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On October 01 2011 19:50 aevealon wrote:
Silver Zerg here. Recently i've been losing to a roach/hydra mix in ZvZ. What would be a good response to this mix? I don't feel safe going only roach/infestors in the mid game as I can never trade evenly with him
Would going for roach/hydra myself be a good choice? Please advise.
Yes go roach/hydra yourself and then add infestors. Don't rush to infestors AND hydra immediatly cause then your army going to be weaker. All gonna depend on your army size and concave. Even if you got smaller army but very good surround then you might win a battle.
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On October 01 2011 02:07 charleeislegend wrote:Hi, I'm a gold level zerg (top 8 rank) yet in a zvz I cannot for the life of me defend against a muta harrass. I usually use hydras to try to defend but they just dont cut it, so I was wondering how do I defend against a early muta tech (either 1 base or early 2 base) while expanding to get my 3rd? (I'm never able to get my third safely cuz the person usually goes so many mutas. This would help immensely as every zvz I do they always go early muta (which seems pretty retarded only i cant stop it  ) btw, getting 7 zvz's and losing every one of them sucks.
one base muta is not viable, just mass lings and he would die since you will have 2 bases production.
against a 2 bases, it is dependent on your style. Roache hydra isn't terrible to be honest if you can hit the timing when he has a low number of muta and he is trying to expand to third. But a base trade is very likely because he will use lings and banelings and muta to counter attack. (not 100% on this, if he is prepared, lots of spines and lings can hold it fairly well))
Otherwise, roache infestors and hydra works too. At gold, I don't expect a good micro, so infestors would work wonder
Or if you have good mechanics, just go for muta ling baneling yourself.
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On October 01 2011 20:05 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 19:50 aevealon wrote:
Silver Zerg here. Recently i've been losing to a roach/hydra mix in ZvZ. What would be a good response to this mix? I don't feel safe going only roach/infestors in the mid game as I can never trade evenly with him
Would going for roach/hydra myself be a good choice? Please advise. Yes go roach/hydra yourself and then add infestors. Don't rush to infestors AND hydra immediatly cause then your army going to be weaker. All gonna depend on your army size and concave. Even if you got smaller army but very good surround then you might win a battle.
Actually it's best to get infestors first, on 2 base/4 gas and once you get on 3 base/6 gas you mix in hydras.
Argument being that while you fight in the open an equal cost roach/hydra comp should loose against a roach comp, infestors will allow you to defend that third base and will build up energy. In my experience it works better.
Edit : spelling
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On October 01 2011 20:40 NeonFox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 20:05 Alpina wrote:On October 01 2011 19:50 aevealon wrote:
Silver Zerg here. Recently i've been losing to a roach/hydra mix in ZvZ. What would be a good response to this mix? I don't feel safe going only roach/infestors in the mid game as I can never trade evenly with him
Would going for roach/hydra myself be a good choice? Please advise. Yes go roach/hydra yourself and then add infestors. Don't rush to infestors AND hydra immediatly cause then your army going to be weaker. All gonna depend on your army size and concave. Even if you got smaller army but very good surround then you might win a battle. Actually it's best to get infestors first, on 2 base/4 gas and once you get on 3 base/6 gas you mix in hydras. Argument being that while you fight in the open an equal cost roach/hydra comp should loose against a roach comp, infestors will allow you to defend that third base and will build up energy. In my experience it works better. Edit : spelling
Well it's close, but I personally find roach hydra better than roach infestor IF you get a good concave. That way not only all hydras are attacking (while not all opponent's roaches are) but fungals do not do much damage cause there aren't much stacked units.
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On September 28 2011 06:11 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
Any tips on holding off a 4rax attack in close positions on Shattered Temple when you go hatch first?
I saw the 3 rax at his ramp at 5:46 with the fourth out of sight, and the earliest I could have seen them is 4:25. He had 23 workers and sent out 10 marines at 6:10, they reached my natural at 6:40. I only had 1 spine, 3 slow lings and 2 queens plus 21 drones, with 2 more spines just halfway done. So I obviously got wrecked.
He was beating you in workers, and eco? That seems to be a mistake on your part, typically if I see a 3 or 4 rax I will make another 1 or 2 spines and a full batch of lings, then reevaluate armys on both sides and that will dictate my use of larvae, If you scout the 3-4 rax you should be able to hold it off while slowly building your economy on 2 base and eventually just drown him with your natural. After every battle you win where you have your spines and a couple lings still you can make like 5 drones, if he keeps pushing with his marine balls you will win. if he doesn't and goes back for a macro game thta is when you are in trouble. It's hard to tell when the terran will stop being aggressive and how many corners they will cut with their marine production, it may be a good idea to baneling bust them once they retreat for their expo because they shouldn't have tanks. but yeah, 21 drones and 2 larvae worth of lings just won't cut it when the terran effectively has 28 workers and churning out of 3 rax, you are doing something wrong.
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On September 25 2011 10:15 Madous wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 23:43 galtdunn wrote:On September 22 2011 09:16 DW-Unrec wrote:
I'm always confused when I play ZvZ, I have tons of questions:
When I open speedling expand, can/how I hold an all-in where the opponent makes speedlings only?
When I open speedling expand, how do I know if I'm safe to tech to roaches or macro up?
When opening speedling expand (i.e. not going directly into roaches), you need to throw down a baneling nest with your first 50 gas after you research speed, and then make 2-4 banelings as soon as that is done (generally leave 2 on gas once you've finished speed). You throwing down a early hatch is you taking an economic lead, throwing down a baneling nest is the only way to defend against the mass speedling that some opponents follow up with. Well wait, what if he doesn't go mass speedling? Then YOU have the option to apply pressure on him. Early banelings are very dangerous in ZvZ, he will have to react with either a early roach warren or his own baneling nest, putting you on equal ground with him. You know if you're safe by scouting him. If he has expanded, you need to sneak lings into the main and see his tech (roaches, banelings, drone count, etc). If he hasn't expanded and is turtling, try getting an overlord in. When I play my best ZvZ, I am always scouting with a ling in his natural, shift click it to run (not attack move) behind his mineral line, with this you should see his army at the very least, and hopefully his drone count. This gives you your cue to either make units, or make drones. Also, spotting your opponents 3rd timing and Lair timing is extremely important. Generally, the winner of mid-late game ZvZs are whoever gets their third up first and successfully defends it wins (allows for more infestors, more larva, more queens, etc). Let's say you get your expo up and running with a couple spines, lings, and a few banes. Let's also say your opponent then expands himself and tries to start amassing Roaches. Where do you go from there? Every time this happens I just get rolled by 20-some roaches. I always get the urge to tech up to mutas, but then I feel like my army would be too small to hold off any roach aggression.
You should typically respond to roaches with roaches of your own, it takes too many lings to kill 20+ roaches and that's larvae that could be used for your drones, if you are going to go mutas then you want to stave ups, get like 10 roaches and make enough spines to stop his push, 10 roaches and 4 spines will stop a LOT of attacks, especially when you have the mutas up and reinforce with lings into that.
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On October 01 2011 20:57 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 20:40 NeonFox wrote:On October 01 2011 20:05 Alpina wrote:On October 01 2011 19:50 aevealon wrote:
Silver Zerg here. Recently i've been losing to a roach/hydra mix in ZvZ. What would be a good response to this mix? I don't feel safe going only roach/infestors in the mid game as I can never trade evenly with him
Would going for roach/hydra myself be a good choice? Please advise. Yes go roach/hydra yourself and then add infestors. Don't rush to infestors AND hydra immediatly cause then your army going to be weaker. All gonna depend on your army size and concave. Even if you got smaller army but very good surround then you might win a battle. Actually it's best to get infestors first, on 2 base/4 gas and once you get on 3 base/6 gas you mix in hydras. Argument being that while you fight in the open an equal cost roach/hydra comp should loose against a roach comp, infestors will allow you to defend that third base and will build up energy. In my experience it works better. Edit : spelling Well it's close, but I personally find roach hydra better than roach infestor IF you get a good concave. That way not only all hydras are attacking (while not all opponent's roaches are) but fungals do not do much damage cause there aren't much stacked units.
I kind of find this to not be true. Hydras are not worth the gas cost when only on 2 base because you can just mass so many more roaches, infesters are extremely powerful, if your opponent has infesters you shouldh ave them as well. I like to get 4-6 infesters before my first push and then fully drone up my third while being aggressive then just tunneling my opponent.
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On October 01 2011 22:37 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 06:11 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
Any tips on holding off a 4rax attack in close positions on Shattered Temple when you go hatch first?
I saw the 3 rax at his ramp at 5:46 with the fourth out of sight, and the earliest I could have seen them is 4:25. He had 23 workers and sent out 10 marines at 6:10, they reached my natural at 6:40. I only had 1 spine, 3 slow lings and 2 queens plus 21 drones, with 2 more spines just halfway done. So I obviously got wrecked.
He was beating you in workers, and eco? That seems to be a mistake on your part, typically if I see a 3 or 4 rax I will make another 1 or 2 spines and a full batch of lings, then reevaluate armys on both sides and that will dictate my use of larvae, If you scout the 3-4 rax you should be able to hold it off while slowly building your economy on 2 base and eventually just drown him with your natural. After every battle you win where you have your spines and a couple lings still you can make like 5 drones, if he keeps pushing with his marine balls you will win. if he doesn't and goes back for a macro game thta is when you are in trouble. It's hard to tell when the terran will stop being aggressive and how many corners they will cut with their marine production, it may be a good idea to baneling bust them once they retreat for their expo because they shouldn't have tanks. but yeah, 21 drones and 2 larvae worth of lings just won't cut it when the terran effectively has 28 workers and churning out of 3 rax, you are doing something wrong.
Yep you're right, good analysis. Its one of those cases where I would have lost due to bad macro even if I did know the correct response, but its nice to know I can rely on lings and spines for next time.
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Diamond Zerg.
What is "standard game" zvp in 1.4? Do I actually need to go back to roach/corrupter and hope the toss messes up or I get ahead from early game shenanigans? Is 2 base all-in actually the only way to play now?
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I'm a bronze zerg right now.(just started playing a week ago) and i was curious how long should i drone for? when is the proper time to start making my army? basically i need to learn the basics of zerg just to get me started. and please don't say play another race besides zerg...a lot of people have been saying that to me. i really like zerg and i wish to stick with this race.
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On October 02 2011 19:03 Proxee wrote:
I'm a bronze zerg right now.(just started playing a week ago) and i was curious how long should i drone for? when is the proper time to start making my army? basically i need to learn the basics of zerg just to get me started. and please don't say play another race besides zerg...a lot of people have been saying that to me. i really like zerg and i wish to stick with this race.
You should always build drones because you will lose some against harass and one for each building, but 60-70 supply in drones is a good number to aim for. Also, try to build drones in waves and not just a few each time.
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On October 02 2011 19:03 Proxee wrote:
I'm a bronze zerg right now.(just started playing a week ago) and i was curious how long should i drone for? when is the proper time to start making my army? basically i need to learn the basics of zerg just to get me started. and please don't say play another race besides zerg...a lot of people have been saying that to me. i really like zerg and i wish to stick with this race.
The best optimal number would be around 75, some would beyond to 90 drones like Dimaga and turn them into spines in late game but most often, the games at bronze to gold level don't last all that long.
I would say Zerg is the hardest race to begin with, you need quite a lot of in game knowledge. Make sure you are familiar with the other race's buildings and units and counters etc.
Only then you can start knowing when is safe to make drones, when is not.
You also need to be able to scout around well so you are not caught off guard from some weird pushes.
Always poke his front ramp with a ling to check what you can see, if you can't see too much, sac an overlord.
One very good build I used was IceFisher, it is quite cheese immune because of 4 queens and spines and spores if necessary. Only not suitable for ZvZ
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On October 02 2011 19:03 Proxee wrote:
I'm a bronze zerg right now.(just started playing a week ago) and i was curious how long should i drone for? when is the proper time to start making my army? basically i need to learn the basics of zerg just to get me started. and please don't say play another race besides zerg...a lot of people have been saying that to me. i really like zerg and i wish to stick with this race.
The proper time to start making your army is about 30 seconds before your opponent attacks you. You can usually get some idea of this by scouting with a drone or zergling. Broadly speaking
-if you see 2 gateways and no cyber core, or 2+ barracks and no expansion or other tech buildings, you can expect an attack around 5-6 minutes. Be careful though because they could just keep the army they make with these buildings back at their base and expand behind it, so you need to go back to droning if they don't attack.
-if a protoss has built a forge or nexus first, probably no attack till around 9 minutes.
-otherwise expect an attack around 7 minutes or slightly later.
Those are just guidelines of course, leave a zergling or two outside his ramp and run up every minute or so to get a glimpse of his army and structures.
In the end you'll have to figure out most of this on your own, and expect many losses when you build your army too soon or too late. Also a common mistake I still make is to forget to go back to making drones after I make my army to stop his first attack. Good times to drone in the mid-game are
-when you've just stopped his attack by killing most of his army
-when you see him construct bunkers or cannons at his base.
when you see him take a 2nd base and don't think you have the army to stop him doing so
Like the other guy said, stopping for good at 70 drones is a pretty good target, just replace any drones lost to harassment or construction afterwards.
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Zerg static defense placement? I just played a ZvP with a fast third against FFE and they opened double stargate. I ended up losing my third because the spore in my mineral line couldn't hit the other side of the hatch. Similar thing with terran drops, where do I put my spines? If I stack them up on one side they just go around them, while spread out, they can pick them off one at a time.
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On October 02 2011 22:48 Sigil wrote:
Zerg static defense placement? I just played a ZvP with a fast third against FFE and they opened double stargate. I ended up losing my third because the spore in my mineral line couldn't hit the other side of the hatch. Similar thing with terran drops, where do I put my spines? If I stack them up on one side they just go around them, while spread out, they can pick them off one at a time.
Later in the game static defense just becomes something to slow down harassment.
I usually stop void ray harass with a spore in the mineral line and queens to pick of the voids, they're more like a safezone.
For marine drops lategame you'd best go for 4 spines all around your hatch, that would be just enough to slow them down. Don't expect to able to place enough spines to stop a drop with just those.
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http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)ZeuS_vs_(P)Rei/14129
What did I do wrong in that replay? I feel like I macroed well, hit all my injects initially. However he started to contain me and I just didn't have enough roaches. Could I have made more roaches initially?
Thanks for help in advance.
By the way I am high gold
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On October 02 2011 23:10 Baseic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 22:48 Sigil wrote:
Zerg static defense placement? I just played a ZvP with a fast third against FFE and they opened double stargate. I ended up losing my third because the spore in my mineral line couldn't hit the other side of the hatch. Similar thing with terran drops, where do I put my spines? If I stack them up on one side they just go around them, while spread out, they can pick them off one at a time. Later in the game static defense just becomes something to slow down harassment. I usually stop void ray harass with a spore in the mineral line and queens to pick of the voids, they're more like a safezone. For marine drops lategame you'd best go for 4 spines all around your hatch, that would be just enough to slow them down. Don't expect to able to place enough spines to stop a drop with just those.
I wanna just add something about this. Those "4 spines aroudn the hatch" are similar to how Terran Missle Turrets aren't actually to "stop" your mutas for example. they are just to slow the mutas down so the terran's forces can deal with the mutas, before they can do too much damage to the econ. Same with spines for zerg defending drops.
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On October 03 2011 10:44 zeOllie wrote:http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)ZeuS_vs_(P)Rei/14129What did I do wrong in that replay? I feel like I macroed well, hit all my injects initially. However he started to contain me and I just didn't have enough roaches. Could I have made more roaches initially? Thanks for help in advance. By the way I am high gold
Next time, try moving out to do a big attack with your +1/+1 roaches as your 3rd comes online - play around with working in burrow/tunneling claws as well if you can, to make the force fields ineffective, but otherwise just contain him and try to establish a fourth.
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I'm curious as to some new ways to deal with 6 gate. What do you all like to do?
Edit: 6 gate after forge FE.
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Hi all,
I'm a Silver League Zerg who's been playing casually for about a year. I primarily play 2v2 with a friend who plays Terran, and we fought our way up from low level Bronze after some horrible placement matches.
Here's the deal:
After grinding our way into the top 8 of Silver, we've hit a wall. Our wins and losses are evening out, and sometimes we have very bad streaks. It's been so annoying that I've considered going protoss (why? because on the rare occasion the three or so occasions that I selected Protoss by accident in a 2v2 match, I've been able to easily win against much higher ranked players by doing a simple cannon rush or cheesing up to VR) but have managed to keep myself from doing so. I want to master Zerg, and I think the race is very fun.
My team mate is pretty capable, and I suspect I'm the bottleneck. Our games usually last 20-35 minutes, and in mid to late game, I feel pretty useless, mostly contributing cheap meat to ground forces and trying to use specialized units like Mutas and Infestors to gain the upper hand (with some success, but when not, it's a disaster).
Here are the things I find the most challenging:
1. I'm great on my first expand but slow on my second. Very slow. I've heard that Zerg should have 3 bases by around 14 mins... i'm not there, and when I am, that third base almost always gets stomped very soon after being built. That third base very often gets killed two, three, even four times, and that's taught me to often not bother. I don't know how to properly defend a third.
2. I am useless against late game Protoss, especially protoss death balls with voids. My team mate will send a good chunk of units, and I'm usually in there with a lot of roaches, some lings, hydras. I have always heard that Infestors are the best contributor, but due to the need to unburrow for fungal, I almost always lose all of my infestors when there's a big push like that, and we end up losing. When it comes to the big Protoss pushes, I don't know what to do. Corruptors agains Colossi? Sure, if they ever make it past the stalkers.... They don't. So I don't bother.
3. On early harass, I tend to feel pretty horrible. If I go with lings, it seems almost all-in, and if the enemy has a wall, its wasted. If I go with early muta, i can do a bit of damage, but in silver league it seems that most people are prepared for this and it ends up feeling like a waste of gas. Sometimes I score a homerun, but it tends to be against other zerg, as we tend to have crappy anti air to start.
4. Broodlords: I rarely get them and rarely try. The investment seems too high, and even with support they tend to die very quickly.
5. Micro: The truth is that I'm not able to do a lot of the high level micro that some great zerg players can pull off. If there's a big engagement, I'm just not good enough to micro my infestors AND target fire with hydras AND make sure my air doesn't box up etc etc etc. I feel like I almost need to brute force it with all but say one combat group. I can micro a batch of infestors as long as I don't have to worry too much about the rest of the units... but, again, it rarely works out.
So I'm not sure what to do. 2v2 has some big challenges. The other problem I have is that all the videos and tutorials out there, the ones that focus on zerg in 2v2... they don't note patch dates etc, and I know the info is old by the time I see it. I'm not sure what other people do in 2v2, but my team mate -hates- gas transferring to me for early large mutas, so his early contribution (which is great) is to wall off our common choke when possible. Sometimes we specialize, but our early timed push (7:30) tends to be marines, marauders + roaches, lings. It's been working less well as we've gone up.
I'm not sure if I should be early harassing, just focusing on macro, going Spanishiwa style, etc. We scout OK, but maybe I'm not good enough to react yet.
If there are any good tactics you guys could recommend based on what I'm saying here, things that would help us get better, maybe move to Gold, I'd appreciate the insight. I want to stick to zerg, but I feel like i'm missing something. Maybe its macro, maybe its not 'getting' unit coposition..... maybe i'm just crappy. Who knows!
I watch a lot of Day[9], PsyStarcraft etc, read some in the forum.... but I need a dedicated Zerg resource, like a Day[9] who's dedicated to helping zerg.... anyone like that out there? Do we have a Yoda? Is there a Zerg Machiavelli who can teach me the non-obvious things I'm missing??
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EPT
