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On September 19 2011 04:00 arena_say_what wrote:
I worked my way into diamond by just going 14/14 expo 21 in every game agaisnt every matchup. Is it possible to do the same working my way towards masters? Or should I be trying out different build orders? If so what's good :| to me zerg doesn't seem to have that many build orders other than 14/14 and 15 hatch
well you can hatch first in z v t (like 15 hatch / 15 pool) or go for 11 pool 18 hatch in z v p (sort of substitute to hatch first) ; in z v z, you can 9 pool, 14 gas 14 pool, hatch first...
So basically, 14 gas 14 pool works for everything, but nowadays I would say it is not the most efficient way to go in many situations (like against terran, few people would speedling expand, most hatch; against toss on a FFE map, it's kind of useless to get zergling speed very early... and so on).
The thing then is that it sometimes leads to a completely different game.
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On September 19 2011 04:00 arena_say_what wrote:
I worked my way into diamond by just going 14/14 expo 21 in every game agaisnt every matchup. Is it possible to do the same working my way towards masters? Or should I be trying out different build orders? If so what's good :| to me zerg doesn't seem to have that many build orders other than 14/14 and 15 hatch
You can still stick to this, but against master Terrans I would prefer going 15hatch/14pool, its freakin' hard to stop hellion harrasses with a 21 expo, since the spine crawler isn't gonna up in time.
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By the way, could someone indicate me how to micro infestors (especially neural parasite)? cause I feel lost with this, every time I by now engage a protoss I am systematically wasting my infestors for nothing... I don't know, I just can't manage to engage properly... it has come to the point that I am now really afraid to engage any kind of significant protoss army with colossi^^.
any tips? what is the list of things you are telling yourself when engaging? (I am thinking more precisely of zergling/infestor armies)
thanks!
Macpo
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On September 19 2011 06:40 M1cha84 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 04:00 arena_say_what wrote:
I worked my way into diamond by just going 14/14 expo 21 in every game agaisnt every matchup. Is it possible to do the same working my way towards masters? Or should I be trying out different build orders? If so what's good :| to me zerg doesn't seem to have that many build orders other than 14/14 and 15 hatch You can still stick to this, but against master Terrans I would prefer going 15hatch/14pool, its freakin' hard to stop hellion harrasses with a 21 expo, since the spine crawler isn't gonna up in time.
This. Without 15h or similiar, reactor hellion is REALLY DIFFICULT to deal with
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On September 19 2011 06:22 craag wrote:
So lets say, for whatever reason, a few of your overlords start taking fire and you notice that in a moment you will be supply blocked.
Is it better to immediately use your remaining larva/minerals to replace those lost overlords, or to quickly crank out some units before the supply block hits?
Are you going to die in the next 25 seconds? If yes, build attacking units. If no, replace lost overlords.
It's similar to deciding between drones or zerglings.
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On September 19 2011 06:41 Macpo wrote:
By the way, could someone indicate me how to micro infestors (especially neural parasite)? cause I feel lost with this, every time I by now engage a protoss I am systematically wasting my infestors for nothing... I don't know, I just can't manage to engage properly... it has come to the point that I am now really afraid to engage any kind of significant protoss army with colossi^^.
any tips? what is the list of things you are telling yourself when engaging? (I am thinking more precisely of zergling/infestor armies)
thanks!
Macpo
Positioning is the key to using infestors properly. You want to spend most of your time trying to setup a good place to engage. When the range nerf goes live this will be even more difficult. Basically you want the protoss army to be in an open area but not spread out to much. And you want to be on creep if at all possible. If you can't see what you're engaging and don't have the speed buff it can be really difficult.
Keep your infestors and zerglings in seperate control groups. Fungal first then neural. Don't let your zerglings get there to far ahead of your infestors as they will all die pointlessly. Make sure your fungals kill the sentries or templar first. If you can't keep the colossus neural'd till the end of the fight walk them back and target them down.
If the protoss goes heavy on zealots and templar start baneling bombing. Yes infestor/zergling can still work in that situation but I believe its like a thousand times easier and more effective to baneling bomb them.
Oh and kill observers!. Your chances of losing the fight increase dramatically if the protoss can see your army before you engage. Protoss don't like replacing observers it takes valuable robotics build time up.
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I cant seem to deal with late game terran that mixes in ghosts. I usually go broods but ghosts have snipe. I try ultralisks and ghost snipe those too. Infestors are nullified by EMP so I'm really lost. This is especially true when they have siege tanks as well, it just seems impossible to break
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Seemed like Sen expected some sort of complete all in from Select. Although I think he should have expected some heavy dropship play since thats really the only safe way Select can be aggressive cross map like that. If he had stuck with roach/ling/bane he probably woulda done better. Selects dropships were brutal and he just didn't have enough units to deal with them and a push at the same time while trying to get mutas out.
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United States223 Posts
On September 18 2011 08:05 Hawk2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 18 2011 07:54 MrBitter wrote:
What's up with the ZvZ meta-game these days?
It's all baneling-expand into mass spines into mutas, and I'm really not sure how to play against it without just doing the exact same thing.
Anyone have a good feel for this new play-style right now? You can go roach hydra infestor still, in fact roach play is forced on most maps on the ladder pool, it really all is dependant on the size of the maps and architecture, in general the bigger the map the better mutalisks become. Maps like Antiga Shipyards and Tal'darim alter are the ones I'm assuming you're talking about and on those you can still go roach hydra infestor you just have to be really defensive and mass up a strong count of infestors and go for a death push at max, the game plan against mutalisks on a large map is to get a critical number of high energy infestors to roll your opponent with who will have inevitably less infestors than you simply because he did go for mutas. of course in the case of the player going mutalisks more map control, bases, and a possible ultralisk switch compensates. That's the general zvz meta-game with mutalisks at the moment. Here's a good replay of how LaLush played against me when I went mutalisks http://replayfu.com/r/1kXgJp
i mean, this game probably looks a lot different had you not lost so much on his baneling attack. it delayed your 3rd way too much. 9:30 into the game he was up 45-28 in drones.
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On September 19 2011 07:14 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 06:41 Macpo wrote:
By the way, could someone indicate me how to micro infestors (especially neural parasite)? cause I feel lost with this, every time I by now engage a protoss I am systematically wasting my infestors for nothing... I don't know, I just can't manage to engage properly... it has come to the point that I am now really afraid to engage any kind of significant protoss army with colossi^^.
any tips? what is the list of things you are telling yourself when engaging? (I am thinking more precisely of zergling/infestor armies)
thanks!
Macpo Positioning is the key to using infestors properly. You want to spend most of your time trying to setup a good place to engage. When the range nerf goes live this will be even more difficult. Basically you want the protoss army to be in an open area but not spread out to much. And you want to be on creep if at all possible. If you can't see what you're engaging and don't have the speed buff it can be really difficult. Keep your infestors and zerglings in seperate control groups. Fungal first then neural. Don't let your zerglings get there to far ahead of your infestors as they will all die pointlessly. Make sure your fungals kill the sentries or templar first. If you can't keep the colossus neural'd till the end of the fight walk them back and target them down. If the protoss goes heavy on zealots and templar start baneling bombing. Yes infestor/zergling can still work in that situation but I believe its like a thousand times easier and more effective to baneling bomb them. Oh and kill observers!. Your chances of losing the fight increase dramatically if the protoss can see your army before you engage. Protoss don't like replacing observers it takes valuable robotics build time up.
Thanks for the answer, it helps pretty much
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It takes 18 corruptors to 1-shot a colossus at a cost of 2700 minerals, 1800 gas and 36 supply. 8 colossi cost 2400 minerals, 1600 gas and 48 supply.
Assuming no corruptors die, and upgrades are matched, it thus takes 8 shots ( 16 game seconds ) to kill all the colossi. Not sure how many roaches would remain by then, it would depend on what the stalkers do.
So the way I see it, infestors with NP are way more cost-effective atm but will die like flies in 1.4 due to shortened range.
So what's the best way to handle P deathball?
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On September 20 2011 18:53 halcy1 wrote:
It takes 18 corruptors to 1-shot a colossus at a cost of 2700 minerals, 1800 gas and 36 supply. 8 colossi cost 2400 minerals, 1600 gas and 48 supply.
Assuming no corruptors die, and upgrades are matched, it thus takes 8 shots ( 16 game seconds ) to kill all the colossi. Not sure how many roaches would remain by then, it would depend on what the stalkers do.
So the way I see it, infestors with NP are way more cost-effective atm but will die like flies in 1.4 due to shortened range.
So what's the best way to handle P deathball?
Broodlord, infestor. Max on melee upgrades. Protoss late game army isn't the most mobile force so be sure to abuse that with crackling and infested terrans.
Don't send your brood, infestor group after expansions. They are to slow. If you do attack with them it has to be either attacking the protoss army or attacking his main where the production buildings are. Instead use our cracklings and burrowed infestors to defend and attack expansions.
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On September 20 2011 18:53 halcy1 wrote:
It takes 18 corruptors to 1-shot a colossus at a cost of 2700 minerals, 1800 gas and 36 supply. 8 colossi cost 2400 minerals, 1600 gas and 48 supply.
Assuming no corruptors die, and upgrades are matched, it thus takes 8 shots ( 16 game seconds ) to kill all the colossi. Not sure how many roaches would remain by then, it would depend on what the stalkers do.
So the way I see it, infestors with NP are way more cost-effective atm but will die like flies in 1.4 due to shortened range.
So what's the best way to handle P deathball?
The biggest part of the late game PvZ is the actual engagement, in optimal settings for Zerg, you've been harassing some and have kept the Protoss on minimal bases and you are about to engage his death ball, now as he moves out you want to engage in a wide-open area, and get a complete surround with your lings, they do AMAZING dps and rip apart everything, you just have to get them to actually fight, colossi can't even kill them all even with splash because you have a surround and they aren't all humping the next in line to death. You can get a surround by dropping a few fungals or NPing colossis, which causes the Protoss to suffer immediate large dps losses from colossi, and another big thing is to keep fungaling his forces, it is HUGE dps and not just a hold, your lings will make you proud
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What is better?(vs terran):
+1 armour or +1 melee for lings?
I see nestea holding the 9 minute mark push with lings and roaches. Is this viable/better than ling banes? (note: terran had no stim and no medivacs)
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On September 20 2011 20:13 Ninja_Bread wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 18:53 halcy1 wrote:
It takes 18 corruptors to 1-shot a colossus at a cost of 2700 minerals, 1800 gas and 36 supply. 8 colossi cost 2400 minerals, 1600 gas and 48 supply.
Assuming no corruptors die, and upgrades are matched, it thus takes 8 shots ( 16 game seconds ) to kill all the colossi. Not sure how many roaches would remain by then, it would depend on what the stalkers do.
So the way I see it, infestors with NP are way more cost-effective atm but will die like flies in 1.4 due to shortened range.
So what's the best way to handle P deathball? The biggest part of the late game PvZ is the actual engagement, in optimal settings for Zerg, you've been harassing some and have kept the Protoss on minimal bases and you are about to engage his death ball, now as he moves out you want to engage in a wide-open area, and get a complete surround with your lings, they do AMAZING dps and rip apart everything, you just have to get them to actually fight, colossi can't even kill them all even with splash because you have a surround and they aren't all humping the next in line to death. You can get a surround by dropping a few fungals or NPing colossis, which causes the Protoss to suffer immediate large dps losses from colossi, and another big thing is to keep fungaling his forces, it is HUGE dps and not just a hold, your lings will make you proud
i feel like this cant ever possibly happen. +3 colossi are going to kill lings almost instantly and any decent toss is going to have enough sentry energy to just forcefield you out or cliffwalk away.
i think the key to beating a toss deathball is just... not let them get a deathball. i honestly cant see many other ways. it's too damn strong. thankfully zerg mid-game is crazy strong vs toss. need to pounce there simply. 4 base zerg vs 3 base toss (esp if you rush to hive tech) is quite good as well as 3 base zerg vs 2 base toss which i think is just insanely strong if you macro correctly.
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I'm having a lot of trouble with Forge Fast Expand 'Toss.
If I try to hatch first, he cannon rushes behind the mineral line, if I pool first, he's a bit ahead in economy, then if I try to take a quick third, I can't get a big enough army up to defend his 5-6 gate. If I stay on 2 and try to push, he just spams forcefields and I can't do any meaningful damage. If I early rush and try to punish, he usually scouts it and gets cannons + sentries up in time to keep me from doing anything. If he doesn't 5-6 gate and instead just macros, I lose to the endgame deathball.
I can win a fair amount of my ZvPs unless they FFE, then I win maybe 5% of them.
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On September 21 2011 16:39 xFortune wrote:
I'm having a lot of trouble with Forge Fast Expand 'Toss.
If I try to hatch first, he cannon rushes behind the mineral line, if I pool first, he's a bit ahead in economy, then if I try to take a quick third, I can't get a big enough army up to defend his 5-6 gate. If I stay on 2 and try to push, he just spams forcefields and I can't do any meaningful damage. If I early rush and try to punish, he usually scouts it and gets cannons + sentries up in time to keep me from doing anything. If he doesn't 5-6 gate and instead just macros, I lose to the endgame deathball.
I can win a fair amount of my ZvPs unless they FFE, then I win maybe 5% of them.
If you macro correctly and don't supply block yourself to much when you take a fast third you can hold his 5-6 gate timing attack very easily.
I don't like advertising my stuff but this is a build I do vs forge fast expand http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259629
I have replays on there of me crushing 6 gate as well (or beating it at least).
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On September 21 2011 13:44 DW-Unrec wrote:
What is better?(vs terran):
+1 armour or +1 melee for lings?
I see nestea holding the 9 minute mark push with lings and roaches. Is this viable/better than ling banes? (note: terran had no stim and no medivacs)
bump
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EPT
