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Without a good early-game, you'll lose the mid-game and late-game. Without a decent early-game, you won't even make it to mid-game.
Make sure you're scouting early & often, and responding appropriately to what you see.
forge-first:
+ Show Spoiler +
What you see:
pylon-forge
What it means:
Usually this means he will try to seal your ramp with pylons, with a cannon behind it. If successful, he will expand behind this and saturate both bases while you break out. Another thing to look for is a pylon just out of view of where your expansion is. You don't want 2 cannons to start shooting your expansion hatch just as it finishes building.
How you should respond:
The best way to deal with this is to prevent it. As soon as you see a forge-first build, you should send a drone to start patrolling your ramp. Go pool-first (I usually do 15pool 14extractor), so that you can deal with any cannon tricks near you base and/or ramp.
early zealot pressure:
+ Show Spoiler +
What you see:
pylon-gate-gate, no gas
What it means:
2gate zealots
How you should respond:
Get roach warren immediately. If you went hatch-first, make zerglings until your roach warren finishes, then make roaches. When your queen pops, inject immediately then move down to your expansion. If you went pool-first, you can get roaches a bit sooner.
early stalker pressure:
+ Show Spoiler +
What you see:
pylon-gate-gas-gate-core
What it means:
fast 2gate stalker pressure
How you should respond:
get 100 gas ASAP and get zergling speed. Pump zerglings. Pool-first is better here, since you'll get zergling speed quicker, but you won't be able to spot this build until after you decide whether to hatch-first or not. If you went hatch-first, you'll need to play defensive for longer. In that case, you'll want to make at least 1 spine crawler, to deter the 1-3 stalkers that are pressuring you. Use your 2nd queen to immediately lay a creep tumor at your nat, and use zerglings + 2 queens + spine crawler to hold off the stalkers until you get zergling speed.
cannon + zealots:
+ Show Spoiler +
What you see:
pylon-gate-forge
What it means:
pylon contain and/or cannons at your nat, but with zealots coming soon after
How you should respond:
The cannons will come a bit later than forge-first, but is still deadly because he will CB-rally zealots to your nat. Again as soon as you see forge, send a drone to patrol your ramp. Save up larvae so that you have 3 ready when the pool finishes. Don't make an extractor, or if you already made it, don't start gathering gas. Pump zerglings and use zerglings + drones to hold off the zealot/cannon until your queens arrive.
FE:
+ Show Spoiler +
What you see:
15 nex, pylon - gate - nexus
What it means:
These are FE builds. 15 nex is the fastest nexus you can get while making probes continuously, i.e. it's a super-econ build. gate then nexus is a bit delayed, but still an FE.
How you should respond:
You have two main options here:
pressure - get a few zerglings to kill scouting probe, expand, get 2nd queen. Make a roach warren, pump drones until the warren finishes. Stay on one gas, don't make lair, and mass speedling/roach. Use all your gas on roaches, the rest on speedlings. Attack when you have about 10 roaches. This usually hits a timing window before toss' extra gateways kick in, while he is still making probes and has few units.
macro - take a fast 3rd before lair, staying on 2 or even 1 geyser until you have a good # of drones at all 3 bases. At this point you're basically forgoing early-game and going straight into mid-game.
sentry-expand:
+ Show Spoiler +
What you see:
expand after core
What it means:
This usually means sentry-expand. On a maps with an easily defendable nat, this will be hard to punish like you would a FE build.
How you should respond:
Expand and drone up. 6-7 sentries backed by cannons are extremely tough to break. But those 6-7 sentries can't really pressure you or attack and deal any damage, freeing you to drone up hard. If you see him skimping on the sentries, and instead making stalker/zealot, you should punish with speedling/roach like you would a normal FE build.
standard:
+ Show Spoiler +
What you see:
pylon-gate-core
What it means:
standard build, i.e. it's impossible to tell at this point. He could be doing 3gate expand, 4gate, 3gate blink stalkers, 1base phoenix, fast void ray, etc.
How you should respond:
Just play standard, send lings up ramp, have an overlord sitting by his nat so you can see the second he starts his nexus, sac an overlord into his main if you can't tell what he's doing.
I'm open to additional suggestions, some of these openings have more than 1 proper response, this is what I do and what I've seen other high-level players do; just make sure you provide some high-level replays to support it.
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what about a forge FE? someone just did this to me and i wasnt sure what to do.
what i did do was take a third around 20, but things didnt go well from there. i defeated his 4-6 gate (not sure how many he had, too many cannons), but his second push with collosus ended it.
what do u do?
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As a 1900 protoss player, I would agree with all these responses.
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I personally feel that if a protoss fast expand i rather just power drones and take a third expansion instead while teching. It's important to always keep an eye on the opponents army so that you won't get suprised attacked.
It feels like a toss that fast expand should know how to defend properly and he will hopefully keep an eye at your army size aswell.
This is just my two coins, i rather stay safe and get a stable economy instead of taking an risk.
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All my attempts to punish 15 nex has failed pretty bad so far, maybe i fail or maybe it is not as simple to punish it. Ether way i feel mass drone pump + 3rd is better response at least for some people, roach ling all in is risky.
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United States8476 Posts
You should add something about stalker pressure that attempts to pylon off your choke a la kiwikaki. Kiwikaki does it with a gate core gate build, which pushes out with 1 zealot and 3 stalkers. However, it's also good from a gate gate core build that has 2 stalkers with 2 more en route.
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Im only high platinum, but if I scout twogate after I FE i like to just pump lings and drones. With 1-2 queens and lings I can micro and kill 2gate zealots pretty easily. Is this viable at higher levels or does it only work because im playing against people with poor mechanics?
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I feel like a fast spine crawler is a better defense while waiting for Ling speed against fast stalkers. I always cringe when he picks off free lings because every 2 lings could've been 1 drone. This allows me get a few extra drones in before I start the necessary lings to chase him away.
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I think you should expand the info on the last section (standard) . Imo, there is really no standard for playing Z because Z is a reactionary race. Because the standard toss build has so many different possibilities you can't get ready for all of them unless you get in good scouting with a sac ovie (this can be easily prevented by a patrolling stalker). I was thinking of looking at second gas timings for P in order to determine the build, but i haven't looked much into it. GJ on the rest though
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As a protoss player this sounds pretty spot on to me. Obviously the map/rush distances plays a big factor in the effectiveness of certain openings which increases/decreases the possibility of your opponent going for them.
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Hey this is a great thread and the way you laid it out in the OP is easy to browse through.
Can you make one of these threads for ZvT?
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I also think that your response to FE dont work at all. Its better to go for macro game. However fake roach pressure is strong because you force cannons and get time for third, mutas, nydus or whatever you want. I think that FE build is so strong and as long as toss can survive undamaged to the later game it is hard to stop.
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On November 17 2010 08:06 dobrzeee wrote:
I think that FE build is so strong and as long as toss can survive undamaged to the later game it is hard to stop.
agreed.
cannons are retarded strong against zerg t1, combined with ff it is near impossible to break through. the protoss death ball that results from the FE is extremely difficult for me to stop on 2 bases myself. mutas are instalose as i found out today.
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On November 17 2010 07:22 Vaporized wrote:
what about a forge FE? someone just did this to me and i wasnt sure what to do.
what i did do was take a third around 20, but things didnt go well from there. i defeated his 4-6 gate (not sure how many he had, too many cannons), but his second push with collosus ended it.
what do u do?
forge FE? As in, pylon - forge - nexus?
This is also an FE build and can be punished by ling/roach. However if it's a map with easily defendable nat, then 3+ cannons will make it extremely hard to break.
On maps with easily defendable nats, I think you should expand & drone up, and go for 2base lair, or get a fast 3rd, and go super macro mode.
On November 17 2010 07:26 west91 wrote:
I personally feel that if a protoss fast expand i rather just power drones and take a third expansion instead while teching. It's important to always keep an eye on the opponents army so that you won't get suprised attacked.
It feels like a toss that fast expand should know how to defend properly and he will hopefully keep an eye at your army size aswell.
This is just my two coins, i rather stay safe and get a stable economy instead of taking an risk.
On November 17 2010 07:37 Deathfairy wrote:
All my attempts to punish 15 nex has failed pretty bad so far, maybe i fail or maybe it is not as simple to punish it. Ether way i feel mass drone pump + 3rd is better response at least for some people, roach ling all in is risky.
yes i agree on a map with easily defendable nat, taking a fast 3rd is definitely a viable option.
On November 17 2010 07:54 ChickenLips wrote:
I feel like a fast spine crawler is a better defense while waiting for Ling speed against fast stalkers. I always cringe when he picks off free lings because every 2 lings could've been 1 drone. This allows me get a few extra drones in before I start the necessary lings to chase him away.
yes i agree, especially if you already went hatch-first, this is good since your zergling speed will be delayed for awhile. However depending on the map he can just ignore the crawler or walk around it (DQ, Xel'Naga, metal for example)
On November 17 2010 07:47 4kmonk wrote:
You should add something about stalker pressure that attempts to pylon off your choke a la kiwikaki. Kiwikaki does it with a gate core gate build, which pushes out with 1 zealot and 3 stalkers. However, it's also good from a gate gate core build that has 2 stalkers with 2 more en route.
got any replays of this I can see?
Also, can you explain how would zerg response of this differ from regular pressure?
On November 17 2010 07:54 SONofaGUN wrote:
I think you should expand the info on the last section (standard) . Imo, there is really no standard for playing Z because Z is a reactionary race. Because the standard toss build has so many different possibilities you can't get ready for all of them unless you get in good scouting with a sac ovie (this can be easily prevented by a patrolling stalker). I was thinking of looking at second gas timings for P in order to determine the build, but i haven't looked much into it. GJ on the rest though
After the gate-core opening, there is really a wide variety of builds that protoss can do. Responding to builds isn't really within the scope of this thread.
this thread is more about responding to specific early-game openings.
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On November 17 2010 08:22 BlasiuS wrote:
forge FE? As in, pylon - forge - nexus?
This is also an FE build and can be punished by ling/roach. However if it's a map with easily defendable nat, then 3+ cannons will make it extremely hard to break.
On maps with easily defendable nats, I think you should expand & drone up, and go for 2base lair, or get a fast 3rd, and go super macro mode.
thanks for the response. pylon-forge-nexus is what i was asking about.
would saturating both my main and nat and just pumping as many roach hydra as possible off this income be suffiecient to stop a 6 gate push (with spines obviously)? i feel like it would be, but I get stuck in the MUST BE 1 BASE AHEAD mentality sometimes.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 17 2010 07:47 4kmonk wrote:
You should add something about stalker pressure that attempts to pylon off your choke a la kiwikaki. Kiwikaki does it with a gate core gate build, which pushes out with 1 zealot and 3 stalkers. However, it's also good from a gate gate core build that has 2 stalkers with 2 more en route.
got any replays of this I can see?
Also, can you explain how would zerg response of this differ from regular pressure?
This is actually 2 separate issues. First is the kiwikaki opening which is the normal gate core but you cut probes at 20 supply to put up a 2nd gateway. This way, you can have the fastest 1 zealot/3 stalker possible to pressure with.
The other issue is pylon blocking the ramp while stalker pressuring. If the protoss gets a pylon block on the zerg ramp, it's pretty much goodbye expansion. Note that this only works if zerg gets a rather later expansion, because if it's up too long, creep will have spread to the ramp. This is more of a technique than an opening, but it's very deadly from either the gate core gate opening or the gate gate core opening. The best thing about the tactic is that it doesn't cost anything to attempt it. If you don't get the pylons up, then it's still a good pressure build. If you do, then you kill a free expansion.
The counter would just be to be careful, especially if you see a probe. Don't let him block your ramp before creep spread there.
For replays of this build/tactic, check out the kiwikaki replays from mlg dallas. I think he does it in almost every vs zerg game in that tournament. I believe TTOne and socke also tried this strategy in the same tournament after seeing kiwikaki perform it.
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The macro answer to 15 nex is FAR better most times. If I see Z make units on 2 bases instead, I view it as a semi all-in: I make a few more cannons, keep teching/making probes and enter mid game knowing I have a lead. It always makes me happy knowing mutas will be delayed too.
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half of them is what i used to do, and the other half sound pretty smart, i will try them out
thank you very much for the guide ! 
make one vs terran n vs zerg!
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wow such an awesome guide.
thanks man!
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Zergs should not assume a sentry-expand will come without pressure. I often push the moment I throw my Nexus down, and 7 sentries and a couple zeals/stalks with good FF micro can sometimes win the game.
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Hi. I'm 2100+ Zerg diamond player, and I wouldn't have any problem dealing with any sorts of the Protoss opening build that you mention above, but there is 1 build that I find it very difficult to deal with.
It is the protoss wall up to fast stargate and phoenix build, then into FE.
I think that this is the strongest build that the Protoss have against Zerg. And I have lose many games to this type of build
Those few pesky Phoenix will harrass and kill your ovies, queens, or maybe drones thereby significantly slowing u down, and shuttting down your scouting ability, thus creating a very big advantage for him going into the mid game.
Normally if you see this build coming, what would you do? Do you go into mass hydra, probably running into opponents trap, as he will be willingly go mass collusus to deal with your hydra
Or do you go muta? Thereby forcing opponent to build more phoenix and stalker.
Or do u go spore? Defending and macro up?
Or maybe make a few extra queens to kill those stray Phoenix that run into you base?
So, can any of the pros here tell me what to do if opponent go fast Phoenix.
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depends on the amount of phoenix, a couple of early phoenix and you should be fine with extra queens or spore, and continue macro.
when you see 5/6 phoenix, a baneling bust + tons of speedzergling is a great solution, because he will only have a few grounds units in his base and phoenix won't be able to pick them all up.
or fast tech to hydra and push but don't wait too long
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On November 17 2010 15:40 NoobAPM wrote:
Hi. I'm 2100+ Zerg diamond player, and I wouldn't have any problem dealing with any sorts of the Protoss opening build that you mention above, but there is 1 build that I find it very difficult to deal with.
It is the protoss wall up to fast stargate and phoenix build, then into FE.
I think that this is the strongest build that the Protoss have against Zerg. And I have lose many games to this type of build
Those few pesky Phoenix will harrass and kill your ovies, queens, or maybe drones thereby significantly slowing u down, and shuttting down your scouting ability, thus creating a very big advantage for him going into the mid game.
Normally if you see this build coming, what would you do? Do you go into mass hydra, probably running into opponents trap, as he will be willingly go mass collusus to deal with your hydra
Or do you go muta? Thereby forcing opponent to build more phoenix and stalker.
Or do u go spore? Defending and macro up?
Or maybe make a few extra queens to kill those stray Phoenix that run into you base?
So, can any of the pros here tell me what to do if opponent go fast Phoenix.
Scout Stargate.
Make continuous queens from your Hatcheries until you push.
Get a Roach Warren and a Spore in each mineral line if you can't handle the Phoenixes. Save up the larvae and ressources for a healthy roach force.
Go fucking kill him.
Everytime people lose to phoenixes is because they panick over the Phoenixes killing their ovies and queens. Just exploit his lack of ground DPS.
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after 15 nexxus, u can also do a baneling bust, at least if they don't have a very narrow choke. you just have to be careful not to stop droning too early.
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forge first means FFE more often than it means ramp block. you should still patrol the ramp, but if you go pool first you're going to have to go allin to win; as your opponent will out drone you with chronoboost and 6 gate up your ass.
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On November 17 2010 15:40 NoobAPM wrote:
Hi. I'm 2100+ Zerg diamond player, and I wouldn't have any problem dealing with any sorts of the Protoss opening build that you mention above, but there is 1 build that I find it very difficult to deal with.
It is the protoss wall up to fast stargate and phoenix build, then into FE.
I think that this is the strongest build that the Protoss have against Zerg. And I have lose many games to this type of build
Those few pesky Phoenix will harrass and kill your ovies, queens, or maybe drones thereby significantly slowing u down, and shuttting down your scouting ability, thus creating a very big advantage for him going into the mid game.
Normally if you see this build coming, what would you do? Do you go into mass hydra, probably running into opponents trap, as he will be willingly go mass collusus to deal with your hydra
Or do you go muta? Thereby forcing opponent to build more phoenix and stalker.
Or do u go spore? Defending and macro up?
Or maybe make a few extra queens to kill those stray Phoenix that run into you base?
So, can any of the pros here tell me what to do if opponent go fast Phoenix.
I'm rated a bit below you, and I don't face phoenixes that much, but I was watching an Artosis rep where he went hydra for a bit vs the phoenix opening. His opponent went for colossus naturally, but artosis had started 2 hidden spires (under a fuckton of OLs to hide them). He got mass muta + some corruptor. his opponent had halted phoenix production, and he won pretty easily with double upgraded air.
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On November 18 2010 05:23 friscosav wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 15:40 NoobAPM wrote:
Hi. I'm 2100+ Zerg diamond player, and I wouldn't have any problem dealing with any sorts of the Protoss opening build that you mention above, but there is 1 build that I find it very difficult to deal with.
It is the protoss wall up to fast stargate and phoenix build, then into FE.
I think that this is the strongest build that the Protoss have against Zerg. And I have lose many games to this type of build
Those few pesky Phoenix will harrass and kill your ovies, queens, or maybe drones thereby significantly slowing u down, and shuttting down your scouting ability, thus creating a very big advantage for him going into the mid game.
Normally if you see this build coming, what would you do? Do you go into mass hydra, probably running into opponents trap, as he will be willingly go mass collusus to deal with your hydra
Or do you go muta? Thereby forcing opponent to build more phoenix and stalker.
Or do u go spore? Defending and macro up?
Or maybe make a few extra queens to kill those stray Phoenix that run into you base?
So, can any of the pros here tell me what to do if opponent go fast Phoenix.
I'm rated a bit below you, and I don't face phoenixes that much, but I was watching an Artosis rep where he went hydra for a bit vs the phoenix opening. His opponent went for colossus naturally, but artosis had started 2 hidden spires (under a fuckton of OLs to hide them). He got mass muta + some corruptor. his opponent had halted phoenix production, and he won pretty easily with double upgraded air.
Saw another game of Artosis where he also did the same thing, and toss transitioned into massing ground units. Artosis' muta/corrupters took out all the pheonixes but lost all of them to stalkers, and got stomped.
I'd make some hydras and a few spores to defend and secretly mass roaches. After seeing hydras, toss ususally makes colossus or HT.
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I would add that you need to be aggressive with scouting after a 15 nexus. There are two common P followups that will fuck you up if you don't scout them.
2 stargate phoenix: you need to know its coming so you don't blindly make mutas into it. if you don't have an extra queen or two (or hydras) when the 4-5 phoenixes show up you can lose tons of overlords/drones. best response (in my opinion I don't play zerg) is get an evo for spores in the mineral line and extra queens. he will probably transition to collossus after so be wary of that and don't make too many hydras
6 gate timing: once his nat is up and he has warpgate researching he will add on a ton of gateways. if you drone pump too hard or try to take a third with too few units this can kill you. just be careful that you don't let this go unscouted and get caught offguard by a huge ball of units relatively early
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This is a win thread. Thanks for posting it.
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Extremely Helpful! I'm a rising zerg player (rocketed through silver and hit 1st in gold immediately after changing div's so probably gonna hit plat any second) and I was really struggling with a lot of timing pushes and their responses. I love aggressively scouting though.
At the lower levels i RARELY see a 15nex, much more commonly seeing 2-3-4gate/robo/stargate timing pushes, sometimes cannoned in (but in a cannon-1base i'm 90% sure it's just straight voidray tech.).
As a less practiced player i'm afraid to expand before pool, often because i will see 5 zealots or 2z's1stalker pushes right as my pool is finishing. Can anyone give me an idea of the timing is when you FE as Z? (in terms of what the absolute max P can have if Z early expands? Im often woefully unprepared for 1-2-3gate-core timing attacks, which are by far the most common at my level).
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If you wish to expand further you can talk about the late early game builds or the typical protoss openings from the fast expand and what to look for to scout them.
- Dark Templar
- 2 Starport Phoenix
- 6 WG (Cut probe) Push
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EPT
