas for sentry, and then we expand, taking care to watch out for more overlord pylon shenanigans. I dislike pushing after defense unless you do not stop warping in zealots, and I kill multiple waves, in which case I will push.
It's not really anything different than an unkilled pylon on Tarsonis Assault - which is imo the most dangerous map to play against this on, due to the ridiculously wide ramp, which you can dps very well against (as zerg).
So, in summary, full wall in so that whoever you attack, it is really a 1v1, with the zerglings being a nonissue.
Protoss should not die to 5 warpgate rush. Terran should not die to 5 warpgate rush.
And if your warpgate rush doesn't work, we're slightly up, though not won yet! Of course lots of various things can happen, and your build isn't bad by any means. Note that on Tempest, since there are 3 possible places for you to spawn, we actually do a double early scout so we can find you in time to prepare against any such rushes.
edit - working on the "average" maps now while watching GSL. Also noticed I left out Tempest in the map analysis.
Wow, thanks a lot, you're actually the first to give a detailed solution that seems to work ! I will have to try this. I wonder what would happen though if protoss didn't engage your army with the initial 5 zealots but instead ran around the base harassing probes etc... while the zerg bites off the wall in. When the second wave of 5 zealots comes, its 10 zealots (maybe 9 if you killed one) vs your army, and the wall in is almost broken. I'll see, enough derailing of this thread :D Once again thanks for the quality posts, it's nice to read someone who knows what he is doing
As for getting the wall broken down, that can be tricky, although I wonder if it's doable to defend the wall for a short period of time with a stalker while possessing enough units to hold your 5 gate, and basically stalling for time until my ally has a critical mass of marines and can just kill off all the lings with good micro. Might need to test this in a custom game ><. My ally in RT oftentimes botches the defense of this on his side, by not being prepared for even the zealots.
this could actually be nerfed by blizzard without affecting 1v1. simply make warping in units not possible unless the protoss player can independently see up the cliff, without the overlord. (i dont think this would take too much programming because in the replay it stores who can see what etc, although, perhaps it doesnt check individual players? only a team? i imagine it would do though)
that is, if people indeed think it is horrendously broken, i'm not fully convinced,
No matter what any of these people are saying, this build freaking dominates. We're playing up in the diamond league and we're only gold. This build took us from 9 wins 11 losses up to 58 wins 14 losses. The losses were a TT build, and once to a double 6-pool. (although we normally block the double 6-pool) But with all of that being said, this build actually works for quick rankings, but don't expect it to increase skill.
does anybody know a proper counter to this? I don't want to be lame and use this build but I also encounter this build very often. I lose to it every time T.T
-Blizzard for patch 1.1.2. Our build was already overpowered at release. But without the possibility of repearling, its just much more comfortable. Keep on balancing 2v2 blizzard !
EPT
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