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Up to now I encountered banshees as these harrassing units where they flew around and got some probe kills. However, thesedays I see more and more terrans using the banshee as a main part of their army.
The two strats that I am mostly losing to are
1) The polt timing attack <- this seems to hit at around the 9min mark
2) Hellions into double starport banshee <- general same timing
Since i loose to these every time now i know how to scout for whenether a banshee will come or not. The problem is even if I know it is coming I cannot seem to find a solution to fend off the timing push. Also in the polt timing attack the PDD's practically make my stalkers worthless. I tired to make the terrans waste energy but the terran just waits untill he can cast another one and attacks.
The build I usually go for in pvt is the onegate FE. It would be appreciated if someone could tell me generally what to do when you know banshees are coming. Maybe cutting probes to get more units??.. By the way im a 1400+toss
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As a terran player who usually does the hellion drop then banshees i can tell that you can protect yourself with one or two cannons at your mineral line and stalkers. the hellion drop is a counter to your FE it will beat you most if not every time.
one good way to tell if a terran player is doing this strat is the barracks. if he does not have a tech lab on his rax by the 3-4min mark i would prepare for a hellion drop followed by banshees.
the other problem i cant comment on because I have never used that strat.
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manually target the pdd. it's very low on health. and blink stalkers?or archons.
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Well, the problem for me here is that when i see banshee plays coming I stay on one base. Defending marine/banshee pressure without being able to use a ramp and before colossi or storm are up, that's hard stuff. On maps with a less open natural like temple, you can probably do acceptably well with forcefield micro.
In terms of defending the raven plays, I think it's important for you to have some map control. I almost never fail to die when a PDD is dropped within range of my nexus, but you can skirmish well with forcefield in the open field.
I am increasingly going for early phoenix against any build with a fast factory. As I see it, fast factory means either hellion drop, tank push, bancheese, or raven pressure. Phoenix is good against all of these plays. I'm not sure this is a viable option off a 1 gate FE opening though.
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I posted this somewhere else, but it's applicable to your question:
If you scout a starport with tech lab, you know for sure banshees and/or ravens are coming. For me, whenever I see a tech-labbed starport, I put down a stargate, but some other toss players will only stargate if they see two starports. Phoenixes make quick work of both ravens and banshees and can patrol your base's perimeter when they're not engaged, helping with medivac drops. Phoenixes are also pretty good at taking down PDDs should you have to since they fire at a decent rate and 2 shots per round.
Regarding specifically PDDs, these really nullify stalkers, so the key here is to engage the terran army away from your base (making terran throw down a PDD where he didn't want to). Sometimes with enough stalkers and phoenixes (and esp sentries), you can "power" your way through PDDs and still win, but the safest way is to simply dictate where terran uses his first PDD. IOW, don't camp around your base if you know this push is coming. Once you make terran waste his PDD away from your base, move back out of the PDD range and engage his PDD-less army.
The ground army composition against this should be zealot heavy with a couple of sentries for GS (FF behind marines to prevent kiting if you have spare energy after the GS). Stalkers and phoenixes should deal with the ravens and banshees, and the zealots and sentries take care of the marines.
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On October 12 2010 03:16 KingofHearts wrote:
manually target the pdd. it's very low on health. and blink stalkers?or archons.
You do realiize that the pdd still fulfills its purpose if you focus fire it, right?
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I'm not a Protoss player at all, but logically thinking I'd imagine that a few Phoenix + Zealot-Sentry(instead of Stalker)-based ground army should fare decently well. Might need to get Charge quickly, though.
(I could be totally wrong here but...)
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well give #2 a credit to iechoic (I think ppl using 2 is using his build xD), only way I lost was due proxy dark shrine, since i wasnt expecting DT destroyed main army (pure marines) while banshees alone ended up losing to it. But I guess best choice is fast phoenix indeed ...
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The problem here it seems is that to block this you either have to not take an fe or go stargate tech. With not taking an FE I seem to get rolled over with bio and with a stargate since I have to get a robo + stalkers + sentries + the stargate with phoniexes i do not have enough gas to make an army that can take on the banshee marine army.
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I find that if i do hellion drop -> 2port banshees i lose 100% of the time to a 2-3 void ray push, mainly because i am bad at scouting and don't see it coming.
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On October 12 2010 03:16 KingofHearts wrote:
manually target the pdd. it's very low on health. and blink stalkers?or archons.
lol...what are you talking about?
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Hmm it seems i might have to go stargate first into robo
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If you are looking to counter banshees then build phoenixes..
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On October 12 2010 03:16 KingofHearts wrote:
manually target the pdd. it's very low on health. and blink stalkers?or archons.
Doesn't matter what you target. The PDD can not be taken down by projectile fire before it's energy is used up, regardless of health. That's the whole point of the PDD.
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On October 12 2010 03:32 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 03:16 KingofHearts wrote:
manually target the pdd. it's very low on health. and blink stalkers?or archons. lol...what are you talking about?
Maybe he means to target the PDD with sentries? They aren't affected by PDD, and its HP are pretty low so they can get rid of it pretty quick.
On another note, can one feedback a PDD? I haven't tried this in-game.
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On October 12 2010 03:38 Reason.SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 03:32 sob3k wrote:On October 12 2010 03:16 KingofHearts wrote:
manually target the pdd. it's very low on health. and blink stalkers?or archons. lol...what are you talking about? Maybe he means to target the PDD with sentries? They aren't affected by PDD, and its HP are pretty low so they can get rid of it pretty quick. On another note, can one feedback a PDD? I haven't tried this in-game.
didnt think of target firing a PDD with sentries before
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On October 12 2010 03:31 Ender Wiggin wrote:
The problem here it seems is that to block this you either have to not take an fe or go stargate tech. With not taking an FE I seem to get rolled over with bio and with a stargate since I have to get a robo + stalkers + sentries + the stargate with phoniexes i do not have enough gas to make an army that can take on the banshee marine army.
FE is great against this build. And you do not need to open with stargate to deal with it. With FE, you build your standard 1 zealot 3 stalker opener, then you expo and drop down one more gate and a robo, then another gate. Go poke the front of his base to see if there is a bunker or mass marines (dead giveaway that he is going 1/1/1 opener), and if you see this, warp in zealots and sentries at this point instead of more stalkers. The stalkers you built thus far will hold back the earliest banshee harass. If/when a banshee first harasses you or if your ob scouts them (or tech-labbed starport), put down your stargate and CB out a few phoenixes while warping in more zealots.
On October 12 2010 03:32 Ender Wiggin wrote:
Hmm it seems i might have to go stargate first into robo
No, you robo first. You need it in case he goes cloak harass. You should crank out two obs ... one to scout his base (look to see if there are tech-labbed starports) and one around your army and/or mineral line to prevent cloak banshee harass. Again, the timing is such that it is ok to get robo before stargate. You only stargate if you see a tech-labbed starport (and some people won't even stargate unless they see two such buildings).
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On October 12 2010 03:38 Reason.SC2 wrote:
On another note, can one feedback a PDD? I haven't tried this in-game.
Prior to 1.1, you could. Not anymore.
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On October 12 2010 03:38 Reason.SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 03:32 sob3k wrote:On October 12 2010 03:16 KingofHearts wrote:
manually target the pdd. it's very low on health. and blink stalkers?or archons. lol...what are you talking about? Maybe he means to target the PDD with sentries? They aren't affected by PDD, and its HP are pretty low so they can get rid of it pretty quick. On another note, can one feedback a PDD? I haven't tried this in-game.
You used to be able to feedback a PDD, Blizzard removed it  .
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I can give u some feedback from the terran point of view.
My cloaked banshee build against toss is 1 barracks into 2 fast starport so my cloaked banshees enter ur base at the 7 or 8 minute mark (at least I think that was the timing - not 100% sure)
You have to get either observers or 2-3 cannons in ur mineral line to defend that - early stargate would crush non cloaked banshees but against cloaked banshees you lose your whole economy.
Personally I dont like helions that much in PvT cause well placed stalkers just demolish the helions and I get my banshees much later. In addition I think its VERY hard to hold your fast expansion.
By the way can someone explain that timing attack with the PDD it sounds really well [ :.
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I found that cloaked banshees can be scouted with various timing pushes, and answered fairly quickly
for example,
poke with first stalker: you see a couple marines: possibility of getting cloaked banshees.
now you have 2 choices, either you build that robo right away and commit to a 1/2 gate robo build, or you do something else, such as stargate void ray push of 4 gate push.
with the 4 gate, attack at your 2nd wave, and during the attack, try to see if theres a starport with tech lab. if there is, try to kill it, if you cant, build a robo, and chrono an observer asap. Unless your attack is a complete fail, the robo will be completed by the time the 4 gate push is over (you can of course win outright with it) and just chrono an observer out, which will come out more or less when the banshees will try to harass.
Same thing with the void ray push, if you see hes getting cloak, and you killed all the marines, its pretty much gg since you gotta build a robo asap, but the void ray will keep wrecking his base, so while you have a solution to his harass, he has to respond to your attack.
Of course this isnt fool proof but you get the idea: time an attack before cloak finishes to force him to make less banshees/or defend, therefore delaying banshee harass, and figure out if you need that robo or not
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Id also like to state that banshees are a real pain to deal with nonetheless
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The first set of banshees are a little annoying. Once a phoenix is out, banshees are a joke. I love when my opponent goes banshees.
Always go robo. You need the ob against Terran no matter what you're doing.
4 gate against Terran is epic fail.
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On October 12 2010 04:30 whoopadeedoo wrote:
The first set of banshees are a little annoying. Once a phoenix is out, banshees are a joke. I love when my opponent goes banshees.
Always go robo. You need the ob against Terran no matter what you're doing.
4 gate against Terran is epic fail.
not if you know how to do it correctly 
it is certain that "warpin 2-3 waves of units and 1-a his wall" wont work
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Imo 4 gate isnt "epic fail" If he rushes banshee u can do MUCH damage with that (or even win ) he wont have marauder just marines and 1 or 2 bunker (if he went helion drop its even stronger)
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If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units.
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You really should be 2 gate pushing to poke and see if he can hold it, and to see what he's getting. I have had opponents going for this gimmick strat lose pretty hard to 2 gate pressure alone.
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Here's my thoughts.
You HAVE to go robo first... blind. You just have to. So you get your observer, scout this build, and must backtrack to a stargate. Now you have a somewhat useless robo. So you start making phoenixes, probably make a another gateway, but you can't get very many units b/c you made a useless robo and maybe a useless immortal. So your phoenixes may kill the banshees, but who cares? The marines will still kill you.
You kind of need to expand as soon as you see this, and start getting templar tech.
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On October 12 2010 04:56 whoopadeedoo wrote:If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units.
I like your close-mindedness. Just cause YOU cant make it work at your "level" doesnt mean it simply doesnt work. If some 3000 point terran decides to rush cloak and only defends with a bunker full of marines, you will win with a 4 gate push.
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Void rays opening loses to iEchoic's build (1/1/2 with hellion drop before banshees) if you don't get at least 2 VRs, because it has enough marines to deal with it and a bunker in case of a two-pronged attack. It also scouts your base with the drop so you need either a proxy stargate or a double+ stargate if you want to surprise him with 2+ VRs (which can succeed if it isn't scouted).
It seems it is sensible to some FE openings because it attacks too late to prevent the expo from kicking in.
Phoenix are only useful if you open with them, to harass a bit, or prevent any non-cloaked banshee harass (if you don't have a robo you'll lose to cloaked banshees, if you have his marines will overpower your ground army, though). Several people tried to put down a stargate once they saw the drop/a techlabed starport, but they have at most 3 phoenixes when the push comes, and stimmed marines kill them real fast.
If my opponents gets his expo fast enough w/o me scouting it in time to make an early push or change my build, or he gets to templar tech, things get different and I lose or stop using banshees, of course.
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Void ray was an example, its not very effective unless your opponent is going 3 rax
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On October 12 2010 05:06 gr8ape wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 04:56 whoopadeedoo wrote:If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units. I like your close-mindedness. Just cause YOU cant make it work at your "level" doesnt mean it simply doesnt work. If some 3000 point terran decides to rush cloak and only defends with a bunker full of marines, you will win with a 4 gate push.
I'm not being closed-minded. I'm simply stating that 4 gate is a bad all-in strat in general. Bad strats can work in specific situations, but not most. This is why it's a bad strat.
I have no idea what skill level you guys are, but if 4 gate against T is working for you, go for it. I'm just telling right now that it will run into an epic fail wall once you go up against higher level terran competition.
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On October 12 2010 05:16 whoopadeedoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 05:06 gr8ape wrote:On October 12 2010 04:56 whoopadeedoo wrote:If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units. I like your close-mindedness. Just cause YOU cant make it work at your "level" doesnt mean it simply doesnt work. If some 3000 point terran decides to rush cloak and only defends with a bunker full of marines, you will win with a 4 gate push. I'm not being closed-minded. I'm simply stating that 4 gate is a bad all-in strat in general. Bad strats can work in specific situations, but not most. This is why it's a bad strat. I have no idea what skill level you guys are, but if 4 gate against T is working for you, go for it. I'm just telling right now that it will run into an epic fail wall once you go up against higher level terran competition.
I agree that 4 gate in general vs terran is bad, what I mean is that if you see nothing but 2-3 marines with your first stalker, and no tech lab on the rax, 4 gate can cause A LOT of damage, and can actually be worth it (ie not all in)
seriously, try it! next time you poke into 2-3 marines with your first stalker, go 4 gate, warpin 4 stalkers, plant 1-2 pylons just far enough from his ramp so that you will have vision to warp in if you walk up the ramp, and time yourself so that you walk up the ramp with the stalkers you warpin 4 zealots immediatly on the high ground. You can micro the stalkers a bit so they dont die too fast and spread the initial marine/bunker damage onto the zealots too. Figure out if they have techlabbed starport, and if you can, either kill the techlab if possible, or build a robo, and keep applying pressure.
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Ok. The problem is, you won't know exactly what you're up against until you have ob. If you 4 gate, you have no ob. You're just blindly hoping that the bunker up front means 1/1/1. And seeing as you agree that 4 gate PvT is a bad strat, why would you gamble in this direction?
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On October 12 2010 05:30 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Ok. The problem is, you won't know exactly what you're up against until you have ob. If you 4 gate, you have no ob. You're just blindly hoping that the bunker up front means 1/1/1. And seeing as you agree that 4 gate PvT is a bad strat, why would you gamble in this direction?
I feel that the terran does have enough to fully abuse the cost-effectiveness of his units after 2 rounds of warpins, unless he goes marine-techlab-marauder
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On October 12 2010 05:06 Alaric wrote:
Void rays opening loses to iEchoic's build (1/1/2 with hellion drop before banshees) if you don't get at least 2 VRs, because it has enough marines to deal with it and a bunker in case of a two-pronged attack. It also scouts your base with the drop so you need either a proxy stargate or a double+ stargate if you want to surprise him with 2+ VRs (which can succeed if it isn't scouted)....
Phoenix are only useful if you open with them, to harass a bit, or prevent any non-cloaked banshee harass (if you don't have a robo you'll lose to cloaked banshees, if you have his marines will overpower your ground army, though). Several people tried to put down a stargate once they saw the drop/a techlabed starport, but they have at most 3 phoenixes when the push comes, and stimmed marines kill them real fast.
Alaric, I agree, in that I have little trouble fending off Void Rays using iechoic's 1/1/2. But I do find that Phoenix are effective counters. I don't know what modification you make to the build, but the traditional 1/1/2 does not have stim for the first timing attack.
If I move out with four banshees (without cloak), 12 rines, a medivac, and a hellion or two, a toss army with 3 phoenixes, heavy zealots (to take out rines), a few stalkers, and a sentry or two handles the attack well. If I face this sort of composition, we usually trade armies and commence massing off of two bases.
tehemperorer, I don't know what you mean by gimmicky. This strategy allows me, as a T, to expo after often doing economic damage with a significant amount of teching already under my belt. Btw, I only get cloak when I see that my opponent has no robo. I've had a few toss rage at my use of cheesy-OP cloaked banshees without understanding that I only invest the 200/200 in cloak if they are too aggressive (4 gate) or greedy (FE) to throw down a robo. The banshee is a legitimate damage-dealing unit, not just a gimmicky vehicle for cheese.
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On October 12 2010 04:56 whoopadeedoo wrote:If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units.
I'm 1500, and I lose ONLY (games under 10 min) to outright 4 gate play. Same guy beat me twice with 4 wgate rushes today. I even know its coming. Banshee tech is weak against a well placed forward plyon and constant warp in damage.
Constantly change what you warp. He gets more maras, get almost straight zealots and eat up the maras. Banshees can't do enough damage when you have to kite with protoss in your base or at your door
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http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Polt_timing_attack_(vs._Protoss)
Polt timing attack, comes with reactor rines and marauders in constant production, with stim, 2 banshees, and a raven with PDD at your base @ 10 minutes.
It is far too much infantry for you to try to squeeze some phoenix out. This build is actually designed to kill protoss who get a colossus to deal with the reactor'd rines. If you dont get the colossus, you die to rines. If you do, you're too committed to get anything to deal with banshees or PDD.
Anyone know the protoss solution to this one yeT?
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On October 12 2010 07:04 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 04:56 whoopadeedoo wrote:If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units. I'm 1500, and I lose ONLY (games under 10 min) to outright 4 gate play. Same guy beat me twice with 4 wgate rushes today. I even know its coming. Banshee tech is weak against a well placed forward plyon and constant warp in damage. Constantly change what you warp. He gets more maras, get almost straight zealots and eat up the maras. Banshees can't do enough damage when you have to kite with protoss in your base or at your door
can't you just throw up 2 bunkers at your choke and repair?
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On October 12 2010 07:04 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 04:56 whoopadeedoo wrote:If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units. I'm 1500, and I lose ONLY (games under 10 min) to outright 4 gate play. Same guy beat me twice with 4 wgate rushes today. I even know its coming. Banshee tech is weak against a well placed forward plyon and constant warp in damage. Constantly change what you warp. He gets more maras, get almost straight zealots and eat up the maras. Banshees can't do enough damage when you have to kite with protoss in your base or at your door
Do you do 1/1/1/ builds every PvT? I don't know how any Terran can lose to 4 gate with multi-rax or MMM.
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On October 12 2010 07:09 KaoReal wrote:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Polt_timing_attack_(vs._Protoss)Polt timing attack, comes with reactor rines and marauders in constant production, with stim, 2 banshees, and a raven with PDD at your base @ 10 minutes. It is far too much infantry for you to try to squeeze some phoenix out. This build is actually designed to kill protoss who get a colossus to deal with the reactor'd rines. If you dont get the colossus, you die to rines. If you do, you're too committed to get anything to deal with banshees or PDD. Anyone know the protoss solution to this one yeT?
The fast templar/forge build can stop the polt timing attack. You can have a couple templar with storm, you can feedback the air units and storm the bio and do pretty well.
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On October 12 2010 07:14 iEchoic wrote:
The fast templar/forge build can stop the polt timing attack. You can have a couple templar with storm, you can feedback the air units and storm the bio and do pretty well.
Do you have any info or links to this build? Search function doesn't yield anything.
What is the forge for? Are you supposed to drop cannons as a replacement for the units that you won't get because of the quick tech up?
Templar definitely seem like the best solution to this, I'm just unsure of the timing and ordering. Replays?
edit: Also, does this build have to be done blind? Like without robofac? While there are a couple indicators of a polt attack coming, one cannot be sure that is the case unless one has an obs to spot the raven coming out.
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On October 12 2010 07:14 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 07:09 KaoReal wrote:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Polt_timing_attack_(vs._Protoss)Polt timing attack, comes with reactor rines and marauders in constant production, with stim, 2 banshees, and a raven with PDD at your base @ 10 minutes. It is far too much infantry for you to try to squeeze some phoenix out. This build is actually designed to kill protoss who get a colossus to deal with the reactor'd rines. If you dont get the colossus, you die to rines. If you do, you're too committed to get anything to deal with banshees or PDD. Anyone know the protoss solution to this one yeT? The fast templar/forge build can stop the polt timing attack. You can have a couple templar with storm, you can feedback the air units and storm the bio and do pretty well.
Any guides/replays on this build you're mentioning? Had exams so haven't kept up and this seems a new thing.
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Thanks for the Polt build ( :
I guess Im going to try it soon - I really like banshees in my army against toss and zerg
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If you do the 1 gate FE build and micro correctly and get out the correct units you should be able to hold this push just fine. Generally even if you get a robo before the templars you should have 1 or 2 templars out by the time he pushes with storm reasearching (this is if you skip charge for a bit since you wont need it with no rauders out). Feedback the raven before he gets the pdd off and if u micro correctly you should be able to hold this push off. Feedbacking the raven (and if storm isnt ready the banshees) is probobly the most crucial part about this. I'll see if i can find any replays of this that ive recently played. Tbh ive found the rine/thor push in 1800+ diomand to be much harder to hold off when u 1 gate FE.
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As this game is so young, there is little experimentation in protoss builds using stargate AND robo.. it always seems to be one or the other. The spending in such a build is very awkward, I will admit. But lately vs terran I will always gate-core-robo chrono observer, and if you scout the ports, immediately throw down a stargate. Phoenixes funnily enough rip banshees a new one as they are light armoured. This shuts down the harass nicely, and means you can handle drops well later. Then, against the marines some zealots and sentries for guardian shield (VITAL against large marine numbers) and FF if you have the energy will stop this push cold. The only problem is you will be 1-basing for quite a while, and the terran is likely to expand as he pushes. So you should aim to CRUSH the push in order to have made any gain.
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On October 12 2010 07:18 KaoReal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 07:14 iEchoic wrote:
The fast templar/forge build can stop the polt timing attack. You can have a couple templar with storm, you can feedback the air units and storm the bio and do pretty well. Do you have any info or links to this build?
On October 12 2010 07:20 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 07:14 iEchoic wrote:On October 12 2010 07:09 KaoReal wrote:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Polt_timing_attack_(vs._Protoss)Polt timing attack, comes with reactor rines and marauders in constant production, with stim, 2 banshees, and a raven with PDD at your base @ 10 minutes. It is far too much infantry for you to try to squeeze some phoenix out. This build is actually designed to kill protoss who get a colossus to deal with the reactor'd rines. If you dont get the colossus, you die to rines. If you do, you're too committed to get anything to deal with banshees or PDD. Anyone know the protoss solution to this one yeT? The fast templar/forge build can stop the polt timing attack. You can have a couple templar with storm, you can feedback the air units and storm the bio and do pretty well. Any guides/replays on this build you're mentioning? Had exams so haven't kept up and this seems a new thing.
I don't know of any guides, but you can check out this replay of me losing to it. It looks like he held out on the forge until later, but either way, this works.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156890.jpg)
I didn't do the polt timing push but I've played this build many times and I know it doesn't work against it because I've tried. Note the 2 templar with storm at 10:00. I start playing badly near the end because I'm trying new compositions against templar spam, but you get the point.
On October 12 2010 07:39 LtLolburger wrote:
The only problem is you will be 1-basing for quite a while, and the terran is likely to expand as he pushes. So you should aim to CRUSH the push in order to have made any gain.
You're right here - but it doesn't actually make a difference because TvP lategame is pretty lopsided in favor of P. A lot of P players are starting to realize they can enter the lategame with an economic disadvantage and make up for it with their lategame composition strength.
Hope that helps.
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On October 12 2010 07:34 Bandino wrote:
If you do the 1 gate FE build and micro correctly and get out the correct units you should be able to hold this push just fine. Generally even if you get a robo before the templars you should have 1 or 2 templars out by the time he pushes with storm reasearching (this is if you skip charge for a bit since you wont need it with no rauders out). Feedback the raven before he gets the pdd off and if u micro correctly you should be able to hold this push off. Feedbacking the raven (and if storm isnt ready the banshees) is probobly the most crucial part about this. I'll see if i can find any replays of this that ive recently played. Tbh ive found the rine/thor push in 1800+ diomand to be much harder to hold off when u 1 gate FE.
In my experience, 1 gate FE doesn't get an obs at the terran's base to scout this until about 9 minutes. This leaves you with approx. one minute to get your teching done.
With full chronoboosting, it takes almost three minutes to get templar with storm. Storm is essential to dealing with an infantry ball of that size with stim.
I must be doing something really wrong with my ordering, so if you can find those replays, I would be very thankful ^^
TY
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Well heres one I got in like 10 minutes. Terrans sure love this push. The push comes at around 10 minues (he got a viking to snipe the obs which you will sometimes encounter in the push). AndIn my experience, 1 gate FE doesn't get an obs at the terran's base to scout this until about 9 minutes.
You dont have to have an obs in his base to knows whats coming. Poke a probe around if you see mass marines you have a pretty good idea of what is coming.
Heres the replay as promised (im 1900 so its not gooing to be pro but it wont be some gold game either)
http://www.mediafire.com/?v7esh8w1nc3r115
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On October 12 2010 07:04 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 04:56 whoopadeedoo wrote:If you guys say so It doesn't work at 1500+ diamond. It is, as I said, epic fail. Too many things in Terran's arsenal steamroll one base gateway units. I'm 1500, and I lose ONLY (games under 10 min) to outright 4 gate play. Same guy beat me twice with 4 wgate rushes today. I even know its coming. Banshee tech is weak against a well placed forward plyon and constant warp in damage. Constantly change what you warp. He gets more maras, get almost straight zealots and eat up the maras. Banshees can't do enough damage when you have to kite with protoss in your base or at your door
100% agree. I've been demolished by well timed 4 gate pushes. Usually its the heavy gas 4 gate stalker sentry mix. Marines and hellions get steamrolled by this composition. Again the push must come early when there are only a couple banshees out.
Another build I've lost to is the forge FE --> VR. Cannons at the mineral lines and front entrance. Hellion drop nullified. Then the banshee tech gets rolled by VR. Sure the rines can counter VR but with a FE you can hit VR critical mass before T gets enough rines to counter
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On October 12 2010 08:21 Bandino wrote:Well heres one I got in like 10 minutes. Terrans sure love this push. The push comes at around 10 minues (he got a viking to snipe the obs which you will sometimes encounter in the push). And Show nested quote +In my experience, 1 gate FE doesn't get an obs at the terran's base to scout this until about 9 minutes. You dont have to have an obs in his base to knows whats coming. Poke a probe around if you see mass marines you have a pretty good idea of what is coming. Heres the replay as promised (im 1900 so its not gooing to be pro but it wont be some gold game either) http://www.mediafire.com/?v7esh8w1nc3r115
just 8x'd it, and wow! thats a very nice looking build you have there, though i've seen 1100 terrans play better than he did in that game. i dont know if he was just using a bad build or what, but the ones ive been looking at are about 20 food higher at 10 minutes, though they dont have the viking. i really don't think the viking is worth saccing that much food for, but then again, 20 more food of infantry isnt going to do a lot vs templar
thx for the replay, going to take a closer look at it now.
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just 8x'd it, and wow! thats a very nice looking build you have there, though i've seen 1100 terrans play better than he did in that game. i dont know if he was just using a bad build or what, but the ones ive been looking at are about 20 food higher at 10 minutes, though they dont have the viking. i really don't think the viking is worth saccing that much food for, but then again, 20 more food of infantry isnt going to do a lot vs templar
thx for the replay, going to take a closer look at it now.
Ya wont lie to you there he definantly wasnt the most talented terran, but eh its ladder. Ya some people like the viking thought to snipe the obs thats also why its good to feedback the Raven. If you wana run some games thought or just talk anything else over just talk to me on bnet (US) Bandino.322
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On October 12 2010 06:48 skatbone wrote:
Alaric, I agree, in that I have little trouble fending off Void Rays using iechoic's 1/1/2. But I do find that Phoenix are effective counters. I don't know what modification you make to the build, but the traditional 1/1/2 does not have stim for the first timing attack.
If I move out with four banshees (without cloak), 12 rines, a medivac, and a hellion or two, a toss army with 3 phoenixes, heavy zealots (to take out rines), a few stalkers, and a sentry or two handles the attack well. If I face this sort of composition, we usually trade armies and commence massing off of two bases.
I usually get the techlab when I start producing my first two banshees, then research stim asap. It's not ready for the push everytime (I usually wait for 5 banshees, perhaps a little more or specifically stim according to what the drop saw and the protoss' reaction — if I kill too many probes I don't push immediatly in case of an all-in desperation counterattack, for example).
I lost a game earlier this evening (2 AM here in France), but it was on Scrap Station and my opponent went colossus, then quite a few (~6 ?) sentries. On the timing of my push, I has to instead "wait" for him as we were both trying to cross the rock-freed short path and fighting on the bridge against colossus is suicide, so we fought on my side of the map and my margin wasn't broad enough to kill him immediatly afterwards.
The rest of the game was me failing at caughting him off guard and him abusing force fields and the lack of open areas of the map to obliterate my ground bio before I could get his colossi. So I guess it was pretty situational, and me failing to use drops to counter his map control.
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I'm not the best protoss ever, but in my experience against 1/1/2 banshee, just go fucking kill him, is a pretty solid counter, 3 gate with one immortal will break the wall, obs to get concave on the ramp ^^.
but might not work at higher level diamond.
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Just do 1 gate->cyber->robo. If he has techlab make an immortal before observer if not go str8 for observer.
If you scout him going some marine banchee 3-1-2 you can get out phoenix and collusus (wihtout range) before his push arrives. This is completely onesided and any terran who has experienced this will stop making this build ever again ^^
I really feel like 1 gate robo is the best build vs terran and easiest, since you can just react to whatever the observer shows you.
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wow a lot of helpful and positive comments at the moment rushing to templars for feedback seem the most logical choice of transition off the 1gate fe build
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As this game is so young, there is little experimentation in protoss builds using stargate AND robo.. it always seems to be one or the other. The spending in such a build is very awkward, I will admit. But lately vs terran I will always gate-core-robo chrono observer, and if you scout the ports, immediately throw down a stargate. I never have probelms with banshees if i've survived long enough to get a robo out. The problem comes with hellions do virtually any damage to my base. I swear if i lose 2-4 probes i don't have enough minerals for stalkers or enough gas for observers.
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On October 12 2010 10:37 Ender Wiggin wrote:
wow a lot of helpful and positive comments at the moment rushing to templars for feedback seem the most logical choice of transition off the 1gate fe build
If you're doing 1 gate FE, templars is not the way to go. The only way to get HTs to work is if you double gas quickly, and 1 gate FE relies on one gas for a very long time. Seriously, just go stargate/phoenix if you scout tech lab starport.
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On October 12 2010 10:49 whoopadeedoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 10:37 Ender Wiggin wrote:
wow a lot of helpful and positive comments at the moment rushing to templars for feedback seem the most logical choice of transition off the 1gate fe build If you're doing 1 gate FE, templars is not the way to go. The only way to get HTs to work is if you double gas quickly, and 1 gate FE relies on one gas for a very long time. Seriously, just go stargate/phoenix if you scout tech lab starport.
check out the 2nd replay posted, he demonstrates that templar can be the way to go... one thing i noticed though is that he gets his nexus VERY early even for a 1 gate FE, which leaves him super light on units for a while.
edit: http://www.mediafire.com/?v7esh8w1nc3r115 i think its this one
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Hmmm. that replay breaks my sc/computer for some reason. It activates my keyboards shortcut keys so pressing "e" (for example) will open up my windows explorer. O.o
I can't see how you get enough gas off one geyser to build HTs (even without robo/ob, which you absolutely need) unless you forego stalkers. I would love to see the replay though, but it's not working.
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i think you can get away with a very early nexus if you scout no gas units or a bunker on the terran front
also his templar timing was actually the 10 min mark so im going to give it a try
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Get sentries, like 4 sentries can 1 shot a PDD and GS their concentrated marine fire while your stalkers take over. you want to go fairly zealot light on this build as you will want your minerals in stalkers but get enough to tank for the stalkers. HT aren't going to help much because of the HT nerf where you can't feedback PDD and their marine count should be fairly low.
I would counter with a large gate push since his ground force will be weak, or you can put up a stargate and get phoenix to force them into vikings instead of more banshees. Blink will help you protect and attack as it allows you to get around the map faster and past their 1 or 2 bunker defense.
If they decide to continue this type of push upgrading armor with a forge/cannon to protect against harass would help out alot as zealot stalker have 1 armor, GS gives 3 and then with 3 armor upgrades thats 6 vs the marines 6 damage, as they will be dumping gas into banshee raven instead of upgrades and you will have an expansion on them.
You can go colosi but they already have 2 starports down so it seems risky to me as viking or banshee can really do a number on colosi for the cash. VR are expensive and die quickly to viking fire. might work for awhile but they will catch up. But like 5-6 gates and maybe 2 starports sounds good. You can bring in HT for marine control once the initial push stops. This is the only way i've found to cost effectively counter the 212 (2barracks1fac2port) build while being able to handle other builds like thor drops 3 rax and such.
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On October 12 2010 05:04 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Here's my thoughts.
You HAVE to go robo first... blind. You just have to. So you get your observer, scout this build, and must backtrack to a stargate. Now you have a somewhat useless robo. So you start making phoenixes, probably make a another gateway, but you can't get very many units b/c you made a useless robo and maybe a useless immortal. So your phoenixes may kill the banshees, but who cares? The marines will still kill you.
You kind of need to expand as soon as you see this, and start getting templar tech.
why not build a wp and warp in zealots/stalkers for a counter attack along with some void rays
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On October 13 2010 04:05 MKZSlice wrote:
Get sentries, like 4 sentries can 1 shot a PDD and GS their concentrated marine fire while your stalkers take over. you want to go fairly zealot light on this build as you will want your minerals in stalkers but get enough to tank for the stalkers. HT aren't going to help much because of the HT nerf where you can't feedback PDD and their marine count should be fairly low.
I would counter with a large gate push since his ground force will be weak, or you can put up a stargate and get phoenix to force them into vikings instead of more banshees. Blink will help you protect and attack as it allows you to get around the map faster and past their 1 or 2 bunker defense.
If they decide to continue this type of push upgrading armor with a forge/cannon to protect against harass would help out alot as zealot stalker have 1 armor, GS gives 3 and then with 3 armor upgrades thats 6 vs the marines 6 damage, as they will be dumping gas into banshee raven instead of upgrades and you will have an expansion on them.
You can go colosi but they already have 2 starports down so it seems risky to me as viking or banshee can really do a number on colosi for the cash. VR are expensive and die quickly to viking fire. might work for awhile but they will catch up. But like 5-6 gates and maybe 2 starports sounds good. You can bring in HT for marine control once the initial push stops. This is the only way i've found to cost effectively counter the 212 (2barracks1fac2port) build while being able to handle other builds like thor drops 3 rax and such.
i didnt know there was a patch with feedbacking pdd's
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I never have a problem if I have some phoenix out and a obs.
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I wanted to tell you that the simple solution to this problem was to remember that "the enemy door is DOWN" but...
Actually I've had a lot of trouble with this build too at my slightly lower ~1150 level, but when I beat it it has been due to the power of that beautiful little snowglobe the sentry, or to phoenix but with two very different approaches.
With phoenix, I'm pushing out from my base, trying to contain and engage teh terran in an attack-retreat battle near his front. This can either force wasted PDD, allow me to snipe reinforcing raven/banshees, or maybe do a little harass of the probe line with phoenix making him come back while I keep macro'ing up.
With more sentries, I'm waiting on my colossus, and in the mean time I am zealot/sentry heavy. This has two benefits: if he casts the pdd too close to you sentry can focus fire it down (they aren't affected), or you can FF split him with and kill most of his army with Z's. In this case, I usually only have 4-5 stalkers, which can be a dangerous gamble, but honestly this is usually my army comp if I didn't scout the star tech and am caught scrambling... >.<
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On October 13 2010 08:40 Ender Wiggin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 04:05 MKZSlice wrote:
HT aren't going to help much because of the HT nerf where you can't feedback PDD and their marine count should be fairly low.
i didnt know there was a patch with feedbacking pdd's
Sorry for double post, but just saw this. WHAT? WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN!
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im also a 1400 toss and i also fe agaisnt terran. when i see that i just macro hard robo citedel and get blink fast. blink stalkers pretty much destroys banshees before they can even run. das if they go double starport. if they are going single starport i would no get citedel but tech collusus. be sure to chrono boost collosus cause from my experence the timing push comes a little earlier than when the collosus comes out. hope this helped
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vs double baracks double starport you NEED colossi (or storm) otherwise stimmed marines will shoot everything in the ground
have tested it vs mass-stalkers with shield --> no chance
have tested it vs chargelost --> no chance
remember, the dangerous damage dealers are the marines, banshees are there to clean up afterwards; so you #1 priority must be to kill the marines FAST - for this you need area of effect damage, aka colossi because templar will almost always be too late;
if you FE get tons of stalkers together with the colossi, if you didn't go 2 gate robo stargate (even 1-2 phoenixes will suffice vs banshees after the marines melted to the colossi, no need to overextend on them)
still a very hard to beat combo
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On October 12 2010 03:38 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Doesn't matter what you target. The PDD can not be taken down by projectile fire before it's energy is used up, regardless of health. That's the whole point of the PDD.
As far as I understand, as Protoss, you can take down the PDD with units such as:
- Sentry
- Archon
- Void Ray
- Carrier
- Mothership
High templars' psionic storms and feedback will however not affect the PDD which is deemed to be a structure.
As terran, you could take down the PDD with:
- Marine
- Ghost
- Auto-Turret
As zerg, you would only have the Infested Terran.
I do not speak of experience as I play only toss but here is the source of information: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/PDD
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Always, ALWAYS, use High Templars against Terran. Feedback will solve your Banshee and PDD problem instantly, even if you don't have storm yet (which at 9mins you will NOT). It even helps against fast Thors. I've seriously only lost two games against Terran since incorporating HTs into my main force.
Throw down your TC just after your Robo and then your Archives right after it finishes. If he doesn't rush early with Marine/Marauder then you're set for any Banshee/Raven garbage. Think about it: Terran only has one air unit that doesn't use energy. If you go Gateway heavy with HTs/Sentry/Stalker, then you will have no trouble fending off any Terran air anything else as well. Unless you get a Colossus, Vikings will be pretty much useless, and you can deal with them using Storm and Blink. Your Robo should then be making a constant stream of Observers if it is not down anything else.
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On October 13 2010 23:03 TheGiz wrote:
Always, ALWAYS, use High Templars against Terran. Feedback will solve your Banshee and PDD problem instantly, even if you don't have storm yet (which at 9mins you will NOT). It even helps against fast Thors. I've seriously only lost two games against Terran since incorporating HTs into my main force.
the terran timing push will come at around ~11
and it can have ~25 marines + 1-2 marauders, 2 medivacs, raven, 2 banshees
if you can win vs this with just chargelots, then you had way superior positioning since pure chargelots go down fast vs stimmed marines; stalkers are not cost-effective vs banshees anyway
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steal their gas when u scout after first pylon built. should delay for a minute since by then they only have 2 marines to take the gas down.
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I've been having real trouble with a terran that walls off with a bunker.
The scout probe dies to the first marine that comes out. Then i poke with a stalker to see that no-one seems to be home but the 2 marines in the bunker keeps shooting at me so i better gtfo.
So because of the wall i have to get obs right. And here is the problem really.
As im sitting on 2 gate robo waiting for the obs to give me some info. Obviously i still have to do something meanwhile. If its 1/1/2 i need 5 stalkers to deal with the banshees but sometimes when the obs gets to the destination there is a MMM in the makings and in some maps with an expo.
And then im pretty much ready to quit at that point as i have only gw units, mostly stalkers, and a robo.
In my experience colossi < reactor viking and teching to storm takes ages and all kind of expanding can take place until I can move down my ramp.
Like does that bunker mean something in terrans build?
And why is protoss better than terran in late game?
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On October 13 2010 22:28 nostra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 03:38 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Doesn't matter what you target. The PDD can not be taken down by projectile fire before it's energy is used up, regardless of health. That's the whole point of the PDD.
As far as I understand, as Protoss, you can take down the PDD with units such as: - Sentry - Archon - Void Ray - Carrier - Mothership High templars' psionic storms and feedback will however not affect the PDD which is deemed to be a structure. As terran, you could take down the PDD with: - Marine - Ghost - Auto-Turret As zerg, you would only have the Infested Terran. I do not speak of experience as I play only toss but here is the source of information: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/PDD
Yep, but the only thing that you will have by this timing push is sentries, and they are rarely built in Toss 1 gate FE (usually one at most).
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On October 12 2010 07:14 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 07:09 KaoReal wrote:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Polt_timing_attack_(vs._Protoss)Polt timing attack, comes with reactor rines and marauders in constant production, with stim, 2 banshees, and a raven with PDD at your base @ 10 minutes. It is far too much infantry for you to try to squeeze some phoenix out. This build is actually designed to kill protoss who get a colossus to deal with the reactor'd rines. If you dont get the colossus, you die to rines. If you do, you're too committed to get anything to deal with banshees or PDD. Anyone know the protoss solution to this one yeT? The fast templar/forge build can stop the polt timing attack. You can have a couple templar with storm, you can feedback the air units and storm the bio and do pretty well.
The problem is that the polt timing attack comes way before HTs can reasonably come into play. 1 base HTs is terrible it simply outright dies to most builds and is abused by pretty much everything else.
Fast expanding is the better solution, the attack comes after you've began to benefit from the expo and cheesy stuff like hellion drops can be stopped with minimal losses if you do decent simcity and do your best to see it coming. Marine/banshee/raven can die to mass zealot/stalker/sentry simply because of power and numbers and there will be so many stalkers that PPD will only stop one volley.
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You need to get that observer out ASAP if they are walling off. There is no way to know for sure what to expect if you don't get that god damn observer. Seriously, ALWAYS gate-core-robo-gate against terran who wall off. Chrono the obs out and see whats up. Also, try keep your probe alive as long as possible, if you can see the factory going down then thats a big help to you, or a second rax etc.
Once obs is in their base, you need to see, analyse and respond.
Two techlab starports? Sentries, make another observer for cloak, I myself make a stargate and chrono phoenixes, especially if they make a raven.
3rax? Chrono out immortal, more zealots / sentries, put up twilight for charge. If its a long rush distance, you may be able to put up a robo bay and get colossi out.
6 rax marine? Robo bay asap for colossi, sentries to hold the ramp.
Honestly, people fuss way too much over colossi and HT. You don't need them so early on. With good positioning and forcefields, a gateway force is capable of holding any early terran push, especially on maps with a ramp. Sure, grab them later, but you are going to lose if you skimp on your units in place of early tech.
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On October 14 2010 09:56 LtLolburger wrote:
Honestly, people fuss way too much over colossi and HT. You don't need them so early on. With good positioning and forcefields, a gateway force is capable of holding any early terran push, especially on maps with a ramp. Sure, grab them later, but you are going to lose if you skimp on your units in place of early tech.
Yep. Mass stalkers beats that push, with a sentry or two to GS. There's a lot to be said for simply having more shit than him.
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On October 14 2010 10:04 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 09:56 LtLolburger wrote:
Honestly, people fuss way too much over colossi and HT. You don't need them so early on. With good positioning and forcefields, a gateway force is capable of holding any early terran push, especially on maps with a ramp. Sure, grab them later, but you are going to lose if you skimp on your units in place of early tech. Yep. Mass stalkers beats that push, with a sentry or two to GS. There's a lot to be said for simply having more shit than him.
This pretty much, alot of players are tech hungry and try to tech to beat things instead of relying on the power of gateway units to survive. People bash gateway units especially vs MMG but the reality of it is that chargezeal/stalker/sentry can handle it pretty well with competent forcefield use and guardian shield. People want to go HTs so they simply rush to them instead of macroing and smoothly transitioning into a balanced army that includes HTs.
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EPT
