EPTEr most people will say +1 melee I believe, personally I prefer carapace but +1 melee is probably better as thats what every pro does it seems.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 96
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
Er most people will say +1 melee I believe, personally I prefer carapace but +1 melee is probably better as thats what every pro does it seems. | ||
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DW-Unrec
492 Posts
When I open speedling expand, can/how I hold an all-in where the opponent makes speedlings only? When I open speedling expand, how do I know if I'm safe to tech to roaches or macro up? | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On September 22 2011 07:09 DW-Unrec wrote: What is better?(vs terran): +1 armour or +1 melee for lings? I see nestea holding the 9 minute mark push with lings and roaches. Is this viable/better than ling banes? (note: terran had no stim and no medivacs) Here's a thread that analyses that. Armor seems to be ideal for stopping a marine/tank push. I think its a pretty big deal if your lings survive a siege tank shot. And if its an early push there's no way he's going to have +1 on his mech. Not to mention the extra hits your lings and roaches can take from marines. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187603 | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
It can be 2-rax, and sometimes the terran even does a 1 rax bunker rush, and has that annoying scv placement between the building hatch and minerals, and that can be hard to deal with as well. I think my main issue, though, is that I make too many lings, and I end up being so behind in drone count that I die to a marine-tank timing quite easily. Should I be building a spine crawler or more queens? How should I be looking to engage the marines/building scvs? | ||
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galtdunn
United States977 Posts
On September 22 2011 09:16 DW-Unrec wrote: I'm always confused when I play ZvZ, I have tons of questions: When I open speedling expand, can/how I hold an all-in where the opponent makes speedlings only? When I open speedling expand, how do I know if I'm safe to tech to roaches or macro up? When opening speedling expand (i.e. not going directly into roaches), you need to throw down a baneling nest with your first 50 gas after you research speed, and then make 2-4 banelings as soon as that is done (generally leave 2 on gas once you've finished speed). You throwing down a early hatch is you taking an economic lead, throwing down a baneling nest is the only way to defend against the mass speedling that some opponents follow up with. Well wait, what if he doesn't go mass speedling? Then YOU have the option to apply pressure on him. Early banelings are very dangerous in ZvZ, he will have to react with either a early roach warren or his own baneling nest, putting you on equal ground with him. You know if you're safe by scouting him. If he has expanded, you need to sneak lings into the main and see his tech (roaches, banelings, drone count, etc). If he hasn't expanded and is turtling, try getting an overlord in. When I play my best ZvZ, I am always scouting with a ling in his natural, shift click it to run (not attack move) behind his mineral line, with this you should see his army at the very least, and hopefully his drone count. This gives you your cue to either make units, or make drones. Also, spotting your opponents 3rd timing and Lair timing is extremely important. Generally, the winner of mid-late game ZvZs are whoever gets their third up first and successfully defends it wins (allows for more infestors, more larva, more queens, etc). | ||
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DW-Unrec
492 Posts
Should I switch to roaches while droning, then make an expansion when I have a OK number of roaches and/or drones, or make the expo when I see he also expo'ed? Considering we both went banes. Do you know any good ZvZ replays that you'd recommend to me?? | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On September 22 2011 09:16 DW-Unrec wrote: I'm always confused when I play ZvZ, I have tons of questions: When I open speedling expand, can/how I hold an all-in where the opponent makes speedlings only? When I open speedling expand, how do I know if I'm safe to tech to roaches or macro up? It's tough to come up with easy answers here because the match up is so volatile early on in the game. And the zerglings and banelings you make have almost zero late game value. But they are necessary to make it past early game. It's not like the other matchups. For example where you can see the protoss made a forge and 6 sentries and know for sure what he's going to be doing for the next 2 or 3 minutes. ZvZ you have to know what he's doing every 25 seconds. If you don't you're either going to be falling behind in drones or dying to an attack. It's totally unforgiving. But that's what overlords and speedlings are for. Good overlord spread is the cornerstone of good zvz early game. Make sure you cover all the paths to your base and all the places he can hide to morph banelings. And of course place an overlord behind his natural to count drones. Your zerglings want to be constantly checking the front of his base and poking in to see whats going on. So how do you know when to do anything in zvz? Scout. Here's something that I think a lot of zerg players are missing in early game zvz. Counter attacks. Don't just sit in your base with 20 lings trying to defend against 6 banelings and 8 zerglings. Split up your zerglings and attack him. The banelings won't get back there in time so he has to send only his speedlings and will likely only attack you with the banelings which can be handled by queens. Just keep in mind you don't want to be passive in this matchup. If you're only defending you're probably losing. | ||
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Slunk
Germany768 Posts
I have just recently switched back to zerg and droped quite some ranks on the ladder after being low masters with toss. A big problem I am having is that I don't know how to deal with protoss armies (kinda stupid because I always sucked at PvZ). Particularly the lategame deathball with ~5 colossi, some voidrays and a lot of blink stalkers seem to be unbeatable. Even if I have 6 bases and a strong economy, I seem to lose wave after wave. What is the perfect army composition to go for? I recongnize the strengh of both broods and infestors, but what should be the backbone of my army? Roaches are very inefficent and dont deal any damage, so stalkers just blink on top of them and kill my expensive tech units while the colossi stay alive. Thanks in advance for any help. | ||
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Madous
United States21 Posts
On September 23 2011 23:43 galtdunn wrote: When opening speedling expand (i.e. not going directly into roaches), you need to throw down a baneling nest with your first 50 gas after you research speed, and then make 2-4 banelings as soon as that is done (generally leave 2 on gas once you've finished speed). You throwing down a early hatch is you taking an economic lead, throwing down a baneling nest is the only way to defend against the mass speedling that some opponents follow up with. Well wait, what if he doesn't go mass speedling? Then YOU have the option to apply pressure on him. Early banelings are very dangerous in ZvZ, he will have to react with either a early roach warren or his own baneling nest, putting you on equal ground with him. You know if you're safe by scouting him. If he has expanded, you need to sneak lings into the main and see his tech (roaches, banelings, drone count, etc). If he hasn't expanded and is turtling, try getting an overlord in. When I play my best ZvZ, I am always scouting with a ling in his natural, shift click it to run (not attack move) behind his mineral line, with this you should see his army at the very least, and hopefully his drone count. This gives you your cue to either make units, or make drones. Also, spotting your opponents 3rd timing and Lair timing is extremely important. Generally, the winner of mid-late game ZvZs are whoever gets their third up first and successfully defends it wins (allows for more infestors, more larva, more queens, etc). Let's say you get your expo up and running with a couple spines, lings, and a few banes. Let's also say your opponent then expands himself and tries to start amassing Roaches. Where do you go from there? Every time this happens I just get rolled by 20-some roaches. I always get the urge to tech up to mutas, but then I feel like my army would be too small to hold off any roach aggression. | ||
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dama
19 Posts
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noeprellik
7 Posts
I would like to ask is it possible to hold 6 gateway push with mass +1/1 ling? and hold marine tank push about 20 marine and 4 tank @10:00 with mass +1/1 ling too? thanks 4 the advice | ||
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RebelLife
United States3 Posts
HOW DO YOU FIGHT IT OFF >:O ITS A PROTOSS BALL OF DEATH, EXCEPT YOU CAN'T KILL IT QQ Speedlings die off too fast. Banelings are negated due to hard shield (Not worth because of cost. Video of Immortal tanking 20 banelings  ). Hydras were overwhelmed. Roaches (Obviously) melted because they take extra damage, etc, etc.I don't want a "Oh, just scout it out and prevent them from doing this" sort of answer... just want to know how to counter them in a straight up fight. | ||
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CaptainPlatypus
United States852 Posts
On September 26 2011 13:08 RebelLife wrote: Recently I've been smacked by mass immortals... I don't know how that happened, but it did, and being a noob, I can't see any counters (Apart, obviously, from air. But when it happens, I just finish lair tech and an infestation pit. No spire.)... HOW DO YOU FIGHT IT OFF >:O ITS A PROTOSS BALL OF DEATH, EXCEPT YOU CAN'T KILL IT QQ Speedlings die off too fast. Banelings are negated due to hard shield (Not worth because of cost. Video of Immortal tanking 20 banelings ). Hydras were overwhelmed. Roaches (Obviously) melted because they take extra damage, etc, etc.I don't want a "Oh, just scout it out and prevent them from doing this" sort of answer... just want to know how to counter them in a straight up fight. Hydras rip immortals to shreds. In fact, they just straight-up rip protoss armies to shreds. Pity colossi and templar both absolutely wreck them - and pity about the speed. | ||
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OptimusYale
Korea (South)1005 Posts
On September 26 2011 13:08 RebelLife wrote: Recently I've been smacked by mass immortals... I don't know how that happened, but it did, and being a noob, I can't see any counters (Apart, obviously, from air. But when it happens, I just finish lair tech and an infestation pit. No spire.)... HOW DO YOU FIGHT IT OFF >:O ITS A PROTOSS BALL OF DEATH, EXCEPT YOU CAN'T KILL IT QQ Speedlings die off too fast. Banelings are negated due to hard shield (Not worth because of cost. Video of Immortal tanking 20 banelings ). Hydras were overwhelmed. Roaches (Obviously) melted because they take extra damage, etc, etc.I don't want a "Oh, just scout it out and prevent them from doing this" sort of answer... just want to know how to counter them in a straight up fight. I usually go mass roach infestor against toss, and the way I counter Immortals is to duck in, kill one, duck out. You need to target them down...not just A-click. Since you already invested in roaches this way you can keep the number down. Use the roaches to move in, then out, in then out. If you can snipe an immortal then your set...especially if you lose like 3-4 roaches. It also depends what else he has in the army. If its stalker immortal, lings will do well in mass if you can get the surround. If its zealot immortal then roaches, micro your roaches to pick off the zealots and then get away. Remember, if you have 20 roaches and they have 3 immortals and a handful of stalkers, move in and target down the immortals. Even with hardened shields they die very quickly to a focus fire with a lot of roaches. If they go mass immortal, then you needed to pressure the toss more, take down their numbers and delay the push for infestors/immortals | ||
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ishboh
United States954 Posts
I had taken my expo at about 20 food and would have liked to hold it, but ended up losing it and then the game due to the fact that I didnt stop him from getting up my ramp. should I have just cancelled the expo and secured the ramp with two queens and built some spines in my main? or should I have gone roaches? or should I have gotten a bling nest of my own (my bling micro is pretty terrible). edit: no replay as it was a long time ago, its just a situation that I find myself thinking over a lot. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 26 2011 13:08 RebelLife wrote: Recently I've been smacked by mass immortals... I don't know how that happened, but it did, and being a noob, I can't see any counters (Apart, obviously, from air. But when it happens, I just finish lair tech and an infestation pit. No spire.)... HOW DO YOU FIGHT IT OFF >:O ITS A PROTOSS BALL OF DEATH, EXCEPT YOU CAN'T KILL IT QQ Speedlings die off too fast. Banelings are negated due to hard shield (Not worth because of cost. Video of Immortal tanking 20 banelings ). Hydras were overwhelmed. Roaches (Obviously) melted because they take extra damage, etc, etc.I don't want a "Oh, just scout it out and prevent them from doing this" sort of answer... just want to know how to counter them in a straight up fight. Mass roach/ling works well vs it. I mean if they are doing a 1 base push of it roach/ling + spines is your best bet. if its off of an expansion and they do it you should be able to easily get enough roach/ling with infestors on the way if he has mass immortals. I have never had a problem vs immortals and this is how I fight it is with roach/ling and eventually adding in infestors. | ||
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zerker2strong
775 Posts
because since patch 1.4 i try to play without infestors the more roach hydra corrupter style but i just cant seem to win when he got more then 5 colossus out :/ ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-234634.jpg) | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On September 28 2011 04:51 zerker2strong wrote: can someone please help me by watching this replay against a protoss and give me some tips and pointers of what im doing wrong. because since patch 1.4 i try to play without infestors the more roach hydra corrupter style but i just cant seem to win when he got more then 5 colossus out :/ Honestly, there is no reason to change your playstyle after 1.4. If you look at the actual critical values changed by the fungal damage... quite honestly nothing has changed. In addition, nothing was done to buff roach/hydra/corruptor, it's still just bad. | ||
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CaptainPlatypus
United States852 Posts
On September 28 2011 04:51 zerker2strong wrote: can someone please help me by watching this replay against a protoss and give me some tips and pointers of what im doing wrong. because since patch 1.4 i try to play without infestors the more roach hydra corrupter style but i just cant seem to win when he got more then 5 colossus out :/ I'll watch this when I'm home from work and try to give replay/specific tips on winning with this composition, but I was having a lot of trouble with the same thing until recently. I just could never seem to beat deathballs once the colossus count got too high. The best solution I found was just going muta/ling/bling instead of roach. Map control from a super mobile, threatening, harass-friendly army means a bigger macro advantage, and protoss doesn't really have a straight-up counter other than phoenixes (storms and archons are both a LOT worse against muta than in bw, in my experience). You can more or less control the entire game with an upgraded muta/ling force, and if you see 2+ stargate phoenix, that's a good excuse to transition into a corruptor/broodlord force, which you'll have more than enough gas to clean up with thanks to the map control you got with muta/ling. On September 28 2011 05:02 Soluhwin wrote:Honestly, there is no reason to change your playstyle after 1.4. If you look at the actual critical values changed by the fungal damage... quite honestly nothing has changed. In addition, nothing was done to buff roach/hydra/corruptor, it's still just bad. In my play since then (and that of most zergs I've talked to) it's a lot harder to get off neural on colossi than before, which means it's really, really hard to keep your army alive. The only real options are having a different way to kill colossi (corruptors, mutas) or being a lot better at using infestors than I am. Since, well, I can't do the latter by definition, I choose to go for the former. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
I saw the 3 rax at his ramp at 5:46 with the fourth out of sight, and the earliest I could have seen them is 4:25. He had 23 workers and sent out 10 marines at 6:10, they reached my natural at 6:40. I only had 1 spine, 3 slow lings and 2 queens plus 21 drones, with 2 more spines just halfway done. So I obviously got wrecked. | ||
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