|
I found that cloaked banshees can be scouted with various timing pushes, and answered fairly quickly
for example,
poke with first stalker: you see a couple marines: possibility of getting cloaked banshees.
now you have 2 choices, either you build that robo right away and commit to a 1/2 gate robo build, or you do something else, such as stargate void ray push of 4 gate push.
with the 4 gate, attack at your 2nd wave, and during the attack, try to see if theres a starport with tech lab. if there is, try to kill it, if you cant, build a robo, and chrono an observer asap. Unless your attack is a complete fail, the robo will be completed by the time the 4 gate push is over (you can of course win outright with it) and just chrono an observer out, which will come out more or less when the banshees will try to harass.
Same thing with the void ray push, if you see hes getting cloak, and you killed all the marines, its pretty much gg since you gotta build a robo asap, but the void ray will keep wrecking his base, so while you have a solution to his harass, he has to respond to your attack.
Of course this isnt fool proof but you get the idea: time an attack before cloak finishes to force him to make less banshees/or defend, therefore delaying banshee harass, and figure out if you need that robo or not
|
Id also like to state that banshees are a real pain to deal with nonetheless
|
The first set of banshees are a little annoying. Once a phoenix is out, banshees are a joke. I love when my opponent goes banshees.
Always go robo. You need the ob against Terran no matter what you're doing.
4 gate against Terran is epic fail.
|
On October 12 2010 04:30 whoopadeedoo wrote:
The first set of banshees are a little annoying. Once a phoenix is out, banshees are a joke. I love when my opponent goes banshees.
Always go robo. You need the ob against Terran no matter what you're doing.
4 gate against Terran is epic fail.
not if you know how to do it correctly 
it is certain that "warpin 2-3 waves of units and 1-a his wall" wont work
|
Imo 4 gate isnt "epic fail" If he rushes banshee u can do MUCH damage with that (or even win ) he wont have marauder just marines and 1 or 2 bunker (if he went helion drop its even stronger)
|
If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units.
|
You really should be 2 gate pushing to poke and see if he can hold it, and to see what he's getting. I have had opponents going for this gimmick strat lose pretty hard to 2 gate pressure alone.
|
Here's my thoughts.
You HAVE to go robo first... blind. You just have to. So you get your observer, scout this build, and must backtrack to a stargate. Now you have a somewhat useless robo. So you start making phoenixes, probably make a another gateway, but you can't get very many units b/c you made a useless robo and maybe a useless immortal. So your phoenixes may kill the banshees, but who cares? The marines will still kill you.
You kind of need to expand as soon as you see this, and start getting templar tech.
|
On October 12 2010 04:56 whoopadeedoo wrote:If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units.
I like your close-mindedness. Just cause YOU cant make it work at your "level" doesnt mean it simply doesnt work. If some 3000 point terran decides to rush cloak and only defends with a bunker full of marines, you will win with a 4 gate push.
|
Void rays opening loses to iEchoic's build (1/1/2 with hellion drop before banshees) if you don't get at least 2 VRs, because it has enough marines to deal with it and a bunker in case of a two-pronged attack. It also scouts your base with the drop so you need either a proxy stargate or a double+ stargate if you want to surprise him with 2+ VRs (which can succeed if it isn't scouted).
It seems it is sensible to some FE openings because it attacks too late to prevent the expo from kicking in.
Phoenix are only useful if you open with them, to harass a bit, or prevent any non-cloaked banshee harass (if you don't have a robo you'll lose to cloaked banshees, if you have his marines will overpower your ground army, though). Several people tried to put down a stargate once they saw the drop/a techlabed starport, but they have at most 3 phoenixes when the push comes, and stimmed marines kill them real fast.
If my opponents gets his expo fast enough w/o me scouting it in time to make an early push or change my build, or he gets to templar tech, things get different and I lose or stop using banshees, of course.
|
Void ray was an example, its not very effective unless your opponent is going 3 rax
|
On October 12 2010 05:06 gr8ape wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 04:56 whoopadeedoo wrote:If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units. I like your close-mindedness. Just cause YOU cant make it work at your "level" doesnt mean it simply doesnt work. If some 3000 point terran decides to rush cloak and only defends with a bunker full of marines, you will win with a 4 gate push.
I'm not being closed-minded. I'm simply stating that 4 gate is a bad all-in strat in general. Bad strats can work in specific situations, but not most. This is why it's a bad strat.
I have no idea what skill level you guys are, but if 4 gate against T is working for you, go for it. I'm just telling right now that it will run into an epic fail wall once you go up against higher level terran competition.
|
On October 12 2010 05:16 whoopadeedoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:06 gr8ape wrote:On October 12 2010 04:56 whoopadeedoo wrote:If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units. I like your close-mindedness. Just cause YOU cant make it work at your "level" doesnt mean it simply doesnt work. If some 3000 point terran decides to rush cloak and only defends with a bunker full of marines, you will win with a 4 gate push. I'm not being closed-minded. I'm simply stating that 4 gate is a bad all-in strat in general. Bad strats can work in specific situations, but not most. This is why it's a bad strat. I have no idea what skill level you guys are, but if 4 gate against T is working for you, go for it. I'm just telling right now that it will run into an epic fail wall once you go up against higher level terran competition.
I agree that 4 gate in general vs terran is bad, what I mean is that if you see nothing but 2-3 marines with your first stalker, and no tech lab on the rax, 4 gate can cause A LOT of damage, and can actually be worth it (ie not all in)
seriously, try it! next time you poke into 2-3 marines with your first stalker, go 4 gate, warpin 4 stalkers, plant 1-2 pylons just far enough from his ramp so that you will have vision to warp in if you walk up the ramp, and time yourself so that you walk up the ramp with the stalkers you warpin 4 zealots immediatly on the high ground. You can micro the stalkers a bit so they dont die too fast and spread the initial marine/bunker damage onto the zealots too. Figure out if they have techlabbed starport, and if you can, either kill the techlab if possible, or build a robo, and keep applying pressure.
|
Ok. The problem is, you won't know exactly what you're up against until you have ob. If you 4 gate, you have no ob. You're just blindly hoping that the bunker up front means 1/1/1. And seeing as you agree that 4 gate PvT is a bad strat, why would you gamble in this direction?
|
On October 12 2010 05:30 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Ok. The problem is, you won't know exactly what you're up against until you have ob. If you 4 gate, you have no ob. You're just blindly hoping that the bunker up front means 1/1/1. And seeing as you agree that 4 gate PvT is a bad strat, why would you gamble in this direction?
I feel that the terran does have enough to fully abuse the cost-effectiveness of his units after 2 rounds of warpins, unless he goes marine-techlab-marauder
|
On October 12 2010 05:06 Alaric wrote:
Void rays opening loses to iEchoic's build (1/1/2 with hellion drop before banshees) if you don't get at least 2 VRs, because it has enough marines to deal with it and a bunker in case of a two-pronged attack. It also scouts your base with the drop so you need either a proxy stargate or a double+ stargate if you want to surprise him with 2+ VRs (which can succeed if it isn't scouted)....
Phoenix are only useful if you open with them, to harass a bit, or prevent any non-cloaked banshee harass (if you don't have a robo you'll lose to cloaked banshees, if you have his marines will overpower your ground army, though). Several people tried to put down a stargate once they saw the drop/a techlabed starport, but they have at most 3 phoenixes when the push comes, and stimmed marines kill them real fast.
Alaric, I agree, in that I have little trouble fending off Void Rays using iechoic's 1/1/2. But I do find that Phoenix are effective counters. I don't know what modification you make to the build, but the traditional 1/1/2 does not have stim for the first timing attack.
If I move out with four banshees (without cloak), 12 rines, a medivac, and a hellion or two, a toss army with 3 phoenixes, heavy zealots (to take out rines), a few stalkers, and a sentry or two handles the attack well. If I face this sort of composition, we usually trade armies and commence massing off of two bases.
tehemperorer, I don't know what you mean by gimmicky. This strategy allows me, as a T, to expo after often doing economic damage with a significant amount of teching already under my belt. Btw, I only get cloak when I see that my opponent has no robo. I've had a few toss rage at my use of cheesy-OP cloaked banshees without understanding that I only invest the 200/200 in cloak if they are too aggressive (4 gate) or greedy (FE) to throw down a robo. The banshee is a legitimate damage-dealing unit, not just a gimmicky vehicle for cheese.
|
On October 12 2010 04:56 whoopadeedoo wrote:If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units.
I'm 1500, and I lose ONLY (games under 10 min) to outright 4 gate play. Same guy beat me twice with 4 wgate rushes today. I even know its coming. Banshee tech is weak against a well placed forward plyon and constant warp in damage.
Constantly change what you warp. He gets more maras, get almost straight zealots and eat up the maras. Banshees can't do enough damage when you have to kite with protoss in your base or at your door
|
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Polt_timing_attack_(vs._Protoss)
Polt timing attack, comes with reactor rines and marauders in constant production, with stim, 2 banshees, and a raven with PDD at your base @ 10 minutes.
It is far too much infantry for you to try to squeeze some phoenix out. This build is actually designed to kill protoss who get a colossus to deal with the reactor'd rines. If you dont get the colossus, you die to rines. If you do, you're too committed to get anything to deal with banshees or PDD.
Anyone know the protoss solution to this one yeT?
|
On October 12 2010 07:04 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 04:56 whoopadeedoo wrote:If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units. I'm 1500, and I lose ONLY (games under 10 min) to outright 4 gate play. Same guy beat me twice with 4 wgate rushes today. I even know its coming. Banshee tech is weak against a well placed forward plyon and constant warp in damage. Constantly change what you warp. He gets more maras, get almost straight zealots and eat up the maras. Banshees can't do enough damage when you have to kite with protoss in your base or at your door
can't you just throw up 2 bunkers at your choke and repair?
|
On October 12 2010 07:04 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 04:56 whoopadeedoo wrote:If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units. I'm 1500, and I lose ONLY (games under 10 min) to outright 4 gate play. Same guy beat me twice with 4 wgate rushes today. I even know its coming. Banshee tech is weak against a well placed forward plyon and constant warp in damage. Constantly change what you warp. He gets more maras, get almost straight zealots and eat up the maras. Banshees can't do enough damage when you have to kite with protoss in your base or at your door
Do you do 1/1/1/ builds every PvT? I don't know how any Terran can lose to 4 gate with multi-rax or MMM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
