EPT[D] What makes a map "Protoss Favored"?
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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FreedonNadd
Austria573 Posts
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FreedonNadd
Austria573 Posts
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Tropics
United Kingdom1132 Posts
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gwire
United States11 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:36 Tropics wrote: hard to defend thirds are terrible for protoss, protoss needs to stay as compact as possible because they have terrible mobility, and on maps like that protoss has a much harder time attacking (like scrap station, you attack the gold and you're just going to get countered and die) wouldnt that mean the 3rd is easy to defend? scrap station is not a map that has a hard to defend third....maybe the third itself is hard to defend I guess, but logically thinking no one is going to sac their main to kill a third, making scrap station an easy to defend third. I think he means maps like jungle basin....I'm a 1750 zerg and I can't seem to win on jungle basin against any competent macro-styled t/p on jungle basin 2 base zerg just isnt as potent as 2 base p/t in my opinion and thus with a wide open third you will need some great scouting/countering ability to hold a third for long | ||
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Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:36 Tropics wrote: Why do protoss have terrible mobility?hard to defend thirds are terrible for protoss, protoss needs to stay as compact as possible because they have terrible mobility, and on maps like that protoss has a much harder time attacking (like scrap station, you attack the gold and you're just going to get countered and die) They can re-enforce around the map, have the best drops et cetera. I'd say that protoss and zerg have the best mobility. Terran absolutely has the worst mobility, their units are very slow and they can't really control where they are spawned. Dropships are also pretty slow, and their flyers are also really slow. They have maybe two mobile units, hellions and reapers. But I'd say that a protoss favoured map is a map with a lot of cliffs, protoss units tend to make the most out of cliffs with stalkers, colossi and carriers, also, maps like Delta and Jungle Basin where they can easily place a proxy pylon and come from the back. I mean, if you do a drop on protoss they can just warp in some units at that point, Terran is the one that has to turn their entire army around to deal with it, and have those slow units added to that. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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TheGiz
Canada708 Posts
Also consider than Protoss generally hate large air spaces behind bases that permit things like Muta harass to run around freely. They do however love massive home bases where one can hide a probe behind a Doodad or deploy an Warp Prism without being seen. Think of the main bases on Shakuras Plateau for an example, or even Lost Temple. Another thing: Protoss HATE island bases. This is because Protoss air strength is really only good in the late late game, which gives opposing players plenty of time to set up a well-defended island that simply CAN'T be busted without a huge air force or Mothership bust. Final note: GAS, LOTS OF IT | ||
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Harbinger13
United States9 Posts
1) Close and easy to defend expos- protoss has a tough time securing expos early, and their army moves pretty slow 2) Narrow ramps and chokes- forcefields 3) Generally close starting positions- easy to attack for usually immobile protoss ball 4) A lot of cliffs- abusive collosus and blink stalker play | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
But here's some: Ramps exactly 1 forcefield wide. A natural expo that's far away from ramp, and thus hard defend with spine crawlers, but easily defended by cannons (like scrap station). Xel'Naga towers for spotting drops/mutas. Layout that favors blink stalkers/colossus, ie lots of hills and cliffs you can retreat to. Mains accessible by warp-in from an outside pylon. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
I'm not sure most zergs would consider a short rush distance a good thing against protoss though, as very early pressure is quite common. One thing you could look into is allowing some serious blink stalker abuse. Just my humble opinion as a random. Edit: Also, choke points instead of ramps a la Kulas Ravine can make it impossible to wall in for a terran (they seem to never wall in against protoss these days though...). | ||
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gwire
United States11 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:36 Tropics wrote: hard to defend thirds are terrible for protoss, protoss needs to stay as compact as possible because they have terrible mobility, and on maps like that protoss has a much harder time attacking (like scrap station, you attack the gold and you're just going to get countered and die) wouldnt that mean the 3rd is easy to defend? scrap station is not a map that has a hard to defend third....maybe the third itself is hard to defend I guess, but logically thinking no one is going to sac their main to kill a third, making scrap station an easy to defend third. I think he means maps like jungle basin....I'm a 1750 zerg and I can't seem to win on jungle basin against any competent macro-styled t/p on jungle basin 2 base zerg just isnt as potent as 2 base p/t in my opinion and thus with a wide open third you will need some great scouting/countering ability to hold a third for long | ||
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Samizdat
22 Posts
Behind the plants on Kulas That place in Delta Quadrant where a pylon at your front natural reaches to your backdoor natural The places on Tarsonis Assault where a pylon on the cliffs outside your base still reaches in Also, and base with a 3rd gas | ||
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Perscienter
957 Posts
Because of Terrans, a lot of cliffs and narrow spaces are a double-edged sword. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:32 Barrin wrote: Yo. About Me (feel free to skip this part): I'm a mid++ level diamond Random/Zerg player. I haven't played much in the past 2 months (Went 10-2 last set of games I played two weeks ago and went from 1000 to 1200 in a snap), but I was fairly hardcore in the beta and hit diamond within 25 games on release. When the top diamond player was 1600, I was 1000 (as random). I say I haven't played much, but that has a lot to do with how much time I've spent studying SC2. I've watched/studied hundreds of hours of high level streams/replays/etc. (Why the fuck would I do this? Because I'm a mapmaker, which is also the reason I'm making this map). My best race by far is zerg, and I am good at terran simply because they are very intuitive to me. But my protoss play is absolutely terrible. That is why I need your help. Why I need your help: No, I don't need your help to become a better player. What I need is you to help me understand what makes a map protoss favored. Two reasons: First, it simply helps me as a mapmaker to make more balanced maps; second, because I am trying to make a map that is utterly protoss favored. I have already made the layout for an utterly zerg favored map, something that took me far too long to do (I am not finishing the zerg favored map yet because they don't need it, but they did when I started working on it). BTW, I am making imbalanced maps on purpose simply as an exercise, because I feel it helps me become a better mapmaker. But I also think there's at least a handful of you who would totally enjoy having a map that can help you defeat one of your friends who you normally couldn't, especially since protoss has seen better days. What I already understand about protoss-favored maps: Protoss likes:
Ok maybe I know more than I give myself credit for... I already drew a map layout that incorporates all of these features, but I still need your help with more map features that help protoss more than they help the other races. Ideas? The only time protoss is favored at the start of a match is in PvP | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
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xseverityx
52 Posts
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Tropical Bob
United States127 Posts
But then, it could also hurt Protoss if there's a runby or drop, or something. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
If you are looking for inspiration for a Protoss-favored map, I would say start there. | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
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probu
Canada36 Posts
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lao
United States33 Posts
On November 17 2010 04:27 Skyro wrote: Extra geyers. most accurate post in the thread. mains start with 3 geysers = big favor for toss. the other thing is, almost anything that favors P in PvZ will favor T in PvT. anything that pertains to more easily defended bases to counter mutas or drops will just favor tanks and bunkers. anything that punishes zerg for trying to take extra bases will just favor drops and terran mobility. i think if you give a toss enough gas to get comfortably to templar or colossi off 2 bases (and thus to grab harder-to-defend 3rds) would be good. jungle basin with 3 geyers in the main and 3 in the natural would be the best thing i can think of. P.S. toss doesnt like cliffs. colossi walking up cliffs is dumb. when do you ever want to walk colossi out of range of your gateway units? blinking stalkers into an enemy base is also a gimmick, because you'd need an observer, and by that time, terran can tank drop you already. no thanks. cliffs benefit T in PvT way more than it does P in PvZ. | ||
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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huyNh
Canada366 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Also, limited air space around mineral lines. On maps like DQ, it's annoying that banshees get a safe highway around your base that you can't hit with stalkers. | ||
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Magic1264
United States60 Posts
On November 17 2010 04:18 Jayrod wrote: The only time protoss is favored at the start of a match is in PvP Actually, protoss isn't even favored in that match-up I love playing 4v4 as protoss, and I think its because the 4v4 maps have a lot of features that just let my protoss army feel "good." My most favorite map being Megalopolis; i think this is because it has extremely close 2nd and 3rd with no cliffs, yet are contained in very wide open spaces, so i can defend with large unit arcs. In addition, large open attack routes makes for easy interception of conga lines of units trying to move, limited, easily scoutable air space makes it hard to sneak in flying dts or mutas into the base, and lastly, the main is huge, allowing for probes to sneak in unnoticed. So, in summation, a large map with very limited air space, tightly clustered yet wide open 2nd and 3rd, and large bases all seem, in my opinion, to give the protoss a "leg up." | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
So for me, any map that doesn't tip heavily toward Zerg or Terran, will be a map to my favor. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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-{Cake}-
United States217 Posts
Terran always likes closed spaces, Zerg always likes open spaces, Toss likes open spaces against terran (short of needing a narrow choke to stay alive), but closed spaces against zerg I'd suggest maybe a closed off ring around a wide open middle besides that, having xel'nagas in the main to spot drops and mutas more quickly would be handy | ||
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
Short chasms to blink across. Lots of small ramps, esp in the center to abuse force field. Destructible rocks next to bases to help void ray charging. Lots of small locations where tech and pylons can be hidden. Low number of inaccessible cliffs to avoid drops from terran. Well placed watchtowers to deter terran drops. Tight nat but exposed third to help toss get to lategame where storm > everything. Ramp close to mineral line to help cannon abuse. Close positions to help allow for 2 gate pressure if needed but tight ramps to abuse forcefield. If you really want to make the map broken, though, place watchtowers in a position so that they can overlook the ramp and just inside the interior of the bases. This lets toss mega abuse stalker range and takes away the fact that they can't get an early high ground observer to do that normally (overlords and floating rax/fact). | ||
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Darkstar_X
United States197 Posts
narrow paths, easy FF, Storm, and Colossus aoe no room around back from drops on minerals if you don't put extra money in main, expos are close together | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
Perhaps consider making it possible for cannons to cover the main and natural minerals at the same time. (like having them backed up to the same cliff. I get so annoyed in pvz when I semi wall in, and have to get my stalkers back and forth to defend my main and natural. Maybe even some xelnaga watch towers that can actually see all the paths into your base by air. After all terran gets sensor towers that does this. Also, NO ISLAND EXPANSIONS!!! IMO they heavily favor terran. Plenty of good places to hide proxies is great as well. Another idea id like to see is a mineral only, like on Andromeda in bw. Maybe even a gold mineral only. I think it would be interesting and unique. Only concern is it might favor mules.... | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
Also, every expo should bring you closer to your opponent, and if you're being aggressive, you should be able to defend all your bases relatively well as long as you hold the front, like Destination. | ||
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PhilipJWitow
29 Posts
Maybe make it easy to see incoming drops and make it easy to defend the air space around that area? | ||
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papaHav
Australia14 Posts
Mains on low ground OR with grass around the edges so you can't see proxy pylons (xel naga can still look in) Enemy main so close that a pylon can reach across (!) but ground distance further 2nd in main... but no other expansions (zerg screwed) Mains and 2nds adjacent, against edge of map, without an obstacle between (not LT cliff). So no fliers can fly around back and ground units can easily cover both bases from air attack | ||
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