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On November 24 2010 07:29 Conrose wrote:
Couldn't you essentially try a similar thing as TP with the Terran Player building a proxy rax, and float it into the base to bypass the wall off and provide sight for the Pylon?
Maybe with a mass marine timing push this could work to some extent ? I encourage you to try it out and tell us if you managed to pull it off consistently. However i doubt anything effective is going to come out of wasting a barracks and an scv just for the high ground vision... In my opinion, a scan is the better way to go. Scan at 5:15 to warp in zealots ?
Btw, updated the OP with a new replay against top 12 World, top 5 EU players. If anyone else has replays of them winning against top players, send them to me so i can add to the OP !
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-168302.jpg)
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Me and my buddy just did this right out of placement matches. I can first hand say that this BO is an omg deal. We went 9 wins in a row before finding an ok counter to this, i admit i could've done better on the macro/micro and probably won, but an early 5RR/7RR + marauders or fast zealots ganged up on one person really screws this up.
Overall, amazing build.
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Hey Geiko we won some other very good players from team aAa, ask me ingame or unhealthy if you want the replay.
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My 2v2 Partner and I are a TZ team (roughly 1500 points 2v2) and we have managed to figure out how to block this build on certain maps.
Suppose the map is Tarsonis Assault. Basically, I (Terran) will wall off the entire length of the shared choke while my partner (Zerg) will make speedlings and camp both of the warp-in locations. The idea is that the PZ zerg's speedlings can't get by my wall to support his ally, while the PZ Protoss can't safely warp in without being eaten by lings as they warp in.
Granted, this is really only possible on maps where it is possible to wall off a shared choke (Scorched Haven, Tarsonis Assault come to mind)
Replay:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-168654.jpg)
Although we didn't execute very well (lings not attacking nearby warping zealots and tons of scv lost stupidly), I think this shows our counter pretty well.
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Interesting defense strategy, however i am questionning whether the construction of all those buildings doesn't put you back to far in term of units ?
The build is actually pretty well executed from them, but for some reason, they don't warp in zealots at the 5:15 mark and wait for 5:40 or something which is a huge time ! They actually have the warpgate up at 5:12 = zealots in the zerg's base at 5:18. At that time, your spines aren't up and you have nothing to defend against 5 zealots !
This build is really all about the timing it hits. I would however be interested to see how your defense works out if the protoss manages to warp in at a correct timing.
But other than that, yes common choke maps are a pain. PT can wall in together and not be that far behind army wise.
By the way, the correct proxy placement on tarsonis is over the cliff on top left or bottom right. That way they don't even see the proxy without air vision 
Edit : Also, i would say even if their attack didn't kill you guys, it still worked pretty well : 17 dornes and 26 probes vs 9 scvs and 13 drones at 9 minutes ! So i'm not sure you can say you really countered the build
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In our defense, it was our first attempt at trying to block this strategy, and I was trying to explain to my partner over skype what my idea was. Unfortunately, I forgot to tell him to camp zerglings at where the zealots are supposed to warp in. At the 5:15 mark we have 16 zerglings, which means 8 zerglings per spawn point. I haven't done any testing on this, but I think 8 zerglings can kill 2-3 zealots as they warp in (since they take increased damage as they warp in).
Also, at 6:35 or so I just lose a ton of scvs for no reason, which could have been avoided easily
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Great build, thanks for posting this!
I have a question though, my friend and I play as TP and I'm curious if you can think of any way to modify this strategy to fit that makeup or if any one else has any ideas.
Thanks!
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On November 26 2010 05:06 Khadgars wrote:
Great build, thanks for posting this!
I have a question though, my friend and I play as TP and I'm curious if you can think of any way to modify this strategy to fit that makeup or if any one else has any ideas.
Thanks!
The problem is that as a TP team, you won't be able to have as much map control versus a team that has a Z
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Interesting. I think a good scout could counter this build, but of course you said that if needs be you'll transition into a normal game. I'm impressed.
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Yeah, TP is possible but i think not as effective. I suppose 2 racks into 4 racks openings could work to some extent . You'd also have to waste a scan as i said for high ground vision => less minerals and also no mobilty (you can only do it once at one base. Much more of a gamble and i'm not sure it would be effective at very high level. But yeah a key point is map controll in the begining and i fear that against 13 pool, you'd have trouble protecting the proxy probe...
@noobster : 8 zerglings can definitely NOT kill 5 zealots warping in (far from it also). Once they are warped in, you eather have to pull the other 8 back in order to defend (leaving the other base with nothing) or ask your terran ally to help out (leaving the center wall defendless).
I'm not saying it can't be done, but i'd really like to see your defense plan when the warp in time are correct.
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honestly guys this is an incredibly strong build, stop being fags and saying there are counters (what doesnt?) my partner and i were plat rank2 and after about 20 wins using only this became diamond r4. Just because someone is diamond doesnt mean they can make 7 marawders out of 1 rax at once
Our more intense matches were when the opponents were rushing as well. Not from scouting - a pregame plan from them meaning they had more units at their base. With warpgates and speedlings there is no defenders advantage and with both of us constantly reinforcing we rammed our e-penis own the throat of our opponents. Geiko this build is awesome, im wondering of there are similar synergies with different unit compositions?
to hell with the complainers
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I'm still confused, what happens if the other teams doesn't have a zerg and simply walls off their entrance or they have a shared entrance they can wall off?
It might be strong, but most rushes are, especially vs zerg.
Btw all your replays show games vs zerg enemies, except one where the protoss fails to keep the zerglings out (fail!)
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So, I randomly stumbled upon this thread earlier this night and I thought to myself, yeah, nah, this isnt hard to stop at all, especially since my ally and I are quite good at detecting and stopping cheeses, as well as having a really solid team play. Boy were we in for a treat.
We had about 160-20 before going into a random ladder fight (we're a PZ team, usually favouring macro style play. We don't usually cheese on the ladder, but mix it up every now and then in tournaments and stuff).
In this particular game, we were favoured, as usual (what's up with high diamond being matched against everything, including random bronze teams at night?  ), and were up against a PZ team. Scouted really early gas/pool/gateway and prepared like usual against an aggressive opener. Nothing happened for a little while, as I lost my scout, and then suddenly, after seeing toss pulling probes off gas, and 5 gateways, we were bamboozled to hell. Tried to pull off a fast dark, but that was definately not a good idea.
Well okay, we went over and looked at the BO, and realized, aha, this is the one from the thread I saw earlier tonight. Cool! Alright, let's go another game. And sure enough, we got our rematch. They did the same thing again, I went 5 gate as well, my zerg ally a bit more defensive, but again, got ran over. These guys didn't have proper micro. They didn't have a high rank / good stats. I don't think these guys were particularly good at all. So, after losing like 40-50 points, we entered a third match against these guys, and decided to defend like maniacs (we don't want to mirror the build, we want a safe way to defend against it, and still stay ahead eco-wise), but yet again, we got squashed. I even built a proxy pylon in my ally's base, to warp in if necessary there, but yeah, wasn't enough, even if I had 5 warpgates and a wall closed by a zealot (or two). Cause as soon as I warped in units at my ally's, there were zealots in my mineral line.
After a couple of other opponents, we met them a fourth time (now being teams even), on "high orbit". I tried to mix in a forge into the build, as we scouted the same build yet again, and forced the toss to continue gas production, going mass stalkers. We closed our main entrance with 2-3 cannons, and put up another 2-3 behind the rocks (as we assumed they had to do an all-in push through there). Sure enough, they took down the rocks, got trapped by some force fields (stalker, roach, lings), and had to fall back. We secured two expansions on the right side of the map, went muta/ling/blink stalkers, and eventually won due to better eco/tech.
So, here's kind of my conclusion. On certain maps (read: shared bases), it's definately going to be hard to pull this BO off as closing the entrance leaves the zerg unable to do anything until roaches are up, but then again, it's hard for the defenders to get proper scouting, and the aggressive players may even double expand fairly safe and catch up again without attacking. I am still clueless as how to counter this on maps where you are separated, like tarsonis assault, where you don't even need overlord scouting to warp in units. I do want to pull it off with 12 gate as a toss, where my ally zerg goes 14-gas, 14-pool. Hopefully, someone takes the time to investigate a bit more, cause I really don't want to be losing 3 out of 4 games against this build, regardless of how good the players are Don't underestimate this build guys! I don't doubt that good counteres will be found, but at the moment I don't think it's unreasonable to call it "OP", as it simplifies the game tremendously for the attacking part. I remember 8rax-7pool before the big patch being incredibly hard to stop, but it was possible :D Peace.
PS: Anyone wanna practice this build and try to find solid counters, give me a notice
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I faced this on the ladder today. sure kicked my ass. My and my buddy were better than our opponents in 1v1 easily, but this build is so easy to pull off that they crushed us.
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On November 22 2010 13:29 Impervious wrote:
I feel so dirty for trying it in a CSL match.
BUT IT WORKED!!!!!
You ass! My friend had this done against him in a csl match. You dont go to UOttawa do you? If you do then at least karma made your team lose overall. 1v1>>>2v2
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On November 26 2010 11:39 macrolisk wrote:honestly guys this is an incredibly strong build, stop being fags and saying there are counters (what doesnt?) my partner and i were plat rank2 and after about 20 wins using only this became diamond r4. Just because someone is diamond doesnt mean they can make 7 marawders out of 1 rax at once Our more intense matches were when the opponents were rushing as well. Not from scouting - a pregame plan from them meaning they had more units at their base. With warpgates and speedlings there is no defenders advantage and with both of us constantly reinforcing we rammed our e-penis own the throat of our opponents. Geiko this build is awesome, im wondering of there are similar synergies with different unit compositions? to hell with the complainers
You need to chill. It is in no way unbeatable and people are voicing their opinions, which is what a forum is for. Its a good strat, but like every other strat it can be countered. Get off the high horse.
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I'm quite still an horrible player, and my teammate is even much worse than me, still we are laddering with a huge winning streak with this build. From my experience I can say it's almost impossible to lose when your opponents are on two separate bases: they just can't wall in from the zerglings and so zealots are almost unstoppable in their first attack against a player who's alone. On the other hand, the other can't defend without getting stomped in the mineral line short after.
There are some maps were the bases aren't shared, where it's still possible to defend decently however, by making a wall which can cover both players. In these cases I've found that teching to blings, even if slower, is enough to make the lings get in and get the kill.
The only real trouble is the shared base, when both opponents smell the rush or are going with a rush on their own, and so they have appropriate defence, but otherwise, even with our poor skills, this is BO is indeed, even if not unbeatable, incredibly strong.
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On November 25 2010 11:04 nubster wrote:My 2v2 Partner and I are a TZ team (roughly 1500 points 2v2) and we have managed to figure out how to block this build on certain maps. Suppose the map is Tarsonis Assault. Basically, I (Terran) will wall off the entire length of the shared choke while my partner (Zerg) will make speedlings and camp both of the warp-in locations. The idea is that the PZ zerg's speedlings can't get by my wall to support his ally, while the PZ Protoss can't safely warp in without being eaten by lings as they warp in. Granted, this is really only possible on maps where it is possible to wall off a shared choke (Scorched Haven, Tarsonis Assault come to mind) Replay: Although we didn't execute very well (lings not attacking nearby warping zealots and tons of scv lost stupidly), I think this shows our counter pretty well.
im pretty sure we played you several times that day, right? (me/danbox and kensai)
unfortunately we're actually pretty bad players imo i havent really worked out what to transition to should my lings be blocked like that, and my partner committed to that attack way too much. the killing of the scvs was good, but he wanted to press the wall and thats when we lost it completely. if we both had 1v1 diamond lvl macro it mightve turned into an even game (as the guy above who watched the replay said, we were ahead in workers), but i think you guys had it easily just by having the massive wall- which wasnt scouted because we were getting lazy with the inflated win-rate this strat comes with D:
i would also like to point out that there were several games where banelings did a very large amount of damage... although you could probably put that down to horrible micro of lings on my part. something to consider though, as there were some close games where we took out one player, but the other went banelings and almost held off the push single handedly. again upper level micro 2v1 its probably not an issue, but something to consider if you're still looking for other defenses to this build
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On November 26 2010 14:35 Constituent wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 11:39 macrolisk wrote:honestly guys this is an incredibly strong build, stop being fags and saying there are counters (what doesnt?) my partner and i were plat rank2 and after about 20 wins using only this became diamond r4. Just because someone is diamond doesnt mean they can make 7 marawders out of 1 rax at once Our more intense matches were when the opponents were rushing as well. Not from scouting - a pregame plan from them meaning they had more units at their base. With warpgates and speedlings there is no defenders advantage and with both of us constantly reinforcing we rammed our e-penis own the throat of our opponents. Geiko this build is awesome, im wondering of there are similar synergies with different unit compositions? to hell with the complainers You need to chill. It is in no way unbeatable and people are voicing their opinions, which is what a forum is for. Its a good strat, but like every other strat it can be countered. Get off the high horse.
Again, i think no one is saying this strat is unbeatable, (i just put the word in the title because it's a pretty good eye catcher :p), but seriously, i am really wondering what a good counter for it would be, and still haven't found one yet (even after more than 30 000 views of this page). I'm going to quote myself :
I think a lot of you aren't reading my OP very well. I am questioning (notice the "?" in the title) whether or not this build is unbeatable with certain conditions.
Those conditions are :
-Separate base maps
-Anything but double T
-Opponents going at least 13gate, 13 pool, or one racks openings. (standard macro oriented openings)
I am very much aware that against any committed push before the 5 minute mark, this strat will not be effective. Those builds are easily scoutable, and this strategy's opening allows you to defend efficiently.
So seriously people, send me replays of you losing with this strat under these conditions, or winning against this strat.
In all the replays i've seen losing, the strat is very poorly executed with sloppy timings, bad early ling control and poor decision making. Even in some of the winning replays this is the case ! But that is understandable, it really takes some time to perfect the build. If anyone thinks they've found a counter, me and my partner will be happy to try it out with them with a decent execution of it (add me geiko.813).
Of course, don't post "counters" to this strat that imply like making 5 cannons in your mineral line because any decent player will just fast expand instead of pushing and be miles ahead of you in the late game.
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EPT
