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I watched a game yesterday where a top protoss player was out macroing and winning fights against drewbie but failed to kill planetary fortresses 6 times because of scv's repairing them. Those attacks most of which he did not focus the scv's cost him 100 units just to pf's and it made me wonder how fast scv's repair so I went and tested it out. These numbers were only recorded 1-3 times.
medivac heals about 13 hp/s
scv repairs a tank for about 5 hp/s
scv repairs a thor and bc for 9 hp/s
scv repairs a bunker for 14 hp/s
scv repairs a barracks for 19 hp/s
scv repairs an orbital command for 15 hp/s
scv repairs a planetary fortress for 14 hp/s
It seems the speed of repair is not just a function of the hp of the target but the repair time and the cost is 25% the actual cost to heal the whole target. I'm not sure why a unit that is so cheap should be allowed to heal faster than a medivac and be on such a low priority for attack.
Some other ways of looking at this is if your trying to kill a pf and 20 scv's start to repair it your trying to damage through the healing of 24 medivacs. A marine does about 6 dps which is well above average but if a scv is repairing at 9hp/s it's about 50% better than a marine for the same cost. I'm not sure if this is different from sc1 but I don't really like how volatile and complicated the formula for repair is and I think a lot of people underestimate it.
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Interesting rates. It is fairly difficult for Protoss players to break PFs, which is why sometimes psionic storms are used to kill SCVs rather than tackling the PF itself.
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the medivac heals closer to 13.5 hp/sec
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How does the cost of repair factor in? I am curious (and was saying this while obsing someone last night) about how much investment goes into repairing structures. Is it the same in BW? Is it too cost-beneficial?
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I think it's just Based on hitpoints and buildtime.
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SCV repair rate sometimes is quite ''overpowered'' when it's about to repair Hellions/Thor ect ect...
I think Blizzard should keep an eye on it!
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You can get the values with the editor, each unit or building simply has a repair time stat.
It's not a function that takes anything into account, it's just something which is manually set for every individual unit or building. It's usually set to be equal to the respective build time, but it differs a bit in a few cases.
The repair costs 25% of the resources the unit normally costs, i.e. you can repair 4 units from "0" to full hp for the same price as building a new one.
Medivac heal: ~9.09 hp/second
Repairs:
Bunker: 10 hp/s(a repair time of 40)
PF: 10 hp/s(a repair time of 150)
Thor: 6.(6) hp/s(a repair time of 60)
BC: 6.(1) hp/s(a repair time of 90)
Hellion: 3 hp/s(a repair time of 30)
Ghost Academy: 31.25 hp/s(a repair time of 40)
These are all game time, real time is 1.4375 times faster(medivac is ~13.061, PF is 14.375, e.t.c.)
If you're looking at the hp/s repair rate then you won't find any consistency, while it would've been much better if they standardized it around repair rate.
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Yeah I don't understand why people try to take out the planetary fortress instead of the scvs at the expo.
Lets say there is 22 scvs at the fortress. The planetary fortress has 1500 hp while the scvs have 990 hp, meaning that the scvs are much eaiser to bring down and this is ignoring that scvs can be spashed and the 3 armor the PF has! The PF costs 700 resorces while the scvs cost 1100. Lastly the PF takes 150 seconds to build while the scvs take 374 seconds to build.
In every way the scvs are the weak expensive link to a PF expo. Furthermore if you do take out all the scvs and still have a good enough army left you can take out the fortress finally. It makes no sence to target the fortress to me at all
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On October 06 2010 04:12 SCdinner wrote:Yeah I don't understand why people try to take out the planetary fortress instead of the scvs at the expo. Lets say there is 22 scvs at the fortress. The planetary fortress has 1500 hp while the scvs have 990 hp, meaning that the scvs are much eaiser to bring down and this is ignoring that scvs can be spashed and the 3 armor the PF has! The PF costs 700 resorces while the scvs cost 1100. Lastly the PF takes 150 seconds to build while the scvs take 374 seconds to build. In every way the scvs are the weak expensive link to a PF expo. Furthermore if you do take out all the scvs and still have a good enough army left you can take out the fortress finally. It makes no sence to target the fortress to me at all
The problem is that Zerg mainly have melee units or short ranged units. So trying to shift target 22 scvs repairing this massive structure while doing all the other things needed is an extreme pain. Same way attack move works. You COULD target all manually but really no one has the apm to do that. That's why many have said that changing AI targeting will fix most issues.
Although this fix will work, is it really the best design?
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For melee units, run them over there and click hold position. They will just attack whatever is close to them. Move what's not hitting stuff. That will get the lings to hit scvs. Not perfect, but it works.
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Should Blizzard make two separate 'attack' commands? Attack nearest units, attack nearest structure?
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They should make workers have the same priority as attacking units in all situations.
In the case of PF, you would have to move your army inside the mineral line, so the SCVs are closer and are the preffered target.
This both adds some position based micro and improves the situation with PFs.
Standardizing repair rate also wouldn't hurt, since it will weaken the all-ins with a single thor or BC with mass scvs, while improving the repair rate for most other units, since these two repair the fastest.
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SCV repair costs resources so you cannot directly compare it to Medivacs healing. Strong repairing has always been one of the critical factors of the Terran race, I don't think it should be changed.
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I don't know about the smart ai for tanks and that but wouldn't it make sense if for a regular attack command it was simply attack the first unit you come across. if you want another target you get to micro?
Edit: Off topic. sorry got carried away reading the posts.
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If you attack a PF, you need some form of splash to take out the SCVs or forcefields on top of the PF to prevent repair. Otherwise you'll lose a disproportionate amount of units.
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I think the easiest fix would just be to have repairing scvs generate threat. It's not even that big a deal considering medivacs already generate threat and they obviously don't attack.
However, people have been complaining about this for awhile. Especially in the case that scvs can be hidden behind the large model of the thor. If you've ever played against it, you'd realize that in some cases you basically have to pixel hunt to get at the scv. Maybe use the insert-delete keys?? The point is that its completely ridiculous and idiotic to deal with the AI.
Blizzard has not taken any action against this after all this time, even though it clearly would be a simple fix. I honestly think Blizzard doesn't consider it to be a problem, even though I personally think it's a load of bull.
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On October 06 2010 05:05 DoubleReed wrote:
I think the easiest fix would just be to have repairing scvs generate threat. It's not even that big a deal considering medivacs already generate threat and they obviously don't attack.
However, people have been complaining about this for awhile. Especially in the case that scvs can be hidden behind the large model of the thor. If you've ever played against it, you'd realize that in some cases you basically have to pixel hunt to get at the scv. Maybe use the insert-delete keys?? The point is that its completely ridiculous and idiotic to deal with the AI.
Blizzard has not taken any action against this after all this time, even though it clearly would be a simple fix. I honestly think Blizzard doesn't consider it to be a problem, even though I personally think it's a load of bull.
The problem with switching repairing scvs to high priority is that this action could be abused by the terran.
For example you could have a flying damaged barracks with a bunch of scvs underneith it behind their army, when your army engages theirs they could set all their scvs to repair it and then all of a sudden your hydras and roaches stop engaging the terran army and start running by them to attack the scvs instead.
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On October 06 2010 04:31 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 04:12 SCdinner wrote:Yeah I don't understand why people try to take out the planetary fortress instead of the scvs at the expo. Lets say there is 22 scvs at the fortress. The planetary fortress has 1500 hp while the scvs have 990 hp, meaning that the scvs are much eaiser to bring down and this is ignoring that scvs can be spashed and the 3 armor the PF has! The PF costs 700 resorces while the scvs cost 1100. Lastly the PF takes 150 seconds to build while the scvs take 374 seconds to build. In every way the scvs are the weak expensive link to a PF expo. Furthermore if you do take out all the scvs and still have a good enough army left you can take out the fortress finally. It makes no sence to target the fortress to me at all The problem is that Zerg mainly have melee units or short ranged units. So trying to shift target 22 scvs repairing this massive structure while doing all the other things needed is an extreme pain. Same way attack move works. You COULD target all manually but really no one has the apm to do that. That's why many have said that changing AI targeting will fix most issues. Although this fix will work, is it really the best design?
I guess this problem is further compounded by the fact the PF is so tall, it blocks out the sight of the scvs repairing it from above.
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wow! nice work. ive always assumed that scvs repair everything at the same rate. and gawd do i hate planetary fortresses. prolly the only thing i think is imba so far. i recently lost a game where i was 50 supply ahead, and my enemy just had tanks behind this pfortress so i thought i could run in and snipe it with 10 immortals 4 cols and a ton of stalkers, but lost half my shit and never was able to recover. and the pf survived!
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On October 06 2010 05:11 SCdinner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 05:05 DoubleReed wrote:
I think the easiest fix would just be to have repairing scvs generate threat. It's not even that big a deal considering medivacs already generate threat and they obviously don't attack.
However, people have been complaining about this for awhile. Especially in the case that scvs can be hidden behind the large model of the thor. If you've ever played against it, you'd realize that in some cases you basically have to pixel hunt to get at the scv. Maybe use the insert-delete keys?? The point is that its completely ridiculous and idiotic to deal with the AI.
Blizzard has not taken any action against this after all this time, even though it clearly would be a simple fix. I honestly think Blizzard doesn't consider it to be a problem, even though I personally think it's a load of bull. The problem with switching repairing scvs to high priority is that this action could be abused by the terran. For example you could have a flying damaged barracks with a bunch of scvs underneith it behind their army, when your army engages theirs they could set all their scvs to repair it and then all of a sudden your hydras and roaches stop engaging the terran army and start running by them to attack the scvs instead.
They should not have a higher priority, they should have equal priority.
When they are closer they will get attacked, so for example if you surround a thor+scvs with your zerglings, then the zerglings will automatically target the scvs since they are closer.
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The problem with switching repairing scvs to high priority is that this action could be abused by the terran.
For example you could have a flying damaged barracks with a bunch of scvs underneith it behind their army, when your army engages theirs they could set all their scvs to repair it and then all of a sudden your hydras and roaches stop engaging the terran army and start running by them to attack the scvs instead.
I don't think that's how it works. I'm saying treat scvs the same way as medivacs. I never see medivacs have this sort of issue (except maybe with mutas) so scvs shouldn't either. I've never seen units try to swing in to attack medivacs if they're in the back of the bioball.
No, that's not the issue. The issue IMO is that this makes repair significantly weaker and apparently that's not ok.
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On October 06 2010 05:20 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 05:11 SCdinner wrote:On October 06 2010 05:05 DoubleReed wrote:
I think the easiest fix would just be to have repairing scvs generate threat. It's not even that big a deal considering medivacs already generate threat and they obviously don't attack.
However, people have been complaining about this for awhile. Especially in the case that scvs can be hidden behind the large model of the thor. If you've ever played against it, you'd realize that in some cases you basically have to pixel hunt to get at the scv. Maybe use the insert-delete keys?? The point is that its completely ridiculous and idiotic to deal with the AI.
Blizzard has not taken any action against this after all this time, even though it clearly would be a simple fix. I honestly think Blizzard doesn't consider it to be a problem, even though I personally think it's a load of bull. The problem with switching repairing scvs to high priority is that this action could be abused by the terran. For example you could have a flying damaged barracks with a bunch of scvs underneith it behind their army, when your army engages theirs they could set all their scvs to repair it and then all of a sudden your hydras and roaches stop engaging the terran army and start running by them to attack the scvs instead. They should not have a higher priority, they should have equal priority. When they are closer they will get attacked, so for example if you surround a thor+scvs with your zerglings, then the zerglings will automatically target the scvs since they are closer.
Ah that makes sence. That would still require a some micro but not an unfair amount.
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With all of the changability built into the sc2 engine one would think you should be able to customize your own target priority tree. That would give each player a new tactic/counter-tactic
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I'm all for changing the attack priority aswell (making army and workers equal). This would also help with ling runbys, it's so annoying if I run lings into a main, and because there's 2 marines half a screen away, my lings don't attack the workers but start running towards the marines.
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EPT
