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HelloSon
United States456 Posts
what's the current ZvP metagame at with the new patch? Before, I went roach/ling/infestor to try and deny the third but on some maps, it's hard to deny the third and the infestor nerf weakens the build somewhat. I'm running into more and more protoss who turtle for the eventual vr/col deathball and the infestor nerf made the deathball impossible to stop. I'm seeing some ling/muta/infestor play or roach/hydra doomdrops off 3 base. Any ideas? | ||
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CaptainPlatypus
United States852 Posts
On October 04 2011 15:26 HelloSon wrote: Masters Z here, what's the current ZvP metagame at with the new patch? Before, I went roach/ling/infestor to try and deny the third but on some maps, it's hard to deny the third and the infestor nerf weakens the build somewhat. I'm running into more and more protoss who turtle for the eventual vr/col deathball and the infestor nerf made the deathball impossible to stop. I'm seeing some ling/muta/infestor play or roach/hydra doomdrops off 3 base. Any ideas? One thing I've seen (and done) more since the patch is 3 hatch muta, with an overseer scout to instead power roach/ling/spine if you're getting 6/7 gated. I'm only plat though, so your guess is a lot better than mine! | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On October 04 2011 14:38 Chaosvuistje wrote: Because as I said, I need to have a timing that hits BEFORE the Protoss' third kicks into overdrive. If I get my third I will not be able to fully saturate it as quick as a Protoss can chrono out probes unless I make nothing but drones. If he does any pressure at all, he will take the probe lead and with a large sentry energy pool and cannons he will take his third without me being able to do a damn thing about it. Another thing is that the entire attack at its core is designed to be a powerful all in that puts the Protoss to sleep. The large baneling cloud to take out the main bulk of the Protoss army in the form of sentries and Stalkers, while the Roaches flood into the production and keep their numbers low so you can wreck their base. If you don't do as much damage, your next attack will be delayed by a ton since you won't have any tech except upgrades and drop tech. Transitioning to spire during the all in does not make sence since you should never go for a third and tech at the same time unless you are certain that you are going to do a lot of damage. And if you're certain of that anyway, getting more roaches up is better anyway because you'll know for sure that he is done for. Not unimportant is if the Protoss DOES go for a stargate later, which he can do in response if I take my third and saturate it, I will have invested in tech that does not work as well. That is why a Roach-ling Baneling drop build is all in, and that isn't the way I want to play anymore. The whole match up has just gone stale with all in after all in happening on both sides of the match up, and there is no dynamic like there is in ZvT. It's either the person all inning winning, or losing and having the opponent sieze control of the game to slowly put an end to the game. It isn't fun and has never been, and I wish I could just play PvP everytime I hit a P on the ladder. But unfortunately that option does not exist so I won't be able to play that on the ladder unless I raceswitch altogether, which I won't do because again PvT and PvZ does not correlate well to how I want to play my game out. I still don't get what you say, you'll get your third a long time before the protoss and will saturate it before him, and you'll do that before investing into drop tech. Taking myself as an exemple is bad so just watch korean pros that use this, or watch sen he plays like this a lot. He always takes an early third before teching, he doesn't always kill the protoss with the drops and usually transitions into broodlords. Baneling drops is not any way an allin, except if for you roach hydra corrupter is an allin as well, as is roach infestor or any time you commit to a strat. Edit : This strat is very mineral intensive as well so you'll have gas to make infestors or transition without problems. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On October 04 2011 18:13 NeonFox wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2011 14:38 Chaosvuistje wrote: Because as I said, I need to have a timing that hits BEFORE the Protoss' third kicks into overdrive. If I get my third I will not be able to fully saturate it as quick as a Protoss can chrono out probes unless I make nothing but drones. If he does any pressure at all, he will take the probe lead and with a large sentry energy pool and cannons he will take his third without me being able to do a damn thing about it. Another thing is that the entire attack at its core is designed to be a powerful all in that puts the Protoss to sleep. The large baneling cloud to take out the main bulk of the Protoss army in the form of sentries and Stalkers, while the Roaches flood into the production and keep their numbers low so you can wreck their base. If you don't do as much damage, your next attack will be delayed by a ton since you won't have any tech except upgrades and drop tech. Transitioning to spire during the all in does not make sence since you should never go for a third and tech at the same time unless you are certain that you are going to do a lot of damage. And if you're certain of that anyway, getting more roaches up is better anyway because you'll know for sure that he is done for. Not unimportant is if the Protoss DOES go for a stargate later, which he can do in response if I take my third and saturate it, I will have invested in tech that does not work as well. That is why a Roach-ling Baneling drop build is all in, and that isn't the way I want to play anymore. The whole match up has just gone stale with all in after all in happening on both sides of the match up, and there is no dynamic like there is in ZvT. It's either the person all inning winning, or losing and having the opponent sieze control of the game to slowly put an end to the game. It isn't fun and has never been, and I wish I could just play PvP everytime I hit a P on the ladder. But unfortunately that option does not exist so I won't be able to play that on the ladder unless I raceswitch altogether, which I won't do because again PvT and PvZ does not correlate well to how I want to play my game out. I still don't get what you say, you'll get your third a long time before the protoss and will saturate it before him, and you'll do that before investing into drop tech. Taking myself as an exemple is bad so just watch korean pros that use this, or watch sen he plays like this a lot. He always takes an early third before teching, he doesn't always kill the protoss with the drops and usually transitions into broodlords. Baneling drops is not any way an allin, except if for you roach hydra corrupter is an allin as well, as is roach infestor or any time you commit to a strat. Edit : This strat is very mineral intensive as well so you'll have gas to make infestors or transition without problems. In my research of over 250 ZvP games ( yes, I have been experimenting with Baneling drops since January this year, as seen by my two guides about it here on TL ) I have found that getting a quick third does not strengthen your attack in any way, it just delays it by a lot. And I AM watching EVERY ZvP/PvZ I can find on streams. I've tuned in to CatZ, Destiny, idrA, Dimaga and the GSL series. And I will tune in to Code A just to note things down. I have never taken this match up lightly and have been innovating since the early start of WoL. Even then, that isn't the point. I'm trying to find a STABLE midgame that can deal well with all kinds of options AND can be a threat to a quick third-toss. I can't rely on doing damage with baneling drops all the time, so that is a situational midgame. In ZvZ there are multiple midgame strategies that can hold well against a variety of enemy compositions, same as ZvT. But in ZvP I have not yet found any composition that does well or transitions well against the huge variety of options Protoss has. There's always the case where Protoss just blindly hard counters you at random in any of the builds that I have tried. All I want to know is a midgame that does not have a hard counter, rather just soft counters so I can rely on outmicroing or out macroing my protoss opponent instead of relying on rolling the dice and picking a build that sometimes does well, and sometimes gets completely shat on. And Baneling drops or Infestors are not the answer, believe me. This strategy should also work on all the current ladder maps, because not all of them allow for a quick-third like is the standard in ZvP in pro play right now. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On October 04 2011 18:47 Chaosvuistje wrote: In my research of over 250 ZvP games ( yes, I have been experimenting with Baneling drops since January this year, as seen by my two guides about it here on TL ) I have found that getting a quick third does not strengthen your attack in any way, it just delays it by a lot. And I AM watching EVERY ZvP/PvZ I can find on streams. I've tuned in to CatZ, Destiny, idrA, Dimaga and the GSL series. And I will tune in to Code A just to note things down. I have never taken this match up lightly and have been innovating since the early start of WoL. Even then, that isn't the point. I'm trying to find a STABLE midgame that can deal well with all kinds of options AND can be a threat to a quick third-toss. I can't rely on doing damage with baneling drops all the time, so that is a situational midgame. In ZvZ there are multiple midgame strategies that can hold well against a variety of enemy compositions, same as ZvT. But in ZvP I have not yet found any composition that does well or transitions well against the huge variety of options Protoss has. There's always the case where Protoss just blindly hard counters you at random in any of the builds that I have tried. All I want to know is a midgame that does not have a hard counter, rather just soft counters so I can rely on outmicroing or out macroing my protoss opponent instead of relying on rolling the dice and picking a build that sometimes does well, and sometimes gets completely shat on. And Baneling drops or Infestors are not the answer, believe me. This strategy should also work on all the current ladder maps, because not all of them allow for a quick-third like is the standard in ZvP in pro play right now. Ah I get what you say now, I was talking more about a late baneling drop which yes can not let you punish a quick third protoss right away and forces you to go into agression mode before he can reap too many from that third, and you are looking for a build that can be more flexible. The way I play it is that solid three base roach ling and then baneling drops if he goes for robo tech or infestors if heavy stargates, or mass roach with upgrades against templars. But yeah I agree transitions are the weak points and a smart protoss can turtle against bane drops and push out with a death-ball while you are trying to transition out of it, by no means bane drops are the answer to everything protoss but it's the only thing that I found working for me against colossi heavy protoss armies, maybe i'm just bad at playing this way but roach hydra corrupter just gets smashed and faces the same transition problems. I also agree on the quick third problem on some of the maps, you either have to go for a later third and fall behind more and more in eco against the protoss as the game goes or risk taking a far away one and lose it. What I don't like about ZvP is what you pointed out; the lack of flexibility you can find in ZvT for exemple, everything is too rigid. Let me know if you find that midgame you look for, i'd be interested! | ||
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ZephyrOSc2
2 Posts
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MagicMule19
82 Posts
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AlmightyRaiden
Mexico59 Posts
On October 04 2011 14:42 CaptainPlatypus wrote: Hard to give specific advice without knowing more about how you want to play, but my go-to macro framework in each matchup is 3 Hatch 1 Gas ZvP, Ice Fisher ZvT, and 2 Base Muta ZvZ. Thanks for the answer, i play in the "league of legends"....bronze...since 3 weeks but i really got to like zerg and want to try it out before i get good with toss and maybe lazy to change. I like the builds you've suggested but probably a bit too risky at my level?, the 2 base muta sounds doable, what i meant with my question is more of a safe opener if that makes sense? Thanks | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
and another game here. http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Mendarius_vs_(Z)Tamerlane/14162 In the 1st one I thought I did ok with droning off 3 bases and maxing out, I just have no idea how to beat a blinkstalker colossus army. In the 2nd one I sort of half committed to a roach attack at 40 drones and then lost my 3rd to a counterattack. Would this strat be acceptable if I had executed it better? Should I just try even earlier aggression, or still try for the lategame? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On October 04 2011 23:52 ZephyrOSc2 wrote: Hi, I'm having a problem against Forge FE on Shattered Temple. Basically, from what I understand the correct response to scouting a FE is to expand your self, because they have invested resources into their expansion. But the third and fourth on Shattered Temple are blocked by rocks, delaying your expansions greatly. Do you have any suggestions of some sort of counter play that can slow down the protoss death ball, or any of their other plans that allows for time to expand without getting out macroed? Or is that map just slightly favored to a Protoss fast expand? You take the natural of the close positions base. At least thats what I do. Need to be aggressive vs protoss with drops and just forcing pushes to try to trade armies best you can. Don't want to let protoss just take bases and get a big army its incredibly strong. | ||
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_zEK
Sweden63 Posts
Infestors feels really useless, if not used for neural parasite but they usually get target fired by tanks and if i only move in with my roaches they get demolished too soo im really stuck. I have been trying muta play too but that gets easily locked down with each thor on expansion with 1-2 turret support. ._. When it comes to ZvP i have been suffering extremely many losses since the latest infestor nerf. I have been experementing with some Muta/ling play and even though i manage to kill lots of workers/pylons/buildings and even deny expansion i usually end up dying to the protoss pushes anyway. I'm not really sure what to transition after my mid game muta play phase has passed. (Archons are the main issue) | ||
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B o A
90 Posts
after watching dimaga vs hasuobs, dimaga used a style where he gets to 4 bases, puts down a ton of spines, stays on roach ling infestor and techs to broods asap. my question is what is the concept of this style ? i read a post by a mod where the zerg is supposed to counterattack as much as possible while the spines/infestors delay the push and your counterattack kills their economy. so how fast am i supposed to tech to hive? sacrifice upgrades for it or not. also, wouldnt putting so many spines before your 3/4th is saturated hurt you? or is the gas just worth the bases? thanks alot ! | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On October 05 2011 13:14 B o A wrote: hey fellow zergies after watching dimaga vs hasuobs, dimaga used a style where he gets to 4 bases, puts down a ton of spines, stays on roach ling infestor and techs to broods asap. my question is what is the concept of this style ? i read a post by a mod where the zerg is supposed to counterattack as much as possible while the spines/infestors delay the push and your counterattack kills their economy. so how fast am i supposed to tech to hive? sacrifice upgrades for it or not. also, wouldnt putting so many spines before your 3/4th is saturated hurt you? or is the gas just worth the bases? thanks alot ! Main ideas: Build tons of drones. Take tons of bases. Make yourself impossible to attack. Always threaten to counter. Win with Broods. It works because of how long Toss has to sit in their base and ramp up to that ultimate army. The infestors and the spines, and even the potential for counter attacks are all just stall tactics. Typically hive will start around 13-14 minutes with Greater Spire hopefully being complete by 15-15:30. You'll often notice that Zergs playing this style will make upwards of 90-95 drones. This is so that they can throw down 20-30 spines when they realize Toss is reaching 150 supply or so (and thus threatening to leave his base) and still manage to have a decent economy. It's really a pretty straightforward play style. When it works out, Zerg ends up with an Army that's exceptionally hard for Toss to fight heads up. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On October 05 2011 04:48 _zEK wrote: What to do against a terran that goes thor/helion/tanks? Infestors feels really useless, if not used for neural parasite but they usually get target fired by tanks and if i only move in with my roaches they get demolished too soo im really stuck. I have been trying muta play too but that gets easily locked down with each thor on expansion with 1-2 turret support. ._. It depends totally on how he goes Tank/Thor/Hellion. If he goes blueflame hellion into thor to combat mutalisks, he probably won't move out for quite a while. If you scout 2 factories off of one base or three facts off of two bases somehow, getting a roach warren and roughly 5 roaches for defense is a godsend because it helps you kill their only way of harassment which is hellion runby's. Getting a third while your lair is building is great too because he won't be able to break it any time soon. If he goes for tank first ( very rare ) just expand to your third very quickly and get a macro hatchery. A huge flood of zerglings will completely crush him if he wants to take his third quickly and he won't be able to get up to mid without endangering his whole game completely. Once you get those three bases up, you should decide if he has a lot of tanks or not. If he is skimping on tanks in favour of Thors, getting up a gigantic swarm of banelings should do the trick nicely because it will devour the hellion count easily allowing for your Zerglings and mutalisks to clean up. If he is heavy on tanks, having a huge flock of mutalisks should already do the trick, but this is rare. In any case, you should always be on 3 or 4 bases when against this composition. And if he doesn't attack, just tech up quickly and get more bases, put pressure on him by getting higher tech quicker to force him to move out. If he doesn't, broodlords will end his game easily. If he does, getting up Ultralisk/Speedbane with +2/+2 upgrades should be enough to crush him when he finally gets too close. For more info: http://raa-media.nl/blog/starcraft2/zvt-survival-of-patient#vsmech | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
On October 04 2011 15:26 HelloSon wrote: Masters Z here, what's the current ZvP metagame at with the new patch? Before, I went roach/ling/infestor to try and deny the third but on some maps, it's hard to deny the third and the infestor nerf weakens the build somewhat. I'm running into more and more protoss who turtle for the eventual vr/col deathball and the infestor nerf made the deathball impossible to stop. I'm seeing some ling/muta/infestor play or roach/hydra doomdrops off 3 base. Any ideas? Recently, I watched several zvp replays featuring Nerchio and Dimaga and, in both of their games, they opened the mid game with roach/corrupter. It appears infestors aren't in style any more. In my zvp's I've had better luck opening roach/corrupter once they start getting colossi. I'm finding more P's willing to just go double robo and pump out colossi while turtling on two bases then attempt a big ol' push. | ||
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freewareplayer
Germany403 Posts
On October 04 2011 18:47 Chaosvuistje wrote: I need to know a definitive midgame that allows me to scout and respond propperly. I need a way to reliably deny their third without putting myself at a huge risk for the lategame. And I need to know a unit mix that will ALWAYS work regardless of their build in some way. You could try Mondragons style which is really roach heavy in mid game, its is getting more popular, as other people said Dimage and Nerchio seem to do it more and more to (not a suprise from nerchio tho bein in the same team as mondragon). He tries to get to 3 base full saturation asap, with a reasonably timed lair. After the lair is completed you want: Roach Speed, Burrow, Overlord Speed and Drop and then just pump roaches from 3 bases like theres no tomorrow. Then you keep dropping his main and natural and while he cleans that up, just charge in the third and snipe the nexus quick, then get out again. Just keep doing this, throw the roaches away who cares about units, were Zerg. Trading them for his third and tech buildings in his main is more than good. For total frustration: Snipe cannons in his bases with the drops, and if he comes to clean it up just borrow with the roaches to use them later. While the first drop/push you add more expansions, he cant leave his base anyway without it being an all in. If he does decide to all in at some point, which usually they do after getting their 3rd/4th sniped for the fifth time, make sure youo can adjust your unit composition quick to whatever you need, altho mostly by the time they do, you are already on roach infestor broodlord. This does not work well vs 2 base turtle protoss tho, since the area they have to cover then is just too small to snipe any nexus without huge losses. TLDR: I think this strategy covers most of the points you want: - Midgame scouting with overlord speed - Shutting down thirds by focus firing it while you do drops elsewhere - Roach with burrow does great vs any 6 gate, and it also transfers well into roach infestor broodlord later - while immortals are obviously really good against pure roach this build will still always work in some way, because of the drops, your suiciding your roaches to destroy his base constantly, that works no matter what he is killing your roaches with If you want replays of it, mondragon uploaded a replay pack that you can check out if you want: http://www.aceresport.com/uk/downloads/details/9.htm | ||
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vahgar.r24
India465 Posts
Objective - I want to improve my creep spread Current Hotkey Setup- 5- All Hatches (generally 3 with 1 macro in base- dont last moret than that TT) 6- All queens ( 1 in main, 2 in nat) Method of larvae spawning - Hit 6, (select queens), hit 6 again x 2 times and spwan hatches thought backspace key. This is all good. Problem - Do I keep a separate queen @ hotkey 7 at my nat JUST to throw down tumours? Binding all of them at 6, the camera pans only to the hatches and not the edge of the creep which then I forget to spread which is the problem. But, putting hotkey 7 on a sep queen involves more macro also. Hope Im clear.. TLDR - the creep queen is on a sep hotkey or the base inject queen grp hotkey? | ||
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They_
Japan62 Posts
Is there a way to come out ahead against this build? Is there something that could be considered nearly a build order win against this build? | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On October 05 2011 22:34 vahgar.r24 wrote: Gold Zerg here - Objective - I want to improve my creep spread Current Hotkey Setup- 5- All Hatches (generally 3 with 1 macro in base- dont last moret than that TT) 6- All queens ( 1 in main, 2 in nat) Method of larvae spawning - Hit 6, (select queens), hit 6 again x 2 times and spwan hatches thought backspace key. This is all good. Problem - Do I keep a separate queen @ hotkey 7 at my nat JUST to throw down tumours? Binding all of them at 6, the camera pans only to the hatches and not the edge of the creep which then I forget to spread which is the problem. But, putting hotkey 7 on a sep queen involves more macro also. Hope Im clear.. TLDR - the creep queen is on a sep hotkey or the base inject queen grp hotkey? Do whatever you think will be effective. Personally I am trying to get in the habit of extending the creep whenever I inject all my hatches. I thought about hotkeying a specific queen, but sometimes I would not have that creep queen - not to mention I want to spread creep in multiple locations. The only surefire, consistent way is simply to click the minimap and go there. | ||
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freewareplayer
Germany403 Posts
What unit composition/tactic do i need when i face Thor/Hellion/Tank as main army, some vikings, some banshees and about 2 ravens for PDD? The PDDs makes Corruptors and Mutas useless, so my broodlords just die to the vikings and even a big amount of Mutas will fall to the Thors + vikings without doing anything thanks to the pdd, Roaches alone vs tank thor + banshee doesnt go well after that... I dont even have a clue on how to kill that, apart from never letting it happen, but if the Terran turtles hard enough its not like you can really prevent it. | ||
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