Not being a Terran player myself, I have been waiting (and fearing) for something like this to come out for quite some time now - nukes didnt seem to have been used to optimal potential yet.

Gonna take a while looking through those 9 replays you provided (thanks for a good selection) so while I do that, I have a few quick questions for the OP from a protoss players perspective:
- How many buildings do you feel you need to take out to make this worthwhile ?
- Do you change into a different build if your opponents base has its buildings spread out a lot (I usually try to get as much vision in my base as possible, especially on a map with a large base area) ?

HeadLikeAHole

United States14 Posts

October 25 2010 07:48 GMT

#22

On October 25 2010 16:38 Nixda wrote:
- How many buildings do you feel you need to take out to make this worthwhile ?

I think 3-4 pylons is usually enough to get a Protoss player supply blocked. This is almost always possible, since one nuke can kill a pylon. The build usually puts you ahead of Protoss even if the nuke fails, and I usually expo at the same time so I'll have a third base & transition into midgame.

- Do you change into a different build if your opponents base has its buildings spread out a lot (I usually try to get as much vision in my base as possible, especially on a map with a large base area)

If the Protoss base is extremely spread out, you can still go for the mineral line and nuke the main & expo by the ramp and hope to catch some probes running away. Often the Protoss doesn't realize that two nukes have been launched and will only react to one. I don't transition into another build because I don't really have one. This one isn't exactly all-in, as you still have a really strong army and ghosts add a lot to it. A cloaked ghost can run ahead and EMP the opponent's army / all of his high templars, which is usually enough for you to win.

Metaspace

Austria670 Posts

October 25 2010 11:29 GMT

#23

What about zapping P buildings' shields with EMP, directly before nuking, as in SCBW? Would this be possible?

TheRabidDeer

United States3806 Posts

October 25 2010 11:40 GMT

#24

On October 25 2010 20:29 Metaspace wrote:
What about zapping P buildings' shields with EMP, directly before nuking, as in SCBW? Would this be possible?

He already answered this, in SC2 its only 100 shields and the 75 energy is more than likely better used for cloak energy. In BW it was effective because it took away all of the shields (if I recall correctly)

Provocateur

Sweden1665 Posts

October 25 2010 12:04 GMT

#25

Love to see a strategy which involves ghost and nukeplay posted. I've been trying to develop some ghost strategies and this will really help me a lot. I can see how this could be extremely powerful in a lot of ways. If you manage to snipe all observers and double nuke the robo before the protoss gets a new one you can just go wild at the probes at the mineral line. Two cloaked ghosts kill probes so so fast. I'll definitely try this strategy out!

And also, this is hilarious:

10% of the male population is red-green color blind and can not see the red nuke dot.

DamageInq

United States283 Posts

October 25 2010 12:16 GMT

#26

I like the idea, but the biggest issue with this is there's so much invested into the nuke play that if the protoss scouts it, or simply goes for an early robo and has an observer out, you're hard countered and possibly completely out of the game. Seems sorta all-in ish.

I'll check out the replays when I get a chance.

shammythefox

United Kingdom286 Posts

October 25 2010 12:33 GMT

#27

I lold heartily.

On the other hand stop teaching scrubby terruns hao to beat us =[

MegaTerran

214 Posts

October 25 2010 12:38 GMT

#28

two ghost academy and expand - too big investment.

Fraidnot

United States824 Posts

October 25 2010 13:02 GMT

#29

That is the sickest sc2 video I've seen! Amazing, I defiantly want to try out this build, but what do you do if P goes for some kind of crazy all in play?

eu.exodus

South Africa1186 Posts

October 25 2010 13:03 GMT

#30

whoa hectic risky! But sounds like a lot of fun. I can only imagine what kind of bmqq you would get from doing that build. I like!

Wartortle

Australia504 Posts

October 25 2010 13:09 GMT

#31

alot of people have been asking about transitions and such, i think this build is more of an all in. i definitely am going to give it a go though

SgtMuffins

United States37 Posts

October 25 2010 13:12 GMT

#32

On October 25 2010 21:16 DamageInq wrote:
I like the idea, but the biggest issue with this is there's so much invested into the nuke play that if the protoss scouts it, or simply goes for an early robo and has an observer out, you're hard countered and possibly completely out of the game. Seems sorta all-in ish.

I'll check out the replays when I get a chance.

Didn't you see him scan and kill an observer in the video? Two ghosts kill an observer in two shots (20 damage per shot, observers have 20 shield, 40 hp). Actually, there's not a whole hell of a lot that the protoss can do to get rid of your ghosts if you can sneak them up to the base. If you're paying attention, you can see the observer outline before you commit your nukes.

HeadLikeAHole

United States14 Posts

October 25 2010 15:18 GMT

#33

On October 25 2010 21:04 Kawamura wrote:
If you manage to snipe all observers and double nuke the robo before the protoss gets a new one you can just go wild at the probes at the mineral line. Two cloaked ghosts kill probes so so fast.

I forgot to mention that! After killing his gateways you can usually snipe 10-20 probes before you run out of energy. This keeps him from rebuilding Pylons and Gateways & usually keeps him from mining for a while. Usually when they run with their probes (a panic response at all their bases) they also forget to put them back on gas and their economy is ruined.

kme

Serbia176 Posts

October 25 2010 16:01 GMT

#34

Wow, you are a GOD among men. Your video has made me so happy.
Thank you

sikyon

Canada1045 Posts

October 25 2010 16:13 GMT

#35

Have you encountered a situation where he spots the cloaked ghost antimation and locks it out of his base with FF? It seems to me that if he can scout a double acadamy that is a dead giveaway nukes are comming and he'll watch his ramp like a hawk.

It might be worthwhile to comsat up his ramp and EMP his sentries if at all possible to prevent this when your ghosts arrive.

Pandu1986

72 Posts

October 25 2010 16:29 GMT

#36

This seems to work only because people invest so little into detection. If any of those protoss had about 3 obs and at least a few back home, I am sure it would have gone differently. More importantly there was one game where the protoss just counter attacks after the nukes fall in his base, what happened in that game? (Havent watched any of the replays, just looking at the video)

sikyon

Canada1045 Posts

October 25 2010 16:34 GMT

#37

On October 26 2010 01:29 Pandu1986 wrote:
This seems to work only because people invest so little into detection. If any of those protoss had about 3 obs and at least a few back home, I am sure it would have gone differently. More importantly there was one game where the protoss just counter attacks after the nukes fall in his base, what happened in that game? (Havent watched any of the replays, just looking at the video)

Of course you invest so little in detection. If he plays standard you're down an extra 100/200 and a ton of time producing out of your robotics which you need to stop MMG. That's enough extra gas for a collossus!

Markwerf

Netherlands3728 Posts

October 25 2010 16:48 GMT

#38

This is the best way to use nuke's imo. It isn't really viable as a straight up build though but more as a gimmick you use when toss has his buildings clusted. The early investment in cloak and a 2nd ghost academy is simply too much if the game is any close and he pushes you.
Also there are a fair bit of ways for protoss to stop this. Observers and cannons are the most obvious ones and can really ruin your day but there are other tricks for toss to stop it as well. Double storm on the cloaked ghosts is one way for example, but it's also possible to interrupt a nuke launch with forcefield if the ghost is at (near) maximum range.

Lots of times you'll be able to get 3 gateways + 3 pylons max or so which isn't enough for it to really pay off. You need a extra ghost academy, 2 nukes and probably the sacrifice of 2 ghosts to pull if off.
3 gateways, 3 pylons = 750m. Extra ghost academy, 2 nukes and 2 ghosts = 700m 550g.

I only think this is worth it if you are notice at least 800 minerals of buildings bunched up and can do this relatively safely, ie. not losing your ghosts etc. I simply don't think any build that actively tries to do this is any good as in so many games it simply sucks, if they have a obs or cannon near their natural it is quite unlikely you walk in so easily for example.

HeadLikeAHole

United States14 Posts

October 25 2010 16:52 GMT

#39

More importantly there was one game where the protoss just counter attacks after the nukes fall in his base, what happened in that game? (Havent watched any of the replays, just looking at the video)

I stopped that attack with a few well-placed EMPs and a couple vikings to take out his colossi. He killed most of my army, though. I did lose that game about 10 minutes later, but it was my fault for suiciding my army up his ramp instead of killing his 2 expansions. It was a very close game, and if I killed his expansions instead I would have won easily.